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    Help required with kanji

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    Reinberger

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Reinberger on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:36 pm

    NBK wrote:That's key, and my comment still stands ...
    Generally, of course, no question.
    NBK wrote:... In a closed performing arts or religious worlds, it can be very different. ... 
    That was, what I referred to, when I wrote "...to me it seems that may differ." There is the "usual way", widely used, preferred and preferable, but there are also very "special ways", depending on certain contexts, and used only there.

    My point is, that, what certainly might seem odd from a general point of view, might be perfectly suitable in such special environments. To call it "presumptuous or obtuse", or to vilify people that use it there as "weeaboos", seems to be derogatory and uncalled-for to me. That's, why I think "it depends ...", regarding that matter.


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    Raj Venugopal

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:29 am

    My name means "king." The kanji for it is ironically quite unimpressive. Moreover, I suspect having that on my belt would make me an ideal target for an ass whuppin'.
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    Reinberger

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Reinberger on Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:31 am

    Raj, that one was good!

    Similar things can be said about my given name, Robert. It comes from the old Germanic name Hrodebert, meaning "bright fame", derived from the early Germanic elements hrōd  (hruod) "fame" and beraht "bright". Nevertheless, with a smile that means everything I found 栄名昭 to be good enough as part of the wariin, where "readability" and "making sense" isn't really the intended purpose. I wouldn't use that anywhere else, of course. Smile


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:22 am

    The main reasons Japanese judoka have their names embroidered on their judogi and obi are twofold:

    1. It is possible to leave your kit at large dojo like the Kodokan - there are drying/hanging rails etc available, so you need to be able to identify yours.

    2. So that the teachers know who you are when instructing large groups.

    It is a practical thing, not a vanity thing.

    For a Westerner, unless you use Romanji, Katakana is the only sensible option for the name.
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    NBK

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by NBK on Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:56 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    NBK wrote:... In a closed performing arts or religious worlds, it can be very different. ... 
    That was, what I referred to, when I wrote "...to me it seems that may differ." There is the "usual way", widely used, preferred and preferable, but there are also very "special ways", depending on certain contexts, and used only there.

    My point is, that, what certainly might seem odd from a general point of view, might be perfectly suitable in such special environments. To call it "presumptuous or obtuse", or to vilify people that use it there as "weeaboos", seems to be derogatory and uncalled-for to me. That's, why I think "it depends ...", regarding that matter.

    Part of any (if there is any) useful function of this forum is introducing certain aspects of Japanese culture to folks.  And I think this is pretty clear, don't want anyone to mistake your limited example as common practice.  

    (The 'wariin' is a special stamp that shows that a document is genuine by overlapping it with an original, file copy, like below:




    Make no mistake about it - I think in most instances if you're clearly not Japanese, you're name is Fred Smith and you show up to a martial arts practice or demo wearing a gi with some contrived kanji name, there will be some folks there that think that  'presumptuous or obtuse'.  Or outright weird.  It is not derogatory, it is a cultural admonition.  (I was at a large year end function last night, a Western [cowboy] themed dinner / dance.  Numbers of Japanese in boots and cowboy hats - fun in context, pretty out of place on the subway!)

    (but I had to look up weaboo - thanks for the vocabulary lesson!  They are out there, I see them come and go....)  

    Raj Venugopal wrote:My name means "king." The kanji for it is ironically quite unimpressive. Moreover, I suspect having that on my belt would make me an ideal target for an ass whuppin'.
    No, I think most Japanese would think you're Chinese.    - 王 is simple but impressive once you learn kanji.
    (It's also a very common Chinese and Korean family name - Wang and Hwang respectively.  Probably several other pronunciations.  The family name of Sadaharu Oh, the Japanese baseball legend is 王 Ô.)


    Jonesy wrote:The main reasons Japanese judoka have their names embroidered on their judogi and obi are twofold:

    1. It is possible to leave your kit at large dojo like the Kodokan - there are drying/hanging rails etc available, so you need to be able to identify yours.

    2. So that the teachers know who you are when instructing large groups.

    It is a practical thing, not a vanity thing.

    For a Westerner, unless you use Romanji, Katakana is the only sensible option for the name.
    Check.
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    Reinberger

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:21 am

    I actually thought that I've been pretty clear about addressing exceptional cases vs. the norm. But, hmm, may be that sounds different in English. The "weeaboos" weren't from me, originally, but from another poster. I had to look them up, too.

    BTW, no budō involved, but here is an example from the web, showing the application of a wariin to a certificate and some sort of register.


    Or, for example, look here:

    " 最後に、卒業生番号の上に、卒業生台帳を合わせて割印を押す。"


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    Neil G

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Neil G on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:22 pm

    Weeaboo was from me, it just indicates a lack of patience on my part with the Japan-obsessed people we tend to get in the sword arts. It's not such a big problem with judo which is much more mainstream.

    Everyone in kendo gets a name-tag for their armour, and it's a recurring discussion on various forums about what to put there if you want your name in Japanese. The answer is katakana for most Western people for the various reasons discussed here.

    If you want to be further offended by my derogatory attitude, let me tell you my opinion on kanji tattoos...
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    BillC

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by BillC on Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:04 pm

    NBK wrote:
    I probably tend to be too sensitive to it, but having the misfortune of choosing one instructor unwisely, I noted that some have the habit of calling foreigners and women by their first name.  Some out of friendship or an attempt to be accommodating or 'Western', whatever that is.  But there are some who intentionally use first names to deal with foreigners in a different manner than Japanese, in essence to infantilize foreigners.  

    I have a quick way of doing that - just respond with their first names, most get the point very quickly.  

    NBK  

    The same in the business world as you know ... but no sense trying to fix that. My family name tends to make most Japanese seem as if they have marbles in their mouth ... plus a chance to make a pun indicating I know the difference between ビル and ビール.


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    NBK

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by NBK on Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:39 pm

    Neil G wrote:Weeaboo was from me, it just indicates a lack of patience on my part with the Japan-obsessed people we tend to get in the sword arts.  ....

    If you want to be further offended by my derogatory attitude, let me tell you my opinion on kanji tattoos...
    Cool
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    Davaro

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Davaro on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:39 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Jihef wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:You might want to consider having your family name on the belt, not your given name...
    I suppose this would be the thing to do (in katakana) if you were to visit a japanese dojo.
    Most foreigners I know here have their name in katakana but frankly I think it started more as an aid to the Japanese than an accommodation for the foreigners. I know any number of instructors that simply can't read western names.

    And as Jonesy says it's usually family name.  

    I am afraid my family name may be very weird in katakana or kanji... it literally means two different things in English. (One a weapon and the other a river creature...) How would one classify it in such a case... I think just in English script would be the safest or best way notwithstanding the fact that most people I would expect to find or see the belt would only read English anyway.


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    Neil G

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Neil G on Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:49 am

    Davaro wrote:
    I am afraid my family name may be very weird in katakana or kanji... it literally means two different things in English.
    There's no meaning behind katakana. It's a straight-up phonetic alphabet. Use it if you want Japanese people to be able to read your name and pronounce it somewhat close to correctly. But you are probably best using roman characters given what you've described.

    Raj Venugopal

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:55 am

    No, I think most Japanese would think you're Chinese.    - 王 is simple but impressive once you learn kanji.
    (It's also a very common Chinese and Korean family name - Wang and Hwang respectively.  Probably several other pronunciations.  The family name of Sadaharu Oh, the Japanese baseball legend is 王 Ô.)

    Ha ha! Trust me. No one is going to think I'm Chinese after one look.

    hobit

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by hobit on Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:15 am

    Can I reverse the question slightly? While Anglo Saxons or other languages attempt to use Kanji or katakana to express their names and I find the discussion interesting not least in how I would translate my name.

    But what Interests me more is How do Japanese or more commonly Chinese choose an English/ or European name? I understand Why they would choose a name. Better to pick a name they (Language Ignorant Anglo Saxons) can say. Than Listen to the alternative daily/hourly etc.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:23 am

    hobit wrote:Can I reverse the question slightly? While Anglo Saxons or other languages attempt to use Kanji or katakana to express their names and I find the discussion interesting not least in how I would translate my name.

    But what Interests me more is How do Japanese or more commonly Chinese choose an English/ or European name? I understand Why they would choose a name. Better to pick a name they (Language Ignorant Anglo Saxons) can say. Than Listen to the alternative daily/hourly etc.

    I've just called them by their Japanese given name, or some sort of diminutive of it that sounds more like English, at their request.

    Mitsuya was "Mitsuya"...not that hard to pronounce...in any case it's going to sound funny unless you speak flawless Japanese !

    For example, "Kenichiro" is "Ken". "Michinori" was "Mich" or "Michi"

    Fortunately, my name "Ben", so they don't have any problem with it. Bently though, is Be N Ta Ri...



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    hobit

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by hobit on Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:29 am

    So why do some of them become Sophie, Charles etc? and again I think this applies more to the Chinese?
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    BillC

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by BillC on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:36 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Fortunately, my name "Ben", so they don't have any problem with it. Bently though, is Be N Ta Ri...


    Good thing you are not Benjamin Joseph!


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:46 am

    hobit wrote:So why do some of them become Sophie, Charles etc? and again I think this applies more to the Chinese?

    Personal preference, or a difficult name to pronounce is my experience. When I was in grad school one of the
    Chinese students was 'Lily', because no way could we pronounce her name correctly. Another Chinese man requested to be called by a diminutive of his first name, so that's what we did.



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:48 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Fortunately, my name "Ben", so they don't have any problem with it. Bently though, is Be N Ta Ri...


    Good thing you are not Benjamin Joseph!


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    That absolutely cracked them up.


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    Neil G

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    Re: Help required with kanji

    Post by Neil G on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:48 am

    hobit wrote:So why do some of them become Sophie, Charles etc? and again I think this applies more to the Chinese?
    Some of the Chinese students I knew in school were asked/told to pick an English name when they went to Canada. They usually picked a name that sounded good to their ears, which resulted in a lot of unusual or outdated names to our ears. Some of my Japanese friends who were born in Canada and have traditional Japanese first names pick another name just to make life easier in business or school. In that case they often pick something related - David instead of Daisaku, Mitch rather than Shigemitsu.

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