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    Stevens

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    ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Stevens on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:20 pm

    I think that all the ude garami are shoulderlocks and must be forbidden.

    Why no neck and leglocks in training and exams of judo now we still do waza with picking up legs now this is forbidden in shiai? I think nek land leglocks are still judo!

    tafftaz

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by tafftaz on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:37 am

    Not always a shoulderlock if done correctly.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:51 am

    Not this tired old troll again...it's practically a meme...


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    finarashi

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by finarashi on Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:39 am

    I'll provide the next hlf a dozen posts

    Yes it is
    ----
    No it certainly isn't
    ----
    My shoulder always hurts when..
    ---
    Then it was not done correctly
    ---
    Also when done By xxx
    ---
    Still not shoulderlock
    ---
    Yes it is
    ----
    No it certainly isn't
    ----
    My shoulder always hurts when..
    ---
    Then it was not done correctly
    ---
    You are ...
    ---
    So are you
    ---
    Where is CK when we need him
    ---
    ....


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    Stevens

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Stevens on Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:22 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Not this tired old troll again...it's practically a meme...
    Sorry but maybe you can tell me were tot find more about this troll.

    Stevens

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Stevens on Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:25 am

    finarashi wrote:I'll provide the next hlf a dozen posts

    Yes it is
    ----
    No it certainly isn't
    ----
    My shoulder always hurts when..
    ---
    Then it was not done correctly
    ---
    Also when done By xxx
    ---
    Still not shoulderlock
    ---
    Yes it is
    ----
    No it certainly isn't
    ----
    My shoulder always hurts when..
    ---
    Then it was not done correctly
    ---
    You are ...
    ---
    So are you
    ---
    Where is CK when we need him
    ---
    ....

    I will ask around. I am sorry tot ask this here.

    finarashi

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by finarashi on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:25 pm

    If you are serious then the previous discussions can be summarized as
    - Basic form in Judo is to elbow
    - there are forms which also affect shoulder
    - in Judo the aim is to do it in elbow
    - If the lock affects shoulder then the referee should stop it
    - typically the referees do not stop
    - if you submit because the lock affected shoulder then too bad, your own fault

    So in Judo the aim is to lock the elbow and the name reflects this.


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    Stevens

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Stevens on Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:16 pm

    finarashi wrote:If you are serious then the previous discussions can be summarized as
    - Basic form in Judo is to elbow
    - there are forms which also affect shoulder
    - in Judo the aim is to do it in elbow
    - If the lock affects shoulder then the referee should stop it
    - typically the referees do not stop
    - if you submit because the lock affected shoulder then too bad, your own fault

    So in Judo the aim is to lock the elbow and the name reflects this.

    Thank you for your opinion. I keep in touch about the reactions of judofriends/sensei!

    Has anybody another opinion?

    - if you submit because the lock affected shoulder then too bad, your own fault
    I don't understand! What do you mean? When i sumit for a shime-waza it's also too bad and my own fault!



    finarashi

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by finarashi on Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:53 am

    Stevens wrote:

    Thank you for your opinion. I keep in touch about the reactions of judofriends/sensei!

    Has anybody another opinion?

    - if you submit because the lock affected shoulder then too bad, your own fault
    I don't understand! What do you mean? When i sumit for a shime-waza it's also too bad and my own fault!


    Basically if in Judo someone attempts to make a lock on any other joint than elbow, e.g. wrist, knee, shoulder, ... the referee should stop the attempt and penalize


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    Stevens

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Stevens on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:34 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Stevens wrote:

    Thank you for your opinion. I keep in touch about the reactions of judofriends/sensei!

    Has anybody another opinion?

    - if you submit because the lock affected shoulder then too bad, your own fault
    I don't understand! What do you mean? When i sumit for a shime-waza it's also too bad and my own fault!


    Basically if in Judo someone attempts to make a lock on any other joint than elbow, e.g. wrist, knee, shoulder, ... the referee should stop the attempt and penalize

    I did some udegarami training with 4 brownbelt students today.
    I did 4 different udegarami and asked what they feld.
    1 basic ukes hand in head direction yokoshiho position
    2 ukes hand in legs direction
    3 tori on his back uke between the legs
    4 uke on his fours tori in the front hookin arm into arm to make keari waza

    Result
    1 feeling elbow sometimes into upperarm
    2 shoulder
    3 shoulder
    4 shoulder

    Fritz

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Fritz on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:45 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Result
    1 feeling elbow sometimes into upperarm
    2 shoulder
    3 shoulder
    4 shoulder
    And where is the problem? If you apply ude-garami and uke's shoulder hurts, its the problem from uke, maybe his shoulder is
    too stiff resp. not flexible enough...

    If you apply Sankaku-Jime, sometimes the neck hurts, but who bothers... ?


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    _Fritz_

    jkw

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by jkw on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:05 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Result
    1 feeling elbow sometimes into upperarm
    2 shoulder
    3 shoulder
    4 shoulder
    [/quote]

    This is not really a useful study. If someone tries uchi-mata on four people and can only lift three it doesn't mean uchi-mata doesn't work. Maybe the ude-garami has technical problems.

    Neil G

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Neil G on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:18 am

    Stevens, I agree that it's hard to take the shoulder out of it. Frankly, the lock is a lot more effective IMO if you use it to attack the shoulder. Experiment with the angle between uke's forearm and upper arm. If it's 90 degrees, you are pretty much cranking on the shoulder. Compress it more and you will attack the elbow more.

    Nic

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Nic on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:07 am

    Whenever you see any fractures resulting from Ude garami they are usually to the humerus, the bone between the elbow & shoulder. So you could make the argument that the technique is a humerus one!

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:24 am

    Nic wrote:Whenever you see any fractures resulting from Ude garami they are usually to the humerus, the bone between the elbow & shoulder.  So you could make the argument that the technique is a humerus one!

    Yep, makes for a nasty spiral fracture.


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    Davaro

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Davaro on Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:04 am

    Nic wrote: the technique is a humerus one!

    I don't think  it's THAT funny Smile


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    Ryvai

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Ryvai on Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:58 pm

    Stevens wrote:I think that all the ude garami are shoulderlocks and must be forbidden.

    Why no neck and leglocks in training and exams of judo now we still do waza with picking up legs now this is forbidden in shiai? I think nek land leglocks are still judo!

    I first thought you where trolling, but since you are serious about the claim I can give you my 2 cents on the matter regarding ude-garami. There is a reason these posts get's mocked at first glance, and that is because this has been debated over and over again, but then again much of that knowledge was lost on the old Judoforum Smile

    First we need to establish that ude-garami is in fact an attack against the elbow, that is the goal. While people have different thresholds to pain in the shoulder, some barely feel it and some tap due to shoulder pain before the pressure on the elbow. If some people have shoulder trouble that is their own issue. There is also the matter regarding how the technique is applied, it can exclusively attack the shoulder (illegal and will be penalized) and there are those that are more elbow directed ways of performing it (the way it should be). I fear I might be fullfilling Finerashi's prophesy here, but there might be that you are applying it incorrectly. Try pulling the tip of the elbow towards your opponents belt, you will notice a tremendous increase in efficiency. Bones will likely break (either the elbow is dislocated or the humerus breaks) before the shoulder is dislocated.

    Stevens

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Stevens on Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:20 pm

    Ryvai wrote:
    Stevens wrote:I think that all the ude garami are shoulderlocks and must be forbidden.

    Why no neck and leglocks in training and exams of judo now we still do waza with picking up legs now this is forbidden in shiai? I think nek land leglocks are still judo!

    I first thought you where trolling, but since you are serious about the claim I can give you my 2 cents on the matter regarding ude-garami. There is a reason these posts get's mocked at first glance, and that is because this has been debated over and over again, but then again much of that knowledge was lost on the old Judoforum Smile

    First we need to establish that ude-garami is in fact an attack against the elbow, that is the goal. While people have different thresholds to pain in the shoulder, some barely feel it and some tap due to shoulder pain before the pressure on the elbow. If some people have shoulder trouble that is their own issue. There is also the matter regarding how the technique is applied, it can exclusively attack the shoulder (illegal and will be penalized) and there are those that are more elbow directed ways of performing it (the way it should be). I fear I might be fullfilling Finerashi's prophesy here, but there might be that you are applying it incorrectly. Try pulling the tip of the elbow towards your opponents belt, you will notice a tremendous increase in efficiency. Bones will likely break (either the elbow is dislocated or the humerus breaks) before the shoulder is dislocated.
    Thanks for your answer and opinion. What about leg and neklocks back in the danexams for judo? So much judo is lost nowadays.

    Davaro

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    Re: ude garami always shoulderlock

    Post by Davaro on Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:43 pm

    In our Dan examinations we still have to demonstrate leg locks, as well as the "pick-ups" like Morote Gari etc. Just because they are not allowed in shiai does not mean they are not valid techniques.

    I am not aware of any neck "locks" though as this is not tested at all. I am certain though that some of the strangulations, if applied in a certain way would probably qualify as a neck lock much the same as say, ude garami, which when applied correctly certainly attacks the elbow and upper arm, but can also attack the shoulder.


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