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    Anatol

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    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Anatol on Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:56 am

    There are a lot of complaints

    that Judo isn't that what it was. Some with "true Judo" going back to the 60ties and 70ties and early 80ties like CK referring back to the greates as Okano or Yamashita, others in german Judo Forum going back to Tokio Hirano or Mifune and Kano.

    My question is:

    If Judo is "best use of energy" and "the soft and the flexible overcomes the strong and the stiff" and as many emphasise that modern competitive judo is using to much strenght, WHY are the traditionalist not building a team to beat all this wrestling judokas in competition?

    Competition (shiai = proof together) is a part of traditional teaching along with randori, kata, mondo and kogi AND should overcome the strong with flexibility and a clear and calm mind (mu shin). Nobody can say, thats only the "competition rules" cause you can do nearly rhe whole Gokyo  and the most pins and chokes and kansetsu waza.

    IF traditional Judo is the most effective way of Judo - and with so much expertise from the traditional "old" teachers - it should not be too difficult to build a "most efficient team" for Judo competition.

    Vice versa - are these "old and traditionalist judokas and sensei" only dreaming of their youth, where they didn't realize their competition dreams and learned to adore the old masters, when Judo was exercised in Japan like skiing in Austria or Ice Skating in the Netherlands or Baseball in the US and foreigners had no clue, whats going on? Like learning skiing for a chinese and thinking of "incredible skills" of the teacher, because he is going downhill with 80 miles per hour?


    What do you think?


    Last edited by Anatol on Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:23 am

    You can't succeed in Judo competition if you are not technically skilled and in the best physical condition possible, today or any point in the past you care to check.

    CK posted a photo a while back of a totally muscled up and ripped young Mifune, for example. Maybe you can find it.

    Modern judo vs "traditional judo" is a false dichotomy. We are still doing the same techniques for the most part.

    The issue with "true judo" is more a matter I think of the monetization of Judo by the IJF, and an overemphasis on competition versus what Kano originally espoused.

    However, that emphasis on performance in competition has been around a long, long time in judo.



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    Anatol

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Anatol on Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:03 am

    Hi Ben

    CK posted a photo a while back of a totally muscled up and ripped young Mifune, for example.

    Same with Kimura and Tokio Hirano and Okano too ...
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:34 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Ben

    CK posted a photo a while back of a totally muscled up and ripped young Mifune, for example.

    Same with Kimura and Tokio Hirano and Okano too ...

    Right, but Mifune is the supposed epitome of "softness overcomes hardness" and all that...



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    Anatol

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Anatol on Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:47 am

    Hi Ben

    Yes they say, that Judo in Japan after WW II was "softer" than before.

    But my question still is, why "soft Judo" doesnt overcome the stiff and the strong in shiai.

    Muscle over Mind?

    Is modern competitive Judo much better then many traditional Judoka suppose?

    Or old Judo not as good/effective?
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:56 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Ben

    Yes they say, that Judo in Japan after WW II was "softer" than before.

    But my question still is, why "soft Judo" doesnt overcome the stiff and the strong in shiai.

    Muscle over Mind?

    Is modern competitive Judo much better then many traditional Judoka suppose?

    Or old Judo not as good/effective?

    I'm calling false dichotomy (logical fallacy) on you, Anatol.



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    Anatol

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Anatol on Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:21 am

    Good call Ben ;-)


    Maybe its because I am deadlifting 220kg and benchpressing 150 and squatting 200.

    Muscle over mind ...


    I don't think that power/muscle is connected with hard and stiff and poor technique but many traditionalist do.


    But the rants over "modern sport-judo" and the idealizing of the old are old - for example this interview with Feldenkrais in 1977:


    Now, anybody who goes to a club, in a year or a year and a half, they get to be a black belt. It doesn't mean much any more. A black belt today is a second rate achievement. You can see even the higher grades in the Olympic games, it's the ugliest sight I've ever seen, worse than boxing, worse than wrestling. Both of them are nicer than the Judo performed in the Olympic games. Kano, if he saw that, he would die.
    Why has the quality of Judo gone down?
    Because so long as Kano was alive, he didn't allow Judo into the Olympic Games and he didn't allow weight distinctions. Skill is the final thing. In the Olympic Games you have weight categories. Because, there, like in wrestling, they believe that a lightweight cannot beat a heavyweight. Now they have that weight system which requires a small man fight a small man, never a big one. So you see those fellows using strength to push each other and they don't do any Judo, they do a parody of Judo. It's against the grain of Judo. It's ugly to see and inefficient. And Kano said, “So long as l am alive, Judo won't have weight distinctions and if the day comes that it becomes a part of the Olympic Games, it will become a wash-out. Judo is finished with inclusion into the Olympic games.” And, unfortunately, he was right.
    Is the entire body of Judo teaching very different now than it was?
    Completely, even in Japan. Because, you see, the Japanese are very proud of their Judo. But now it's all a question of violent power, which is against the grain of Judo. Judo is a school where you use your opponent's strength and therefore, it's based on moving, not on resisting, not on pushing back against a push. Who's going to push someone stronger and get somewhere? Kano was a tiny little man who could throw any wrestler who pushed him, any time, immediately. And that's the principle, that if someone pushed him, he would sink under him and the chap who pushed would fall over Kano's body only because he's pushing. Kano would come under his hips and help his push. He disappears from under the push so smoothly that the other person goes over without knowing how or why. Nowadays, they push back, and nobody is nimble enough with that tai-sabaki, you call it in Judo – it means the mobility of the hips, turning the back to the front – nobody is nimble enough to do that. They are not trained any more like that.
    The real champions, they never fought. They came there to beat you, not to fight you. They were there to show you that you are no match for them and that was the idea. They didn't go in for fighting. One of them would go there to show you that you were nothing, that his skill is so much greater than yours that you have not a chance in a million. In fact, he will let you do whatever kind of hold on him, just to show you he can get out of it. My teacher would lie on the floor and leave his throat exposed and a stick would be put to his throat with two people holding the stick down, pressing the stick onto his throat. Anybody would be dead in a second. He would lie there, and before you knew it, he was out from under the stick, out of their hold. He could do that ten times running and you still couldn't stop him from doing it. And the thing is extremely simple, but you have to have the skilI, the stamina to do it. He would do it to the right and the left, anytime he wanted. It looks like a god-like ability, but then he teaches you how to do it. Now any Judo man today if you put a stick to his throat, he will die. (chuckle)
    Are there still people who do teach it in that old style?
    Oh yes, there are some shimizo, old men in Japan, who are just as peeved about this as myself. They look at these young, silly idiots, who are spoiling their Judo heritage, which was unique in the world, and who make out of it shit. There are many people who …

    http://www.semiophysics.com/SemioPhysics_interview_with_Moshe.html#Top




    .
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    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:11 pm

    Anatol wrote:Good call Ben ;-)


    Maybe its because I am deadlifting 220kg and benchpressing 150 and squatting 200.

    Muscle over mind ...


    I don't think that power/muscle is connected with hard and stiff and poor technique but many traditionalist do.


    But the rants over "modern sport-judo" and the idealizing of the old are old - for example this interview with Feldenkrais in 1977:


    Now, anybody who goes to a club, in a year or a year and a half, they get to be a black belt. It doesn't mean much any more. A black belt today is a second rate achievement. You can see even the higher grades in the Olympic games, it's the ugliest sight I've ever seen, worse than boxing, worse than wrestling. Both of them are nicer than the Judo performed in the Olympic games. Kano, if he saw that, he would die.
    Why has the quality of Judo gone down?
    Because so long as Kano was alive, he didn't allow Judo into the Olympic Games and he didn't allow weight distinctions. Skill is the final thing. In the Olympic Games you have weight categories. Because, there, like in wrestling, they believe that a lightweight cannot beat a heavyweight. Now they have that weight system which requires a small man fight a small man, never a big one. So you see those fellows using strength to push each other and they don't do any Judo, they do a parody of Judo. It's against the grain of Judo. It's ugly to see and inefficient. And Kano said, “So long as l am alive, Judo won't have weight distinctions and if the day comes that it becomes a part of the Olympic Games, it will become a wash-out. Judo is finished with inclusion into the Olympic games.” And, unfortunately, he was right.
    Is the entire body of Judo teaching very different now than it was?
    Completely, even in Japan. Because, you see, the Japanese are very proud of their Judo. But now it's all a question of violent power, which is against the grain of Judo. Judo is a school where you use your opponent's strength and therefore, it's based on moving, not on resisting, not on pushing back against a push. Who's going to push someone stronger and get somewhere? Kano was a tiny little man who could throw any wrestler who pushed him, any time, immediately. And that's the principle, that if someone pushed him, he would sink under him and the chap who pushed would fall over Kano's body only because he's pushing. Kano would come under his hips and help his push. He disappears from under the push so smoothly that the other person goes over without knowing how or why. Nowadays, they push back, and nobody is nimble enough with that tai-sabaki, you call it in Judo – it means the mobility of the hips, turning the back to the front – nobody is nimble enough to do that. They are not trained any more like that.
    The real champions, they never fought. They came there to beat you, not to fight you. They were there to show you that you are no match for them and that was the idea. They didn't go in for fighting. One of them would go there to show you that you were nothing, that his skill is so much greater than yours that you have not a chance in a million. In fact, he will let you do whatever kind of hold on him, just to show you he can get out of it. My teacher would lie on the floor and leave his throat exposed and a stick would be put to his throat with two people holding the stick down, pressing the stick onto his throat. Anybody would be dead in a second. He would lie there, and before you knew it, he was out from under the stick, out of their hold. He could do that ten times running and you still couldn't stop him from doing it. And the thing is extremely simple, but you have to have the skilI, the stamina to do it. He would do it to the right and the left, anytime he wanted. It looks like a god-like ability, but then he teaches you how to do it. Now any Judo man today if you put a stick to his throat, he will die. (chuckle)
    Are there still people who do teach it in that old style?
    Oh yes, there are some shimizo, old men in Japan, who are just as peeved about this as myself. They look at these young, silly idiots, who are spoiling their Judo heritage, which was unique in the world, and who make out of it shit. There are many people who …

    http://www.semiophysics.com/SemioPhysics_interview_with_Moshe.html#Top




    .

    Well, anybody can be wrong.


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    GregW

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    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by GregW on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:49 pm

    I think about this topic a lot. I am one of those students of judo who is enamored with Mifune's and Hirano's judo. This is because my first sensei was more from the "power" school of judo. He raised up a team of many guys and girls who won state and regional championships. I was never one of those because he didn't know how to take a student with a build like mine and train it to do judo. At 14, I was almost six feet tall and only 115 pounds. There was no way a tall skinny kid like me could compete with much shorter, stockier guys with lots of upper body strength and low centers of gravity. It wasn't until I was sidelined with an injury for several weeks that I had the opportunity to analyze my judo and compare it to that of others. I came back with a renewed understanding of kuzushi and tsukuri, with which I began to consistently defeat much stronger opponents in shiai.

    It was not until many years later that I saw films of Hirano and Mifune and I saw in them what I had learned through observation. I realized that I had only scratched the surface of the possibilities and I continue to study their approaches, dissecting their kuzushi and tsukuri.

    The one thing is that, for "soft" judo to beat "strength" judo, the "soft" judo has to have much more precise technique. Kime has to be highly developed because the moment to attack is most often determined by uke, not tori. It takes a lot longer to learn and students who want to be winning competitors early on will usually gravitate toward the "strength" judo because it takes less time to develop the athleticism than it is to develop the judo.

    Personally, at my age (55), I'm long past my competition days, but I am able to hold my own in randori with guys much younger and stronger than me because I react to their strength with softness. I don't get as fatigued as they do. I can outlast them. Sure, I get thrown, but I throw just as often as they do with minimal effort. I'm nowhere near the magic of Mifune, but the principles work when I think to apply them. When a strong guy grabs hold, it takes a conscious decision to use softness, because the instinct is to react with strength.

    My young students have to unlearn the instinct to react with strength. We're a young club so it will take them time to do so. Some of them have had the chance to use judo off the mat and they find that it works. They haven't gotten into brawls, but a few of them were challenged by their wrestler friends at school and they surprised the wrestlers by throwing them. Now if a wrestler also knew judo, that would be more problematic, obviously. They would have more knowledge of keeping balance and how to evade throws. In tournament, they struggle to do what they're taught and not get caught up in the momentary panic of having a strong player take a grip.

    That said, the average judoka isn't going to beat a strong judoka who has near-perfect technique, regardless of how good his own technique might be. All things being equal, the stronger player will win unless the weaker one is just lucky.
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    noboru

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    Location : Czech Republic

    "Sport judo" vs "Traditional judo"

    Post by noboru on Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:27 pm

    As someone said - we make the same techniques.  Judo world has more professionals judokas in national teams and their training  for judo competetions is very hard.

    I think that modern sport judokas are better than judokas in history in the way of sense current shiai rules. They have better prepared the body, may be that their Tokui waza are very very skilled, they are able to throw the opponent from different situations, sometimes from impossible situations.
    But the rules in shiai changes the situations how react with principles Seiryoku zenyo than real fight.

    I understand the differencies between "Sport judo" vs "Traditional judo" in this case:
    1, changing mind and targets of judo practice - win in sport competition VS selfdevelopment, improving me (in tatami, in work, in family) for benefit self and others (group, society, nation, earth)
    2, changing in randori ways - randori in sense current shiai rules VS randori in selfdefence mind (no bent back, no hard resistance in hand - awaiting possible attack of atemi waza, no matte, no maita, no tatami, may be only one attempt for reaction, may be no one opponent).
    3, changing in teaching content - techniques only for competition VS techniques for competition, for selfdefence, for teaching principles. Deeper studying of kata, possibilities of atemi waza. Connection atemi waza -> with other judo waza ( nage / katame / jime / osaekomi waza etc.).

    Randori with hard resistance in kumikata and with bent back is not in sense of preparing for selfdefence. I think that it is the FIRST essential point!! Real fight has not rules. Second is target of practice: SPORT SUCCESS  VS. EDUCATIONAL SUCCESS. This is the way how can I understand the differencies.

    One thing yet:
    For selfdeveloping (character and technique) is not any border (you can improve them for all life), but for competitions is border your youth and your strenght.

    Sport judo is good for children and youth, traditional judo for adults.


    Last edited by noboru on Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:49 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Real Judo and IJF competition wrestling

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:13 am

    noboru wrote:As someone said - we make the same techniques.  Judo world has more professionals judokas in national teams and their training  for judo competetions is very hard.

    I think that modern sport judokas are better than judokas in history in the way of sense current shiai rules. They have better prepared the body, may be that their Tokui waza are very very skilled, they are able to throw the opponent from different situations, sometimes from impossible situations.
    But the rules in shiai changes the situations how react with principles Seiryoku zenyo than real fight.

    I understand the differences between "Sport judo" vs "Traditional judo" in this case:
    1, changing mind and targets of judo practice - win in sport competition VS self-development, improving me (in tatami, in work, in family) for benefit self and others (group, society, nation, earth)
    2, changing in randori ways - randori in sense current shiai rules VS randori in selfdefence mind (no bent back, no hard resistance in hand - awaiting possible attack of atemi waza, no matte, no maita, no tatami, may be only one attempt for reaction, may be no one opponent).
    3, changing in teaching content - techniques only for competition VS techniques for competition, for selfdefence, for teaching principles. Deeper studying of kata, possibilities of atemi waza. Connection atemi waza -> with other judo waza ( nage / katame / jime / osaekomi waza etc.).

    Randori with hard resistance in kumikata and with bent back is not in sense of preparing for selfdefence. I think that it is the FIRST essential point!! Real fight has not rules. Second is target of practice: SPORT SUCCESS  VS. EDUCATIONAL SUCCESS. This is the way how can I understand the differencies.

    One thing yet:
    For selfdeveloping (character and technique) is not any border (you can improve them for all life), but for competitions is border your youth and your strenght.

    Sport judo is good for children and youth, traditional judo for adults.

    Sport success and educational success are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Much depends on the teachers/coaches and their approach.

    The discipline and drive needed to succeed in sport has applications in other areas of life. This especially true in children/young adults (teenagers), in my experience.

    Of course, anything can be abused, and Judo is no exception. In that sense it's not different than any other sport out there.



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