E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Share
    noboru
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 683
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic
    • Post n°1

    Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by noboru on Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:28 am


    http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=147

    P38: “Jigoro Kano, the founder of Kodokan Judo, paid a visit to the Mejiro dojo in October 1930. Kano, a cosmopolitan, English-speaking intellectual, was in most respects the diametrical opposite of the old-fashioned mystic Morihei, but he too was dazzled by Morihei’s techniques. ‘This is the ideal budo — true Judo’, Kano exclaimed after witnessing Morihei’s performance. Kano humbly asked Morihei to accept two of his senior students as trainees; Morihei agreed and Kano had them report to him regularly the results of their study with the master. There is another story that Kano and Morihei met again and after Morihei toyed with four or five of Kano’s best students he asked the Judo patriarch rather sharply, ‘Just what kind of budo are you teaching at the Kodokan?’ Somewhat sheepishly, Kano replied, ‘Our system is more a form of physical education than pure budo.’”
    DOSHU: This is a much-talked-about story. However, since I was in the fourth year of elementary school then, I do not know any details. It is true that Kano Sensei was really impressed with my father’s techniques. I understand that Kano Sensei did say, “This is real budo, the true Judo.” I also understand that his student named Mr. Hideyuki Nagaoka then asked a question in return, “Does that mean that what we are practicing is not true Judo then?” I have heard that in answering this question Kano Sensei replied, “That’s not the case. Kodokan Judo is the Judo of 90 degree angles and Aikido is the Judo of 180 degree angles.” Although many people have talked about things which occurred later I am not familiar with the details.
    • Back to top
    NBK
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1177
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan
    • Post n°2

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by NBK on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:59 am

    Great story - I had not seen the last quote regarding the 90 and 180 degrees. Thanks for posting.

    The primary connection between Kano shihan and Ueshiba Morihei sensei was Tomiki Kenji sensei, who was both a judoka and studied aikido. Tomiki sensei was the first promoted to aikido 8dan by Ueshiba sensei after they joined the Nihon Butokukai and adopted regular ranks.
    • Back to top
    Ben Reinhardt
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA
    • Post n°3

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:19 am

    Aikido is about the entering...irimi...and universal peace as well.

    Not something that us heard of in Judo very much (either one, Mifune sensei judo song aside), but something that is used and does happen. Irimi is IMO harder to do/apply when you are mutually gripped as we do in Judo.





    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    • Back to top
    NBK
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1177
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan
    • Post n°4

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by NBK on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:22 am

    Judoka are trained from first stages to counter entries, not allow as aikido practices.

    That very fudoshin / unmovable spirit and the maintenance of shizentai / natural posture mentioned by Noboru in another thread work against aikido techniques, I think. Sometimes I'll try an aikido technique against someone in judo keiko, and typically if they're mature, skilled judoka the techniques aren't effective. If they're junior, smaller, or taken by surprise, yes, often they work, but not on a reasonably competent judoka. I'm not saying I know a lot of aikido, but just enough to make the comparison.
    • Back to top
    noboru
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 683
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic
    • Post n°5

    Kano and his idea of judo

    Post by noboru on Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:03 pm

    Im ill this week and I have time look after interesting sources and post it here...

    In the first post in this thread is curios Kano`s comment about what is all judo...

    Kisshomaru Ueshiba wrote:I understand that Kano Sensei did say, “This is real budo, the true Judo.” I also understand that his student named Mr. Hideyuki Nagaoka then asked a question in return, “Does that mean that what we are practicing is not true Judo then?” I have heard that in answering this question Kano Sensei replied, “That’s not the case. Kodokan Judo is the Judo of 90 degree angles and Aikido is the Judo of 180 degree angles.”

    How did Kanó Jigoró think? What is his idea of judo?

    ?????

    I read some works from prof. Fumiaki Shishida (judo sensei and Tomiki aikidó sensei) and there I found some answers and new question.
    Here ae the works - they are public for download
    1. A Judo that Incorporates Kendo: Jigoro Kano’s Ideas and Their Theoretical Development    www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1057769
    2. Judo’s techniques performed from a distance: The origin of Jigoro Kano’s concept and its actualization by Kenji Tomiki  www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1057826


    After Kanó death some judo teachers continued in Kanó ideas and develop judo technigues from long distance...
    1, Kenji Tomiki -  Tomiki aikidó
    2, Kyuzó Mifune and his interesting demonstration of ball or sphere principles -  he demonstrated it from long distance ...
    3, Shizuya Sató - Nihon jujutsu
    4, Kódókan - Kódókan goshin jutsu no kata
    5, may be next others teachers

    Back to Fumiaki Shishida works. There is lot of curious Kanó quotes (in todays judo sport eyes).

    People that only know this type of judo
    may not understand the concerns voiced in the following
    remarks of Kano in 1918: In the Kodokan, each person
    practices randori by grasping his opponent’s collar and sleeve.
    This must be done for beginners to improve their skill, but that
    method is not the ultimate one. If you grasp your opponent’s
    collar and sleeve, you must grasp extremely softly and without
    strength. Otherwise, you cannot move quickly [9, p.76].

    In 1935, Kano [14] set up a committee to study model
    randori. Kano’s suggestion is just shizentai or natural posture.
    He says: If you practice in shizentai, it is much easier to
    dodge atemi than the posture of pulling in your stomach and
    sticking your head out, because your head separates from your
    opponent… Even when you attack, it is easy for you in shizentai
    to strike and kick an opponent [14, pp.2–3].

    In 1937, before he passed away, Kano [15] announced
    the aim of a special course of randori to be arranged in
    the near future. I cannot understand the difference between
    these two items, but can understand well what
    Kano emphasized most based on the following remarks:
    • Current randori is unsuitable both as practice of actual
    fighting and physical education because practitioners
    adopted bad practices because of the insufficiency of careful
    instruction, due to the rapid spread of judo… Many people
    practice without care, using bad posture, such as spreading
    their legs widely, pulling in their stomach, stretching their
    head out, so that he cannot dodge from an opponent’s atemi.
    • We should revise it as fast as possible. Otherwise, judo will
    decrease in value, both as actual fighting and physical
    education…
    • Bad postures in randori that are not useful in actual fighting
    were sometimes overlooked by a referee. I believe that the
    current way of practice will change completely if we improve
    how it is judged, such as warning each time, and judging
    the offender the loser in case he repeats (his offense) several
    times [15, pp.2–3].

    The event of the cause was Kano’s encouragement
    when Tomiki visited Kano with Takasaki
    at Kano’s office at the Kodokan in March of 1936 to
    extend his regards to Kano prior to Tomiki leaving for
    Manchukuo. According to Tomiki, the following conversation
    took place between Kano and Tomiki [17, p.8]:
    • Kano: It is necessary for us to learn techniques that you
    learned from Ueshiba. But it is not easy to learn.
    • Tomiki: If we study those techniques using the “Principles
    of Judo” or the scientific principles of judo that Master
    discovered, I think that it won’t be impossible.4
    • Kano: Do your best!5

    Kano [11] explained it in 1930 as follows:
    “A practitioner should grab the collar and sleeve using fingers
    softly, handling an opponent’s suit as if being careful not to
    smash a boiled egg. If one grabbed with too much strength the
    opponent, who could feel it, could prepare to respond before you
    could cause kuzushi or transition to another technique because
    you need to get rid of finger strength when you change.”
    We should understand how Kano taught judo in the early
    years of the Kodokan in order to understand Kano’s
    remarks. Kano [12] mentioned in around 1927: “Judoka
    have to be able to avoid an opponent’s kicking and striking, and
    to move around freely and promptly. Kodokan people practice
    randori by grabbing the color and sleeve. This method is not
    the final method, but the requisite for beginners to learn.     When
    you grab the collar and sleeve, you should do it extremely softly,
    and never grabbing strongly. If not, you can’t avoid kicks and
    strikes quickly.”

    Kano [12: 54] also stated the following important remarks in around 1927: In judo, practitioners apply not only stabs but also throws and gyaku (e.g. twisting an arm so as to bend it against the normal turn of the joint) so that it is not that they must always perform techniques at a distance from each other like boxing. On one occasion, you approach an opponent to grab the clothes, hand(s), or a neck. But even in this occasion, you must approach in a manner to defend yourself against the opponent’s stab and kick. How to approach the opponent is, on one occasion, (1) that you step forward to his right side whilst you pull the opponent’s right wrist or sleeve. In this case, the opponent can’t attack you because his right hand is controlled by the grabbing. (2) The opponent’s left hand is free to attack, but it is far to reach you so that you are in little danger. The same thing happens to the opponent’s left leg. The opponent’s right leg is located inconveniently because of being much too close together to attack. You should approach an opponent with this way of thinking. You should not approach him imprudently.

    What do you think about these quotes?

    For judo as budó/selfdefence system (Kanos note about judo incorporates kendo) could we study more tegatana (hand as sword), seichusen (keep centerline) and be able to float from tomaai (long distance), chikama (closest distance) and using judo all techniques( atemi waza, kansetsu waza, nage waza, jime waza, katame waza)?


    Thank you for your comments, completions, negations, specifications.
    • Back to top
    noboru
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 683
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic
    • Post n°6

    Aikido Counter techniques against Judo

    Post by noboru on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:00 am

    Fumiaki Shishida Waseda University, Tokyo, Japan:
    Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s
    http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=855001

    This article will clarify the process of forming aikido
    in 1930s through analyzing Ueshiba’s 147 counter
    techniques against judo. This analysis based upon
    Takeshita’s notes Kon, which were written between
    spring 1930 and winter 1931. The Kon is a 252-page set
    of notes, which have not been studied in the academic
    literature regarding aikido in Japan despite it has
    been known among aikido practitioners. These notes
    contain 1,095 techniques classifi ed into 39 forms of
    fi ghting [2]. Author focus on 147 techniques described
    as “Tai judo” or counter techniques against judo.
    Author will also compare Ueshiba’s counter techniques
    against judo with the techniques of Kito-ryu
    jujutsu (originally called Kito-ryu), one of the most
    infl uential martial arts styles of the Edo era (1600-
    1868). It is well known that Jigoro Kano created judo
    through the study of two kinds of jujutsu, Kito-ryu and
    Tenjin-shinyo-ryu. Interestingly, that Ueshiba also
    studied Kito-ryu and judo before he learned Daito-ryu.
    The study of Kito-ryu within the context of both aikido
    and judo can be signifi cant not only to recognize
    aikido history but also to understand the technical
    relation between aikido and judo. Even though aikido
    became popular in recent decades over the world,
    almost nobody knows how it was established.
    • Back to top
    Ben Reinhardt
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA
    • Post n°7

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:12 am

    noboru wrote:Fumiaki Shishida Waseda University, Tokyo, Japan:
    Counter techniques against Judo: the process of forming Aikido in 1930s
    http://www.archbudo.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=855001

    This article will clarify the process of forming aikido
    in 1930s through analyzing Ueshiba’s 147 counter
    techniques against judo. This analysis based upon
    Takeshita’s notes Kon, which were written between
    spring 1930 and winter 1931. The Kon is a 252-page set
    of notes, which have not been studied in the academic
    literature regarding aikido in Japan despite it has
    been known among aikido practitioners. These notes
    contain 1,095 techniques classifi ed into 39 forms of
    fi ghting [2]. Author focus on 147 techniques described
    as “Tai judo” or counter techniques against judo.
    Author will also compare Ueshiba’s counter techniques
    against judo with the techniques of Kito-ryu
    jujutsu (originally called Kito-ryu), one of the most
    infl uential martial arts styles of the Edo era (1600-
    1868). It is well known that Jigoro Kano created judo
    through the study of two kinds of jujutsu, Kito-ryu and
    Tenjin-shinyo-ryu. Interestingly, that Ueshiba also
    studied Kito-ryu and judo before he learned Daito-ryu.
    The study of Kito-ryu within the context of both aikido
    and judo can be signifi cant not only to recognize
    aikido history but also to understand the technical
    relation between aikido and judo. Even though aikido
    became popular in recent decades over the world,
    almost nobody knows how it was established.

    Nice find ! Too bad no illustrations though. I'd like to see what the techniques are.


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    • Back to top
    NBK
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1177
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan
    • Post n°8

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by NBK on Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:49 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:......

    Nice find ! Too bad no illustrations though. I'd like to see what the techniques are.
    Shishida sensei cites the main one, the subject of the paper: hikiotoshi.

    Here's Tomiki Kenji sensei, who at the time of Admiral Takeshita's study of aikidó was probably the most advanced of Ueshiba sensei's student (Tomiki was the first aikidó 8dan, promoted personally by Ueshiba sensei who traveled to Manchuria to do so in 1942), performing hikiotoshi (pulling down) in the 抑技 osaewaza (suppression or pushing down techniques) section.  This is probably the best representation you're likely to find.

    3:11 min if the link doesn't start there.  

    All the combinations are almost certainly manipulations of the attacker's various grasps to break his grip, get him offbalance and into position to complete hikiotoshi, the pulling down.  And uke is pulled face down, not on his back, as this is aikibujutsu, not júdó.  

    I practiced very similar techniques today in giving a Nihon Jújutsu class, which is a direct descendant of these pre-WWII aikibujutsu arts as taught by Ueshiba sensei to the Japanese Military Police, the Nakano Intelligence School, and a number of other Imperial military units.  Tomiki sensei was teaching aikibujutsu to the Kantó Rikugun Military Police, the Japanese military police and direct action special forces in Manchuria.
    • Back to top
    Ben Reinhardt
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA
    • Post n°9

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:56 am

    NBK wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:......

    Nice find ! Too bad no illustrations though. I'd like to see what the techniques are.
    Shishida sensei cites the main one, the subject of the paper: hikiotoshi.

    Here's Tomiki Kenji sensei, who at the time of Admiral Takeshita's study of aikidó was probably the most advanced of Ueshiba sensei's student (Tomiki was the first aikidó 8dan, promoted personally by Ueshiba sensei who traveled to Manchuria to do so in 1942), performing hikiotoshi (pulling down) in the 抑技 osaewaza (suppression or pushing down techniques) section.  This is probably the best representation you're likely to find.

    3:11 min if the link doesn't start there.  

    All the combinations are almost certainly manipulations of the attacker's various grasps to break his grip, get him offbalance and into position to complete hikiotoshi, the pulling down.  And uke is pulled face down, not on his back, as this is aikibujutsu, not júdó.  

    I practiced very similar techniques today in giving a Nihon Jújutsu class, which is a direct descendant of these pre-WWII aikibujutsu arts as taught by Ueshiba sensei to the Japanese Military Police, the Nakano Intelligence School, and a number of other Imperial military units.  Tomiki sensei was teaching aikibujutsu to the Kantó Rikugun Military Police, the Japanese military police and direct action special forces in Manchuria.

    Thanks for posting that. I've seen that particular video before. Tomiki Sensei has some serious tai sabaki going on. He makes that sort of thing look like it could actually work in real life.







    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    • Back to top
    BillC
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California
    • Post n°10

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by BillC on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:58 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:......

    Nice find ! Too bad no illustrations though. I'd like to see what the techniques are.
    Shishida sensei cites the main one, the subject of the paper: hikiotoshi.

    Here's Tomiki Kenji sensei, who at the time of Admiral Takeshita's study of aikidó was probably the most advanced of Ueshiba sensei's student (Tomiki was the first aikidó 8dan, promoted personally by Ueshiba sensei who traveled to Manchuria to do so in 1942), performing hikiotoshi (pulling down) in the 抑技 osaewaza (suppression or pushing down techniques) section.  This is probably the best representation you're likely to find.  

    All the combinations are almost certainly manipulations of the attacker's various grasps to break his grip, get him offbalance and into position to complete hikiotoshi, the pulling down.  And uke is pulled face down, not on his back, as this is aikibujutsu, not júdó.  

    I practiced very similar techniques today in giving a Nihon Jújutsu class, which is a direct descendant of these pre-WWII aikibujutsu arts as taught by Ueshiba sensei to the Japanese Military Police, the Nakano Intelligence School, and a number of other Imperial military units.  Tomiki sensei was teaching aikibujutsu to the Kantó Rikugun Military Police, the Japanese military police and direct action special forces in Manchuria.

    Thanks for posting that. I've seen that particular video before. Tomiki Sensei has some serious tai sabaki going on. He makes that sort of thing look like it could actually work in real life.

    Yeah ... and a couple-three actually do ... then you look around and say to yourself "there's 14 million of them in this town and only one of me ... time to skee-daddle" or on other occasions "where did all the train conductors suddenly come from?" or the even more tedious "THAT'S what I'd do if someone came at me with a chef's knife you stupid @$$#ole."


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    • Back to top
    NBK
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1177
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan
    • Post n°11

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by NBK on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:11 am

    Tomiki sensei really stressed taisabaki / body movement, and as you said, moves with speed and authority that made it stick. Today Shódókan aikidó (sometimes known as Tomiki ryú aikidó) has a more complicated set, more like the 10-12 step series (I think the same, I don't know it even though I've practiced it before) in the video.

    Prewar and during WWII, in aikibujutsu he taught a much simpler, six step taisabaki series to the Japanese military, a version of which we teach today. Left, right, forward left 90 degrees, forward right 90 degrees, back left 90 degrees, back right 90 degrees. Done correctly, i.e., in balance and with proper ma'ai / intervals, you can generate a huge amount of torque while off-balancing your opponent.

    He added the turns and releases during his internment in a Soviet prison camp in Siberia while he practiced what he called júdó taisó / judo calisthenics. He wrote a book about it in the 1950's, very rare today, in which he credited his júdó exercises with keeping him healthy and alive (the death rate in the camps was very high, and he was there for years).

    Tomiki sensei actually thought that aikidó was too difficult to start with, and thought that only after someone had progressed to 3 dan in júdó should they start aikidó with that solid basis in júdó. That didn't match the basis under which he was hired by Waseda University, so even today they start with raw beginners. They drill the taisabaki a lot.

    NBK

    PS - In the video I linked, just for clarity's sake, the name for the technique of pulling uke forward over his toes is 引落　 hikiotoshi - pulling drop.

    The action when he pushes into uke using his arm to connect to his torso / center, turning that into suppressing his elbow once off-balance, is usually called 抑落 osaeotoshi, or pushing drop.

    Both drop uke onto his face. Again, this is self defense against a júdó attack.

    I'm pretty sure what Admiral Takeshita is on about is largely combinations of hikiotoshi or osaeotoshi. We teach simple series that combine taisabaki with hand / arm movements to off-balance uke and wind up his arms to present a locked elbow joint to control no matter how grasped.
    • Back to top
    Ben Reinhardt
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA
    • Post n°12

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:50 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:......

    Nice find ! Too bad no illustrations though. I'd like to see what the techniques are.
    Shishida sensei cites the main one, the subject of the paper: hikiotoshi.

    Here's Tomiki Kenji sensei, who at the time of Admiral Takeshita's study of aikidó was probably the most advanced of Ueshiba sensei's student (Tomiki was the first aikidó 8dan, promoted personally by Ueshiba sensei who traveled to Manchuria to do so in 1942), performing hikiotoshi (pulling down) in the 抑技 osaewaza (suppression or pushing down techniques) section.  This is probably the best representation you're likely to find.  

    All the combinations are almost certainly manipulations of the attacker's various grasps to break his grip, get him offbalance and into position to complete hikiotoshi, the pulling down.  And uke is pulled face down, not on his back, as this is aikibujutsu, not júdó.  

    I practiced very similar techniques today in giving a Nihon Jújutsu class, which is a direct descendant of these pre-WWII aikibujutsu arts as taught by Ueshiba sensei to the Japanese Military Police, the Nakano Intelligence School, and a number of other Imperial military units.  Tomiki sensei was teaching aikibujutsu to the Kantó Rikugun Military Police, the Japanese military police and direct action special forces in Manchuria.

    Thanks for posting that. I've seen that particular video before. Tomiki Sensei has some serious tai sabaki going on. He makes that sort of thing look like it could actually work in real life.

    Yeah ... and a couple-three actually do ... then you look around and say to yourself "there's 14 million of them in this town and only one of me ... time to skee-daddle" or on other occasions "where did all the train conductors suddenly come from?" or the even more tedious "THAT'S what I'd do if someone came at me with a chef's knife you stupid @$$#ole."

    I don't doubt that many of the...techniques in the video really "work". The issue is being skilled enough to pull them off (like Tomiki Sensei, for example). Tomiki was, well, I'll use the work "genius" and let that suffice.

    In fact, the technique all will "work" (Kote Gaeshi, Hineri. etc all work structurally, and can be painfull as hell when applied correctly).

    Anyway, that's getting OT and I mean no disrespect to Tomiki Sensei. Or Shepherd Sensei who is still alive...

    It's interesting that there needed to be "aikido" counters to "Judo grabs".


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    • Back to top
    Ben Reinhardt
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA
    • Post n°13

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:06 am

    NBK wrote:Tomiki sensei really stressed taisabaki / body movement, and as you said, moves with speed and authority that made it stick.  Today Shódókan aikidó (sometimes known as Tomiki ryú aikidó) has a more complicated set, more like the 10-12 step series (I think the same, I don't know it even though I've practiced it before) in the video.

    Shódókan aikidó does randori with and without tanto, correct ? Or is that Yoseikian Budo(Aikido)? Or both ?

    NBK wrote:Prewar and during WWII, in aikibujutsu he taught a much simpler, six step taisabaki series to the Japanese military, a version of which we teach today.  Left, right, forward left 90 degrees, forward right 90 degrees, back left 90 degrees, back right 90 degrees.  Done correctly, i.e., in balance and with proper ma'ai / intervals, you can generate a huge amount of torque while off-balancing your opponent.

    Do you practice that set with or without pre-existing grips/kumi kata applied ?  

    NBK wrote:Tomiki sensei actually thought that aikidó was too difficult to start with, and thought that only after someone had progressed to 3 dan in júdó should they start aikidó with that solid basis in júdó.  That didn't match the basis under which he was hired by Waseda University, so even today they start with raw beginners.  They drill the taisabaki a lot.

    I have read that before regarding aikido being too difficult to start with, and I believe it. One of my sensei did get fairly involved in it for a while, and saw a LOT of applications to Judo, which he worked on quite a bit and incorporated into our training.  

    NBK wrote:PS - In the video I linked, just for clarity's sake, the name for the technique of pulling uke forward over his toes is 引落　 hikiotoshi - pulling drop.

    The action when he pushes into uke using his arm to connect to his torso / center, turning that into suppressing his elbow once off-balance, is usually called 抑落 osaeotoshi, or pushing drop.  

    Both drop uke onto his face.   Again, this is self defense against a júdó attack.

    Thanks, I was wondering which one was which or if it was both.

    I understand the "self defense" versus "Judo" think, but in a sense it's false dichotomy (not as logical fallacy, though...I guess better to say they aren't really that different). I don't know if you are familiar or not, but some skillful "takedowns" to ne waza (in randori or shiai) use the same principles. They are quite rare though today. Of course, under rules, you can't purposely through someone face down in Judo, and for good reason...

    NBK wrote:I'm pretty sure what Admiral Takeshita is on about is largely combinations of hikiotoshi or osaeotoshi.  We teach simple series that combine taisabaki with hand / arm movements to off-balance uke and wind up his arms to present a locked elbow joint to control no matter how grasped.  

    Any video of that ? I think I've tried to find video of Nihon JJ before, but didn't find much. Ever train them to where a skilled judoka tries to get a hold of uke without lunging forward in the typical aikido - esque attack ?



    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    • Back to top
    BillC
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California
    • Post n°14

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by BillC on Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:30 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Any video of that ? I think I've tried to find video of Nihon JJ before, but didn't find much. Ever train them to where a skilled judoka tries to get a hold of uke without lunging forward in the typical aikido - esque attack ?


    You mean "I'll hold my arm out while you beat the crap out me" kinds of attacks? Very Happy

    NBK ... I have video of Miss Satoh and Miss French Freedom Fry learning Sato-sensei's goshinho because I want to learn and teach it to our ladies ... a day I think you were gone and John was teaching. I will not share it as it is private. But certainly just in that case the answer to Ben is yes.

    Ben ... None of the limited amount of stuff I have seen from these guys is completely unfamiliar to a rounded judoka. Next time we bring Satoh-sensei to the US ... the Waseda U Satoh not the cute one ... I'll send you an invite. Meantime Hal Sharp has a video up on Amazon I think. Meantime meantime ... maybe we can get John Gage out to the conference in Idaho this summer.


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    • Back to top
    NBK
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1177
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan
    • Post n°15

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by NBK on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:12 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    NBK wrote:Tomiki sensei really stressed taisabaki / body movement, and as you said, moves with speed and authority that made it stick.  Today Shódókan aikidó (sometimes known as Tomiki ryú aikidó) has a more complicated set, more like the 10-12 step series (I think the same, I don't know it even though I've practiced it before) in the video.

    Shódókan aikidó does randori with and without tanto, correct ? Or is that Yoseikian Budo(Aikido)?  Or both ?

    NBK:  I believe both - but definitely Shódókan aikidó.   Yoseikan Budo often goes hand in hand with Nihon Jujutsu - Mochizuki Minoru sensei learned from Sato Shizuya sensei.  Once they were both in the Kokusai Budoin / International Martial Arts Federation.  There was a falling out (imagine that.... martial artists disagreeing as to Who's In Charge??)  and Mochizuki sensei left the Japanese HQ while taking the European branch (as he'd registered and copyrighted the name.... ugly, pointless really, and now both gents, great martial artists, are long gone).   Mochizuki sensei taught Nihon Jujutsu in addition to Yoseikan Budo, which had more weapons practice and some form of competition, I think IIRC.  There are a small number of Mochizuki sensei-ranked Nihon Jujutsu instructors in Europe only, I think, but they have no standing with IMAF or the HQ dojo, the US Embassy Judo Club.  No one has ever grasped the nettle to bring them back into the organization, but I think they'd be welcome.  

    NBK wrote:Prewar and during WWII, in aikibujutsu he taught a much simpler, six step taisabaki series to the Japanese military, a version of which we teach today.  Left, right, forward left 90 degrees, forward right 90 degrees, back left 90 degrees, back right 90 degrees.  Done correctly, i.e., in balance and with proper ma'ai / intervals, you can generate a huge amount of torque while off-balancing your opponent.

    Do you practice that set with or without pre-existing grips/kumi kata applied ?   

    NBK:  Both.  There are a number of sets, namely:
    starting from shizentai
    - taisabaki only (stepping)
    - taisabaki plus blocking with single te-gatana (hand sword, using the near hand) moving into hikiotoshi or osaeotoshi
    - taisabaki plus blocking with alternate hand blocks (low and doublehand blocks)
    "  "  kicking (low front snap kick to side of knee, then from the outside knee kick to uke's outer thigh / sciatica nerve, inside to the groin, or high kick)
    - "  "  striking drills
    then you add grasps / taisabaki / counters /
    finally into hidari gamae or migi gamae / left or right fighting positions, etc.....

    NBK wrote:Tomiki sensei actually thought that aikidó was too difficult to start with, and thought that only after someone had progressed to 3 dan in júdó should they start aikidó with that solid basis in júdó.  That didn't match the basis under which he was hired by Waseda University, so even today they start with raw beginners.  They drill the taisabaki a lot.

    I have read that before regarding aikido being too difficult to start with, and I believe it. One of my sensei did get fairly involved in it for a while, and saw a LOT of applications to Judo, which he worked on quite a bit and incorporated into our training.   

    NBK wrote:PS - In the video I linked, just for clarity's sake, the name for the technique of pulling uke forward over his toes is 引落　 hikiotoshi - pulling drop.

    The action when he pushes into uke using his arm to connect to his torso / center, turning that into suppressing his elbow once off-balance, is usually called 抑落 osaeotoshi, or pushing drop.  

    Both drop uke onto his face.   Again, this is self defense against a júdó attack.

    Thanks, I was wondering which one was which or if it was both.

    I understand the "self defense" versus "Judo" think, but in a sense it's false dichotomy (not as logical fallacy, though...I guess better to say they aren't really that different). I don't know if you are familiar or not, but some skillful "takedowns" to ne waza (in randori or shiai) use the same principles. They are quite rare though today. Of course, under rules, you can't purposely through someone face down in Judo, and for good reason...

    NBK:   I am familiar with this.   The first references I have from the Kodokan for the ridatsu-ho ('releasing methods', i.e., negating and escaping someone's grasp)  date from the 1920's, IIRC, so even the Kodokan studied the issue.
    - 'Against judo' was not my term, but rather Admiral Takeshita's.  It might be useful to remember that in those days that karate-do was very limited but that judo was very combative, incorporating kicks, strikes, etc........ Very much more like today's karate-do than today's judo.  

    NBK wrote:I'm pretty sure what Admiral Takeshita is on about is largely combinations of hikiotoshi or osaeotoshi.  We teach simple series that combine taisabaki with hand / arm movements to off-balance uke and wind up his arms to present a locked elbow joint to control no matter how grasped.  

    Any video of that ? I think I've tried to find video of Nihon JJ before, but didn't find much. Ever train them to where a skilled judoka tries to get a hold of uke without lunging forward in the typical aikido - esque attack ?

    NBK:  Having studied the hand / arm motions live for near 30 years, I honestly never thought to look for a video.  Surely there is something you can find from aikido, or look for Daito-ryu aikijujutsu or even some ninjer stuff, demo'ing various counters to single and double hand grasps.  

    Nihon Jujutsu attack drills start with thrusts or blows, not grasps.  Those are later, actually easier since you have an clear connection with uke.   This sequence is apparently what Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Tomiki sensei taught prewar.

    It might be useful to think of it this way -

    today's judo ma'ai or interval is about elbow to elbow - engaged in or trying to attain kumu, and only a single step in or turn / rotation to attack

    a typical jujutsu interval is about wrist to wrist or fingertip to fingertip.  there has to be a big step forward, a significant move with or without a reach forward to reach your opponent.  But the interval is very different, and telling.

    You see the same thing in Koshiki no Kata and Kime no Kata.  Even Ju no Kata.  Uke has to reach out for tori, and in the moment he does, he presents a weakness that can be exploited by tori.  Uke doesn't start out of range of tori's reach and launch blows.  

    If uke stands back and rains blows on you, I suggest it's boxing, not judo.  It can be part of jujutsu, and even once dealing with it was part of judo (when judo was still forming from jujutsu - c.f. Kano shihan comments on not bending over because you can be kneed in the face.)  

    NBK
    • Back to top
    noboru
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 683
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic
    • Post n°16

    Kime no kata and Kodokan Goshin jutsu no kata

    Post by noboru on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:51 am

    Thank you guys for discussion. Please can you tell me, what do you thing about Kime no kata and Kodokan Goshin jutsu no kata?

    There is used tegatana only in sense of strike with edge of hand (palm, forearm) - as shuto in shotokan karate. I think that there is not used tegatana in sense as in aikido (or tomiki way in kamae with tegatana).

    I watched the explanations of Shiigi Munenori from seminar in Firenze about Kime no kata and there are some his techniques and their variations. He demonstrated kamae with hand as tegatana and he used it similar). He used tegatana for catching or  bouncing opponents hands and he used tegatana for atemi attacks...

    Here is a video with Shiigi Munenori sensei
    • Back to top
    Ben Reinhardt
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 794
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA
    • Post n°17

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:15 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Any video of that ? I think I've tried to find video of Nihon JJ before, but didn't find much. Ever train them to where a skilled judoka tries to get a hold of uke without lunging forward in the typical aikido - esque attack ?


    You mean "I'll hold my arm out while you beat the crap out me" kinds of attacks?  Very Happy

    NBK ... I have video of Miss Satoh and Miss French Freedom Fry learning Sato-sensei's goshinho because I want to learn and teach it to our ladies ... a day I think you were gone and John was teaching.  I will not share it as it is private.  But certainly just in that case the answer to Ben is yes.  

    Ben ... None of the limited amount of stuff I have seen from these guys is completely unfamiliar to a rounded judoka.  Next time we bring Satoh-sensei to the US ... the Waseda U Satoh not the cute one ... I'll send you an invite.  Meantime Hal Sharp has a video up on Amazon I think.  Meantime meantime ... maybe we can get John Gage out to the conference in Idaho this summer.

    Thanks, Bill. I'll look for Mr. Sharp's video. Not sure who John Gage is...

    Ben

    ***Edit*** Assuming it is this John Gage...
    http://japanesemartialartscenter.com/


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    • Back to top
    NBK
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1177
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan
    • Post n°18

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by NBK on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:51 pm

    He's in that website someplace. Plans to teach at the Japan Martial Arts Center after he returns to the US this May, after near 30 years in Tokyo.
    • Back to top
    noboru
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 683
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 39
    Location : Czech Republic
    • Post n°19

    from Takeshita’s diary

    Post by noboru on Tue May 26, 2015 5:53 am

    Part about judo from arcticle about Takeshita Isamu. There are some informations about relations Judo (Kano) - Aikido (Ueshiba) etc.

    The Process of Forming Aikido and Japanese Imperial Navy Admiral Isamu Takeshita: Through the analysis of Takeshita’s diary from 1925 to 1931
    Fumiaki Shishida (Waseda University, Tokyo, Japan)

    www.isdy.net/pdf/eng/2008_05.pdf

    Relation to Kodokan Judo
    The first appearance of the judo founder Jigoro Kano in Takeshita’s diary was in October 2, 1930. “The master [Ueshiba] met Mr. Jigoro Kano under Mr. Oki’s guidance.”
    Perhaps this was the first meeting between them. Kano seems to have observed Ueshiba’s demonstration from that day to October 28, the day of Kano’s letter of thanks for his visit [Ueshiba, K., 1977, p.205]. Tomiki also said, “Master Kano visited Ueshiba at his dojo under admiral Takeshita’s guidance. That was a plain fact.”(Shishida (Ed.), 1983, p.3.) The diary in March 1, 1931 said, “I went to the dojo at Ushigome-Wakamatsu town and managed to get around hundred and fifty guests to observe the master’s demonstration from 2:30 p.m. Admiral Takarabe, general Fukuda, general Machida, Mr. Jigoro Kano etc., were the main guests.” We can see that Ueshiba and Kano were no strangers to each other.
    On the other hand, we can find restlessness in the Judo world through Chikatami Honda’s’ remarks at a round-table talk after the first national tournament in the presence of the Emperor in 1929. This is made clear in the prominent voluminous book “Showa Tenran Shiai ” [Dainihon-yubenkai-kodansha, 1930, pp.722-723] where it is mentioned that Honda said, “I have some thoughts about Kodokan-Judo. Briefly speaking, there is a person named Ueshiba who practices dangerous joint techniques. ... As vice admiral Todoroki said, there are techniques in recent judo that are not very effective in the case of a real fight like a fight in a trench. ... The following suggestion has been made: why doesn’t Kodokan introduce these techniques; at least a chief secretary of Kodokan should check them for its useful information. ... I as well as master Kano have no objection to checking it, but I have no interest to become his pupil. There are plenty of valuable excuses to the criticism that Kodokan-judo is not efficient due to the fact that judo has no way to finish off an opponent.”
    Honda, a chief secretary of Kodokan, Judo headquarters, seemed to think negatively of those techniques and Ueshiba. However, Kano thought highly of Ueshiba’s skill and said even that this is true judo, once he observed Ueshiba’s demonstrations, accompanied by Shuichi Nagaoka and Kyuzo Mifune, two of his best instructors according to Yoshio Sugino [Editorial Department of the Aiki News, 2006, p.197]. Soon after that, Kano sent two judo students to Ueshiba to study his martial arts in order to introduce it into the Judo system. Such attitude would have influence on senior judo practitioners. The diary states on December 11, 1930, “9 a.m. went to a dojo at Meguro. Tamio Kurihara and [blank space], senior instructors at the Butoku-kai special school for Japanese martial arts, visited there and observed the practice.” Kurihara was the champion of the first national tournament in the presence of the Emperor. We don’t understand his true reason and thoughts for his visit. But negative impacts had been smoldering in the judo world, because judo practitioners were not able to fight with Ueshiba’s pupils to compare their abilities due to lack of a free or competitive practice system like judo and kendo in Ueshiba’s martial arts.
    There is an incident in 1938 that reflects this atmosphere. After Kenji Tomiki, a strong judo practitioner and Ueshiba’s senior student, wrote a long article titled ‘The future of judo and the Aiki-budo’ in the newspaper in Manchukuo, it was reproduced in a journal of judo dividing it into five parts. Strangely enough, however, the title was suddenly changed one-sidedly at the third time of publication with a brief comment informing about the dissatisfaction from subscribers [Shishida, 2005, pp.516-517]. Tomiki’s intention in this article was the same as Kano’s and Kano encouraged him to learn Ueshiba’s martial arts to develop judo in the future. Tomiki said, “I visited master Kano, 77 years old, to greet him, before leaving for my job in Manchuria, March, 1936. Master Kano said, ‘Old jujutsu, which Mr. Ueshiba acquired well, was something like Ueshiba’s martial art. Even Tenjin-shinyo-ryu or others that I learned. But it is difficult to think of how to make a person practice these arts.’ When I answered, ‘That’s true. But shouldn’t I do research for this purpose? He said, ‘Try it, study it, though it is such a difficult problem.’ That was the last time we would meet in my life.” [Shishida (Ed.), 1982, p.5]
    It is clear that the two had a common purpose. Tomiki became a disciple to learn Aiki-jujutsu or Aiki-bujutsu, and he thought that it could contribute to the development of both judo and Aiki-bujutsu. But Tomiki was not Kano and he received a lot of criticism from judo practitioners. Tomiki, judo 5th dan in 1930, was used as a partner by Ueshiba, and took many break-falls to set off Ueshiba’s performance. Because of this, some observers got the impression that Aiki-bujutsu was stronger than judo. This had to be disquieting for judo people. up junior naval officers, Kikangakko, or engineering school, and Keiri gakko, or accounting school. The arrival of Ueshiba influenced such situations in budo education. Vice admiral Seikyo (or Masayasu) Asano, alumna of Takeshita at the Kaigun-heigakko, the naval academy, introduced Takeshita and other army officers, as both he and Ueshiba were adherents of Omoto, and he thought highly of Ueshiba’s martial art. Therefore, many army officers were initiated into his school. “Masamitsu Kinebuchi visited home from Edajima [at Kure, Hiroshima, where the Heigakko was located]. The purpose was to practice Aiki-bujutsu.” (January 5, 1930). Kinebuchi was a judo practitioner through his life. We can find the result of his visit in following description.
    September 6, 1929. “In the afternoon, visited master Ueshiba. He said he was quite delighted as he beat judo instructors at the Kikan-gakko at Maizuru.” With respect to his taking delight, we can read the strain in his instruction. The relevant descriptions are as follows:
    January 17, 1930. “A captain [an illegible word] and Mr. Seiichi Sato, both auditors and instructors at the Heigakko, visited a dojo and observed the class.”
    February 13, 1930. “A letter by Kinebuchi about the Heigakko was received.”
    October 7, 1930. “Judo instructors came and started to practice for two weeks.”
    There is an interesting description, though the descriptions concerning techniques were almost nothing in his diary.
    December 2, 1930. “9 a.m.. came to the dojo and practiced. Taught [Minoru] Mochizuki some techniques to emulate judo.”
    Ueshiba’s success must have been the result of efforts to study judo and other martial arts as applied techniques. Minoru Mochizuki was a judo practitioner and one of the two students who Kano sent to Ueshiba to learn his martial art. The fact that even Takeshita, around 70 years old, taught him shows that at least Ueshiba's senior pupils studied those techniques. These descriptions surely show that Ueshiba had already studied those skills well as well as the basics of Daito-ryu-jujutsu.
    Students of Kenji Tomiki learned those techniques as part of the koryu-daisan-no-kata as basics. However, it is difficult to see a series of those techniques in the textbooks of various aikido organizations. That means that they might have disappeared from Ueshiba’s successors in the process of being handed down to new generations. We should at least understand how Ueshiba showed deep interest in counter techniques against Judo, while we should admit that there are aikido practitioners who value his performances after the second world war above that. No budo will spread without strength. Ueshiba’s martial art spread through his shows of strength against strong opponents, as Kishomaru Ueshiba emphasized in various anecdotes in his biography of his farther. With reference to this, we can appreciate the meaning of the critical remarks of Gozo Shioda (1915-1994), the founder of Yoshinkan aikido. “Current aikido has no core. It is empty in substance. People try to reach the summit without going along the substantial part. So aikido deteriorates into dance or something. Unless we thoroughly acquire the basics, we can not stand atop the summit.”
    That reminds us that, at the time when Ueshiba caused a sensation in Tokyo, Aiki-bujutsu included real skills against other martial arts as well as theory.
    • Back to top
    Sponsored content

    Sponsored content

    • Post n°20

    Re: Kano visit to the Mejiro dojo and watched Morihei Ueshiba`s techniques

    Post by Sponsored content

    • Back to top
      Current date/time is Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:41 am