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    Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

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    Was this a deliberate foul?

    [ 5 ]
    31% [31%] 
    [ 7 ]
    44% [44%] 
    [ 4 ]
    25% [25%] 

    Total Votes: 16

    inkpen

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    Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by inkpen on Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:15 am

    This foul was committed against my 7 year old son by his opponent in a competition in Darwin, Australia. I submitted this footage to the President of Judo Federation Australia (NT)(JFA(NT), who referred it to a JFA(NT) Referees Commission. All 3 members of this panel were either members or affiliates of the same club as this offending player. Their finding was, "incidental contact whilst the player on top was going for a grip.......with nothing deliberate or sinister". Judo Federation have refused to condemn this foul, and therefore in effect have condemned it. This could have been resolved early in the piece with a simple  apology to my son. I have since been forced to go through the Complaints Procedure Process within judo here in Australia. The hierarchy have delayed and stonewalled and have in the end attempted to drag the investigation of these Formal Complaint in the legal sphere at my expense. The costs they have set are prohibitive. So these matters will not be investigated within judo and will be swept under the carpet. It is sad that the behaviour by Judo Federation Australia seems to contradict the principles of integrity, fair play, honour and honesty, on which judo is founded.
    http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:11 pm

    Looks very much like a closed fist to me..............just my2c.

    inkpen

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by inkpen on Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:34 pm

    Actually starts with a closed fist & half way down opens up to open hand. Some have suggested this is a palm heel strike. But surely still a strike to the face that is against the rules?

    medo

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by medo on Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:46 pm

    it seems to me the young guy who definitely threw the punch retaliated angrily from being held down even kids have instinct actions without thought.
    Seen a young guy of about eight get up from loosing a match from a hold down and head but the other player, some kids and adults I guest get so frustrated by being held down and lash out.
    If you did not film it then without competent officials it would definitely be put down to "he was trying to get a grip" things like this are twisted to please all parties but never does....

    inkpen

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by inkpen on Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:11 pm

    My gripe is not with the kid (10 years of age) who delivered this strike to my son (aged 7) as we can all make mistakes in the heat of the moment. However I do think he should have to watch this footage with his parents and his coach. He should be given a formal warning so that no other kid has to suffer as my son.
    My issue is with Judo Federation Australia (JFA), JFA(NT) and Marrara Judo Club for the manner in which they have handled this matter. They have condoned this foul & have made no serious effort to investigate. Instead they have attempted to wait me out and scare me off. It is crazy that this affair has escalated to this point, 9 months later. But this is what JFA want. They try to avoid scrutiny and silence criticism. JFA think they are answerable and accountable to no-one. They are a law unto themselves.

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Old Chestnut on Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:55 pm

    At least no-one was dancing on the sidelines in their underwear only.

    inkpen

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by inkpen on Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:04 pm

    Ah so you're actually aware of the Mark Calaway incident!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1AgcFH3A3o.
    Does lack of transparency and accountability, and a track record of attempting to cover up enethical behaviour & practices by Judo Federation Australia seem familiar?
    It is sad that the great sport of judo is being betrayed and undermined by these dishonourable administrators.
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:41 pm

    Cover ups seem to be the standard....followed by threats.

    Raj Venugopal

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:21 am

    appears to be a deliberate strike, and consistent with the progression from yellow's starting position in the clip. referee does not appear in control. But I say that from my desk... when children are involved such incidents are very serious.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:53 am

    Wow, that looked like some sort of blow was intended.

    The ref probably should have called mate' as they stood up from the original ne waza position, would be SOP to do so.

    Other question is 10 year old vs 7 year old, not a good idea at all. Those looked like pretty normal shiai rules to me. 7 year olds around here don't compete, and for sure not under normal shiai rules.

    The ref was not very experienced is obvious.

    I've watched it several times...orange belt IMO purposely smacked the kid on bottom.



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    medo

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by medo on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:22 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Wow, that looked like some sort of blow was intended.

    The ref probably should have called mate' as they stood up from the original ne waza position, would be SOP to do so.

    Other question is 10 year old vs 7 year old, not a good idea at all. Those looked like pretty normal shiai rules to me. 7 year olds around here don't compete, and for sure not under normal shiai rules.

    The ref was not very experienced is obvious.

    I've watched it several times...orange belt IMO purposely smacked the kid on bottom.


    Why would the ref call matte both yellow and orange stood up after tokita was called. The orange belt took advantage, just the inexperience of the yellow belt.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:44 am

    medo wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Wow, that looked like some sort of blow was intended.

    The ref probably should have called mate' as they stood up from the original ne waza position, would be SOP to do so.

    Other question is 10 year old vs 7 year old, not a good idea at all. Those looked like pretty normal shiai rules to me. 7 year olds around here don't compete, and for sure not under normal shiai rules.

    The ref was not very experienced is obvious.

    I've watched it several times...orange belt IMO purposely smacked the kid on bottom.



    Why would the ref call matte both yellow and orange stood up after tokita was called. The orange belt took advantage, just the inexperience of the yellow belt.

    Well, I'm just telling you what has been SOP in Judo competition for a while, not that I agree with it under all circumstances.

    Little kids, it's a good idea. Experienced grown up, not so much.

    And yes, inexperienced yellow belt 7 year old competing with a 10 year old orange belt under what appear to be normal shiai rules.

    That's bad juju, man, bad juju.

    Hey Raj, that's not kosher in Canada as far as I know, is it ? 10 year old vs 7 year old, normal shiai rules ? Or even 7 year old competing period ?


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:44 am

    Wait, I know, it's Aussie rules Judo !



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    medo

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by medo on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:09 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Wow, that looked like some sort of blow was intended.

    The ref probably should have called mate' as they stood up from the original ne waza position, would be SOP to do so.

    Other question is 10 year old vs 7 year old, not a good idea at all. Those looked like pretty normal shiai rules to me. 7 year olds around here don't compete, and for sure not under normal shiai rules.

    The ref was not very experienced is obvious.

    I've watched it several times...orange belt IMO purposely smacked the kid on bottom.



    Why would the ref call matte both yellow and orange stood up after tokita was called. The orange belt took advantage, just the inexperience of the yellow belt.

    Well, I'm just telling you what has been SOP in Judo competition for a while, not that I agree with it under all circumstances.

    Little kids, it's a good idea. Experienced grown up, not so much.

    And yes, inexperienced yellow belt 7 year old competing with a 10 year old orange belt under what appear to be normal shiai rules.

    That's bad juju, man, bad juju.

    Hey Raj, that's not kosher in Canada as far as I know, is it ? 10 year old vs 7 year old, normal shiai rules ? Or even 7 year old competing period ?

    If you look at the sizes of yell/orange there seems to be a large 7yr old and a small 10yr old?
    A local tournament would not be able to do multiple age with weight categories not enough players, to many medals.
    Most would be weight only perhaps under 12yrs over 12yrs these would be weight categorised.
    if that is the case then perhaps the sensei/dad may have been a bit quick in subjecting the 7yr old to that particular tournament.
    Perhaps the OP could shed light on this.
    But nothing could excuse oranges behaviour..... other that apologies then and there from and to parties concerned.....
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    judo66

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by judo66 on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:13 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Wow, that looked like some sort of blow was intended.

    The ref probably should have called mate' as they stood up from the original ne waza position, would be SOP to do so.

    Other question is 10 year old vs 7 year old, not a good idea at all. Those looked like pretty normal shiai rules to me. 7 year olds around here don't compete, and for sure not under normal shiai rules.

    The ref was not very experienced is obvious.

    I've watched it several times...orange belt IMO purposely smacked the kid on bottom.



    Why would the ref call matte both yellow and orange stood up after tokita was called. The orange belt took advantage, just the inexperience of the yellow belt.

    Well, I'm just telling you what has been SOP in Judo competition for a while, not that I agree with it under all circumstances.

    Little kids, it's a good idea. Experienced grown up, not so much.

    And yes, inexperienced yellow belt 7 year old competing with a 10 year old orange belt under what appear to be normal shiai rules.

    That's bad juju, man, bad juju.

    Hey Raj, that's not kosher in Canada as far as I know, is it ? 10 year old vs 7 year old, normal shiai rules ? Or even 7 year old competing period ?


    Indeed it is not kosher in Canada to have a 7 year old competing.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:16 am

    medo wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Wow, that looked like some sort of blow was intended.

    The ref probably should have called mate' as they stood up from the original ne waza position, would be SOP to do so.

    Other question is 10 year old vs 7 year old, not a good idea at all. Those looked like pretty normal shiai rules to me. 7 year olds around here don't compete, and for sure not under normal shiai rules.

    The ref was not very experienced is obvious.

    I've watched it several times...orange belt IMO purposely smacked the kid on bottom.



    Why would the ref call matte both yellow and orange stood up after tokita was called. The orange belt took advantage, just the inexperience of the yellow belt.

    Well, I'm just telling you what has been SOP in Judo competition for a while, not that I agree with it under all circumstances.

    Little kids, it's a good idea. Experienced grown up, not so much.

    And yes, inexperienced yellow belt 7 year old competing with a 10 year old orange belt under what appear to be normal shiai rules.

    That's bad juju, man, bad juju.

    Hey Raj, that's not kosher in Canada as far as I know, is it ? 10 year old vs 7 year old, normal shiai rules ? Or even 7 year old competing period ?

    If you look at the sizes of yell/orange there seems to be a large 7yr old and a small 10yr old?
    A local tournament would not be able to do multiple age with weight categories not enough players, to many medals.
    Most would be weight only perhaps under 12yrs over 12yrs these would be weight categorised.
    if that is the case then perhaps the sensei/dad may have been a bit quick in subjecting the 7yr old to that particular tournament.
    Perhaps the OP could shed light on this.
    But nothing could excuse oranges behaviour..... other that apologies then and there from and to parties concerned.....

    No, no excuses for the orange belt for sure.

    Medo, care to tell us about the physiological/developmental differences between a 10 and 7 year old and why based on that it's OK to pair them up in a what appears to be a normal shiai rules (or any shiai for that matter) ?

    Just curious, man, just curious.

    And if the Dad didn't know better, the coach sure as hell should have.



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    inkpen

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by inkpen on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:14 pm

    In this comp my son had 3 bouts in the under 8's and 4 matches in the under 11's. Tournament officials suggested these 4 bouts (in the higher age group) to me minutes before comp started. I agreed. Am following the discussions with interest. I am relatively new to judo. I am aghast at the handling of this by Judo Federation Australia (JFA). The CEO of JFA informed me I would have to pay $44,000 + GST if I wished to pursue with Formal Complaints I was compelled to submit. I would be very grateful if you folk could post a comment on the YouTube link to put pressure on JFA to stop condoning an act of violence. Many people sympathized with my stance privately and urged me to take on JFA BUT when it has come to making a stand pubicaly they are nowhere to be found!!!
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    Steve Leadbeater

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:46 pm

    You could always show the video to one of those Law Firms that work on "No Win, No Fee" and see what they say..................tell them everything, leave nothing out.

    Raj Venugopal

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:53 pm

    I'm no authority on such things, but for younger kids (U10) they use modified shiai rules- starting from the knees and accumulation of points til a maximum of 30 using a combination of ippon, wazari and yuko. Unless the kid is a special case ("early bloomer") this age difference is not acceptable. All 3 of my kids have competed from a young age, my youngest fought in the fall as a 5 year old using these modified rules. The refs are extra vigiliant to ensure no neck pressure is being applied with the hold downs.
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    Nic

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Nic on Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:30 am

    What is it you'd like the authorities to do? What would make you feel better? What happened to your son, was he injured?

    It looks to me like normal child behaviour, kids can be little shits! I see the kids in my Judo class use a little extra force or weight when it really isn't necessary just to be mean to their opponent. I'm not sure why they do it, some kids do it more than others. When I was competing as a kid I remember being on the receiving end, though it's possible I was just as guilty. It does seem to more prevalent amongst the boys, particularly those whose Dad's are obviously quite competative.

    It looks like a classic "oops, I didn't mean to hit him" situation to me. Translated to, "I was going for the grip but saw an opportunity to pop him in the face on my way there".

    The coach should punish the child for the behaviour after seeing the video, but I'm not sure what the judo federation should do about it. Maybe look into whether the coach is aggressive & spends time teaching the kids dirty tactics.

    Again I ask, what would you like to see happen? If you were in the States you'd probably be suing someone by now. Would that make you feel better? Personally I think I'd tell me child that kids can be rotten little shits & that you shouldn't fall to their level. Rise above it & make sure you beat the kid cleanly with a nice ippon next time you compete against one another!

    davidn

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by davidn on Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:19 am


    my 2 bits as parent of 7 year old.

    1. 7 and 10 year old should not have been together
    2. Referee should have called mate (ok, that's what it looks like, I'm not really one to ask, but it looks like the orange belt had unfair advantage)
    3. I don't think the kid went in with intention to punch someone.

    It looks to me like kid is going for kesa gatame, but jumping in carelessly. Should he be warned? Of course (especially considering he's 3 years older). Was he jumping in with the thought of "I'm going to punch this guy in the face?" doubtful. It's difficult to tell if his arm is being partially pushed/blocked, but he ends up gripping the collar.

    I'd have to show to our friendly neighborhood "A" referee, but it looks more incidental than intentional to me.
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    Glorfindel

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by Glorfindel on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:24 pm

    Not to be picky but, we dont allow kids to be punched in tha face in mma either...

    Just b y the sound it was an evident strike.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by finarashi on Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:57 pm

    it does not matter whether the punch was intentional or not. In connection of new rule of touching below waist it has been emphasised that it does not matter whether it was intentional or not. Similarly in earlier days this has been clear in judging.
    IMHO disqualification is the right choise.
    On the other hand in the juniors one tends to overlook many things.
    When it comes to what then there are few things.
    No the result can not be changed afterwards. We did not change results from other more famous matches including Olympic gold. In judo there does not exist something like acknowledgement of wrong result. The only thing is that referee committee can give an interpretation that "from now on" one should do like this.
    You have not stated what you would like as outcome of this. No the referee nor the judge can not get a formal reprimand from their interpretation of rules. In Judo the only "penalty" for the referee is that he/she is not elected to referee big events like national and international championships; the only competitions where referees are selected not nominated. No the compettion officiels can not overrule someting which is in the referee rules. The head referee could have changed the result as long as the match was not over, but now is too late.
    Even if I punched someone on the face during a international match I doubt that would be grounds for and formal penalty like banning from compettition etc. I would naturally loose my face, my promotion chances etc. but formally very little.
    But here in JudoForum you have won the moral right that your kid was not treated FAIR. So in my competion days I can count with my fingers and toes the number of times I was not treated fair. Life is not fair. People make judgement errors. Especially young referees make judgement errors.

    P.S. I was for more than decade the guy in our national association that handled these kind of things.


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    inkpen

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by inkpen on Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:31 pm

    What do I want? I want restorative justice. It would be desirable for the 10yo offender to watch this footage with his parents and his coach. He should then be given a formal warning not to repeat such an action. This is a serious safety issue.  My son was fortunate not to be seriously injured. The kid should then apologise to my son. As I said previously I do not want to crucify the kid, as in the heat of the moment we can all make bad decisions.

    The crux of the  problem in this whole affair is that judo is investigating Judo. There is no separation of powers and therefore justice is unlikely to ensue. In addition the perception of impartiality is totally absent. There was not one impartial / neutral member on the Referees Commission who ruled on the action of their club member (Marrara Judo Club). Further this club wields majority power in JFA(NT).  The sport here at state level is run as a family fiefdom. No dissent or questioning is tolerated. Also at federal level Judo Federation Australia (JFA) consider themselves answerable and accountable to no-one. They are a law unto themselves.

    For 6 weeks after this incident I tried to have these measures implemented but was ignored by Marrara Judo Club and JFA (NT).  I was forced to submit a Formal Complaint and undergo the Complaints Procedure Process within the sport. I escalated the matter from state to federal level as I was being ignored and stonewalled. I was shocked by  the response. This was the same as I had experienced at state level.
    This incident and the handling of it by Judo Federation Australia (JFA) clearly contravenes the JFA Refereeing Rules 2014-2016 and the JFA  Member Protection Policy version 6 June 2014. In addition the handling of this matter makes a mockery of the values and regulation of "Play by The Rules". Despite JFA clearly breaching these guidelines they do not seem to care. I have also submitted further Formal Complaints due to attempted intimidation and breach of confidence. JFA have tried to drag the investigation of these Complaints into the legal sphere at my expense (some $44,000 + GST).
    They have refused to condemn this foul and in so doing have condoned this act of violence in sport. They have bringing the great sport of Judo into disrepute. JFA have a track record of poor governance and lack of transparency and accountability. They also have a history of trying to silence criticism and avoiding  scrutiny. Their lack of integrity betrays the rank and file judo players who strive to live up to the noble principles of integrity, fair play, honour & honesty on which Judo is founded.

    Therefore in addition to restorative justice for my son I want to see a change in process and more integrity in governance. Unethical behaviour and practices, cronyism and cover-ups need to be eliminated. They are damaging the sport in Australia and affecting its success.

    To the person who agreed with the verdict of incidental contact consider this. Initially I was certain that you only pull your arm back to deliver a strike (in this case 600mm behind his head). However Judo experts have told me there are 2 exceptions to this 1) if you pull your hand back to go for a grip over the shoulder or 2) if you pull your hand back as a feint before  going for a grip with the other hand. In this situation neither of these 2 exceptions apply. And so in my mind, and that of many others, this is a deliberate strike. Some have suggested it is a palm heel strike or tiger claw strike. It starts with a fist but is an open hand on contact. But nevertheless still a deliberate strike.


    Last edited by inkpen on Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity for reading)

    jkw

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    Re: Is this judo or MMA? http://youtu.be/PcGB6Dw57dg

    Post by jkw on Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:48 am

    inkpen wrote:What do I want? I want restorative justice.

    I am sorry your NGB hasn't been helpful with this,  but I also think you are overreacting.

    Your 7 year old child shouldn't have been on the mat with a 10 year old kid. Ideally your club coach would have advised you so, but ultimately you shouldn't have allowed this situation to arise. I'm not convinced there is much need for 7 year olds to compete at all, except for perhaps a carefully managed dojo shiai.

    How does your 7 year old feel about the event?

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