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    noboru

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    arcticles about Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata

    Post by noboru on Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:07 pm

    new article from Andreas Quast ( April 8, 2015)

    Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata – The Form of national physical education of maximum efficiency
    http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=3874
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    NBK

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    Re: arcticles about Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata

    Post by NBK on Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:23 am

    Excellent article - thank you for posting.

    There's good research there, it seems, but he unfortunately doesn't cite some of his Japanese sources. I wonder if he's read the Japanese or is working off others' comments about the sources.

    I know the head of the Gima ha Shotokan-ryû karatedô - he's going to love this!

    NBK




    Deshi

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    Re: arcticles about Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata

    Post by Deshi on Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:30 pm

    There are some things I wondered about while reading the article:

    1930? Didn't the Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku came to be a few years earlier than that, as in 1924: http://judoinfo.com/seiryoku.htm ?

    Also isn't it just "Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku" instead of "Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata"
    (Here the official Kodokan page for comparison: http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/forms/ ) ?

    And finally:
    In the original version of “The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu” (1905) there was included a complete chapter on atemi. It should be noted that is unclear how much of Kanō’s “Jiu-Jitsu” is actually represented by this work, ...
    This has been answered long ago (by Kano himself): Nothing.

    There's a lot of info about matters I lack knowledge about, but the problems listed above don't strengthen my trust in those parts.

    How do you feel about the the sample video linked in the article? I am a layman when it comes to kata, but some things felt ... off, to put it carefully.

    wdax

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    Re: arcticles about Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata

    Post by wdax on Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:36 pm

    Deshi wrote:There are some things I wondered about while reading the article:

    1930? Didn't the Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku came to be a few years earlier than that, as in 1924: http://judoinfo.com/seiryoku.htm ?

    Also isn't it just "Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku" instead of "Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata"
    (Here the official Kodokan page for comparison: http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/forms/ ) ?

    And finally:
    In the original version of “The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu” (1905) there was included a complete chapter on atemi. It should be noted that is unclear how much of Kanō’s “Jiu-Jitsu” is actually represented by this work, ...
    This has been answered long ago (by Kano himself): Nothing.

    There's a lot of info about matters I lack knowledge about, but the problems listed above don't strengthen my trust in those parts.

    How do you feel about the the sample video linked in the article? I am a layman when it comes to kata, but some things felt ... off, to put it carefully.

    The mentioned timeline in the article is correct. Of course the development of seirykou-zenyo-kokumin-taiiku started earlier then 1930, but the "official" publication with detailed explanations was in 1930. BTW: the article also mentions Kano´s early system of "gido-taiso" (1909) and Kobo-shiki-kokumin-taiiku from 1927 (but I have 1928 in memory).

    But one must say, that the relation to karate is kind of speculation. But to be fair: the author is honest in this point: "After all it is quite possible that Kanō incorporated his studies on karate in the SZKTK of his Kōdōkan Jūdō. However, it is completely unknown who influenced who to what degree. Karate was far from being Kanō‘s only ressource on atemi."

    One must also be very careful about the mentioning of "The complete Kano-Jiu-Jitsu". Of course we know that Kano himself did not authorize this book and he himself said, that the author likely never learned Kodokan-Judo. But the authors intention clearly is to point out, that there existed Atemi in japanese jujutsu before okinawian karate reached Japan mainland. For example the mentioned Prof. Dr. Miura is known as a student of tenjin-shinyo-ryu - in the same dojo kano practised (!) - and a student of Erwin Bälz and his translator....

    Deshi

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    Re: arcticles about Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata

    Post by Deshi on Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:15 am

    Thank you for your reply!

    wdax wrote:The mentioned timeline in the article is correct. Of course the development of seirykou-zenyo-kokumin-taiiku started earlier then 1930, but the "official" publication with detailed explanations was in 1930. BTW: the article also mentions Kano´s early system of "gido-taiso" (1909) and Kobo-shiki-kokumin-taiiku from 1927 (but I have 1928 in memory).
    Yes, most of Kano's projects such as this kata, were things that evolved over many years, if not decades. Some he never finished. The year 1924 is mentioned on the side judoinfo.com, that's why I was wondering.

    wdax wrote: ... But the authors intention clearly is to point out, that there existed Atemi in japanese jujutsu before okinawian karate reached Japan mainland.
    I am sure most, if not all koryu bugai had atemi waza, but the dubious "Complete Kano-Jiu-Jitsu" is the last source I'd use to verify anything.
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    NBK

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    Re: arcticles about Seiryoku Zen’yo Kokumin Taiiku no Kata

    Post by NBK on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:47 pm

    Deshi wrote:....
    I am sure most, if not all koryu bugai had atemi waza, but the dubious "Complete Kano-Jiu-Jitsu" is the last source I'd use to verify anything.

    There are even remnants of koryu atemi waza in judo kata - tsukkae, the straight strike to the face in the standing portion, is a backfist strike that seems very strange to anyone with boxing training. You can find a similar strike in a number of koryu jujutsu schools.

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