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    Rule question: standing subs

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    Neil G

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    Rule question: standing subs

    Post by Neil G on Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:45 am

    It's always been my understanding that standing locks or chokes are legal. You can apply them standing and either finish there or use them to bring the opponent to the ground so long as it's in a controlled manner. I was having a discussion with another guy who thinks that you can only finish on the ground, specifically for locks.

    Any refs out there care to clarify?

    tafftaz

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by tafftaz on Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:00 am

    Standing subs are legal as long as they are not applied in the process of throwing. Taking your opponent to ground in a controlled manner is legal as long as there is no throwing action(that is as far as I understand anyway).

    This was asked in the old forum and CK gave a verrrrry in depth answer on it.

    Very dubious area though as I have received hansoku make for apparently attempting harai goshi while applying ude gatame.....my opponent managed to pull away from me in the process of the throw, grips shifted and my arm was across the back of his elbow halfway through the throw.

    Do not envy referees when this happens.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:49 am

    Neil G wrote:It's always been my understanding that standing locks or chokes are legal.  You can apply them standing and either finish there or use them to bring the opponent to the ground so long as it's in a controlled manner.  I was having a discussion with another guy who thinks that you can only finish on the ground, specifically for locks.

    Any refs out there care to clarify?

    Wait, you are a ref....


    Used to be OK, not so sure now. I have asked, and get conflicting answers.

    Was always a tricky thing to do anyway. You tend to do have to do the arm-locks pretty hard and fast, which tends to be painful, which tends to piss people off.

    I went through a stage in which I was working on standing arm locks a lot. I had a teacher who was very good at them. The one time I tried a Waki Gatame in a shiai, I got a keikoku. From a PJU level ref, who was a supposed expert at katame and ne waza.

    Go figure, LOL !




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    Neil G

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by Neil G on Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:48 am

    The one time I tried it, I got countered and thrown for my troubles. So it's risky from several angles and hard to execute - as a ref I haven't seen one attempted.

    I thought I knew this rule but I am just checking.

    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:01 am

    I think they might be a shido now. Take a look at this and see?

    http://www.intjudo.eu/upload/2014_06/03/140180706544806028/ijf_ref_rules_2014_16_eng_final_version_1.05.pdf


    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:06 am

    Myself, I'm still trying to figure it ok or not to slap a grip off

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:59 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Myself, I'm still trying to figure it ok or not to slap a grip off

    No hitting allowed, slapping or otherwise, to cut a grip.



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    BillC

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by BillC on Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:31 pm

    Just an aesthetic suggestion ... "sub" seems to me to be a term used in grappling sports.  Time after time after time I ask my students "what are the 4 positive ways to prevail in a judo contest" ... I get answer "uh ... ippon ... sub ... oh year pin and uhhhhhhhhhh."  Yeah, they are hyped up about those subs.  Is this the "spiritual contamination" the IJF is protecting us from?  So maybe it would be a good idea to use "kansetsuwaza" and "shimewaza."

    The short answer in regards to standing kansetsuwaza certainly must be yes.  



    Then there is

    2.-Situations that allows the passage from Tachiwaza to Newaza

    c.  When one contestant obtains some considerable effect by applying a Shimewaza or Kansetsuwaza
    in the standing position and then changes without interruption to Newaza.


    Can't be both allowed and prohibited, can it?

    Or the citation about when the referee should call matte

    h. -When a contestant performs or attempts to perform Kansetsu waza or Shimewaza from the standing position and the result is not sufficiently apparent.

    Again, can't be simply ineffective if it is illegal?

    And there is a specific grave infringement rule against taking an opponent directly to the ground from a specific standing kansetsuwaza.  

    "To fall directly to the Tatami while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as Ude hishigi wakigatame."

    Yes, I have been told by people who should know that it is illegal to throw with kansetsuwaza or shimewaza ... but I don't see the rule written.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Rule question: standing subs

    Post by finarashi on Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:21 pm

    In simple terms*
    1. The only thing that is prohibited is "To fall directly to the Tatami while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as Ude hishigi wakigatame." the reason it is prohibited is ~ that uke can not do anything to stop his arm being injured.
    2. If you attempt to do shimewaza or kansetsuwasa standing and the effect is not immediately obvious then the referee should call matte.  The reason it is matte is ~ that uke can not do anything to stop his arm being injured.
    3. Shimewaza or kansetsuwaza standing is one in the million chance.


    * there is what one could call "an understanding of what the rules tell us" and this can change wihtout the rules themselves are changing. One problematic question has been whether you can throw while uke's arm is in knsetsuwasa or whether you can throw while uke is in shimewaza. Some argue that this should be banned because of the danger to injury and some say that is is OK. Currently IMHO it is OK.  So it is OK to throw while applying or attempting to apply techniques such as Ude hishigi wakigatame. Even though I would not recommend you to try it.
    ~ means that this is the explanation given when asked. No this is not the full explanation and one can argue ...


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