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    Has anyone seen this technique before?

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    Ryvai

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    Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ryvai on Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:27 pm

    Link to the article



    I thought this technique was pretty interesting. Ignore the fact that the IJF would penalize you for this. The technique is cool nevertheless. Can it it fit into any of the categories of the current Kodokan terminology? Smile

    tafftaz

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by tafftaz on Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:04 am

    Just a form of sutemi waza to my eyes.

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Old Chestnut on Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:31 pm

    Reminds me of this technique from German medieval wrestling, as seen at 0:27 on this video:

    Otherwise my uninformed opinion would be that it's a form of hikikomi gaeshi.
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    Jacob3

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Jacob3 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:10 am

    To me, this is a very familiar technique. Here in Holland, we have a category of techniques called 'hikomi waza'. However, only recently 'we' discovered that we have misspelled it for decades and that it should be spelled 'hikikomi waza'. It has been discussed on the old forum also, and in spite of this category being very common here and even a requirement for dan-grading, it is my understanding that only us awkward Dutch folks use this category as such.

    These techniques are supposed to be legit techniques to bring your partner to the ground, without it being a real throw. Aka standing turnovers. In the past, when someone would perform such a technique in competition, they would not score any point, but were allowed to proceed in newaza. I dont know how that would be handled nowadays in competition, but still they are very decent techniques. In fact, I am sure that many of them are real, fullgrown throws ( even hikikomi gaeshi is one of them ). There is quite a vast amount of them. I have performed a few of them back then, for discussion purposes, and taped them. You can see them here, to see what I mean. For the record: I made the clip unrecognisable because there are too many other people training aswel.


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    Udon

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Udon on Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:04 am

    That was a very interesting video. Nice looking techniques. Thanks.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by finarashi on Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:01 pm

    Good video


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    Ricebale

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ricebale on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:56 pm

    Ryvai wrote:Link to the article



    I thought this technique was pretty interesting. Ignore the fact that the IJF would penalize you for this. The technique is cool nevertheless. Can it it fit into any of the categories of the current Kodokan terminology? Smile

    I could probably dig up the Sambo name for this, I've seen a Judo guy demo it also, name no idea.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by finarashi on Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:32 am

    I agree that the principle is more to the line "take someone to the ground" than throw. i.e. the tori grabs both hand and leg at the same time he sacrifices his balance.  =Hikikomi waza.
    It is not a throw because tori takes a hold and then hits the ground holding the uke still at the same position. i.e. uke is only bought down using a lever type of action involving hold on leg.
    One could also argue that this is laats i.e. kata-guruma variation because the principle of grabbing the leg and arm at the same side is  there, but there is no guruma style action.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:51 am

    I agree with the hikkomi-waza analysis.

    I'll also point out that when I had this done to me (in randori) an arm-bar was applied to my arm on the side attacked, as part of the throwing action. I had to jump or my arm would have been injured.



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    Jacob3

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:55 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I agree with the hikkomi-waza analysis.

    I'll also point out that when I had this done to me (in randori) an arm-bar was applied to my arm on the side attacked, as part of the throwing action. I had to jump or my arm would have been injured.


    There are indeed several techniques with that principle. Like the one at 1.10. Those are not techniques for beginners.

    Old Chestnut

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Old Chestnut on Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:18 pm

    Ude gaeshi? I have a hard time with that one.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:42 am

    Old Chestnut wrote:Ude gaeshi? I have a hard time with that one.

    Who said it was Ude Gaeshi ?


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    Old Chestnut

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Old Chestnut on Sat Apr 18, 2015 5:01 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Who said it was Ude Gaeshi ?


    re:
    Jacob3 wrote:Like the one at 1.10.

    I could be mistaken.
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    Ryvai

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ryvai on Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:07 pm

    It does appear to be a yoko-sutemi-waza version of hikikomi-gaeshi, but the grasping of the leg puzzles me a bit. If I'm not mistaken 引込 hikikomi means that the opponent is pulled into you before performing the sutemi-waza, so it makes sense to fall into that category Smile
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:18 am

    Ryvai wrote:It does appear to be a yoko-sutemi-waza version of hikikomi-gaeshi, but the grasping of the leg puzzles me a bit. If I'm not mistaken 引込 hikikomi means that the opponent is pulled into you before performing the sutemi-waza, so it makes sense to fall into that category Smile

    Grabbing the leg traps the arm. So you end up with the leg and arm trapped on one side, then you roll to execute. Same principle as used in ne waza to turn someone.

    Plus, the arm is trapped in such a way as to cause an arm-lock/bar.



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    tafftaz

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:25 am

    The problem with videos like this are that people with a little experience of judo see them on the web and decide "wow, that looks cool,will try that next randori". Then someone ends up in casualty with a broken arm.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:40 am

    tafftaz wrote:The problem with videos like this are that people with a little experience of judo see them on the web and decide "wow, that looks cool,will try that next randori". Then someone ends up in casualty with a broken arm.

    If they can even figure out how to do it from a video. The first time I had that one done to me I was like "WTF", then I jumped to avoid an injured arm.

    To say the least I was little pissed off. The guy I was doing randori with was a lot bigger than me and wasn't making any progress, so he pulled out that trick.

    Which was really not necessary because he was at least as good as me and quite a bit bigger and stronger.



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    tafftaz

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:57 am

    Got a russian guy in club with us, not long a shodan. Technically poor, but very strong and big. Got to watch him like a hawk as this is something that he would try, and fail dismally.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:38 am

    tafftaz wrote:Got a russian guy in club with us, not long a shodan. Technically poor, but very strong and big. Got to watch him like a hawk as this is something that he would try, and fail dismally.

    Well, good thing that bear hugs aren't "legal" anymore.



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    tafftaz

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:00 am

    Very Happy

    medo

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by medo on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:47 pm

    tafftaz wrote:The problem with videos like this are that people with a little experience of judo see them on the web and decide "wow, that looks cool,will try that next randori". Then someone ends up in casualty with a broken arm.

    Years ago had a few months in beginner start doing Kanibasami uranagi ect, when questioned he'd bought eric dominoes beginner to black belt book and decided to start in the back of the book, unfortunately had to ban him injured a few players even after having a long talk with him he still kept trying techniques that he thought he'd learnt from a picture and he was a big guy Mad .

    aiyotsu

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    Re: Has anyone seen this technique before?

    Post by aiyotsu on Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:06 am

    Hello --Well I find this very interesting. My Sensei Taught us this technique one evening many years ago, just out of the blue. Later I asked him more about it, where it was from and what it was called. He told me that it had no name and that he had seen it in a dream. He thought it a valid technique and worked it out with us.
    I took it back to the club I was running and taught it to all, from 5 year olds to seniors, some of whom were moderately seasoned BJJers cross training in Judo. It was universally liked. The kids found it an easy and low impact sutemi, that was a confidence builder, and heaps of fun to do.
    The seniors likewise, but also a quick easy takedown with considerable surprise element that also disoriented Uke on the way down.
    Inevitably students wanted a name for the move. I confessed it had not a name and challenged the club members to come up with one.Many innovative names were offered. Eventually an 8 year old yellow belt said "Grip roll", we all agreed at once. So for us the technique was and is the Grip Roll.

    I was uke to just about everyone but never felt pressure on my arm, Though I know it could be applied, just as you can in many throws.

    For beginers I taught a long step in/past with the left foot before rolling down, Once confidence was gained, then much as the OPs video shows. Later a sharp pull down and inward on Uke's arm and a fast dive roll in, catching the leg on the way.
    Like I said it was fun and confidence building in randori. However for shiai it usually only resulted in a minor score and even a nice clean one would not shock the opponents body in a true ippon. It also took some determination to hold on to Uke for newaza as uke could land some distance away. But again the uke would be disorented and lay there so a quick scramble could secure him/her.
    All this before rule changes.
    It is still worth teaching and practicing just like all the other waza ruled out now for various reasons, which I still see as Judo and still teach and practice. Regards to all aiyotsu

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