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    World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

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    Jonesy

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    World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:49 pm

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    BillC

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    Re: World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by BillC on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:35 pm

    Not done according to the newly published standard.


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
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    Jonesy

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    Re: World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:59 pm

    This is the issue. The newly published English-language Kodokan kata booklets and the DVDs do not represent the last word in kata standards, certainly not as far as kata competition is concerned.  The standard against which kata are judged in competition is the Kodokan DVD (and now booklets as well) series supplemented by a list of criteria issued by the IJF, which are updated annually.

    I went on a Kata course recently where the IJF Kata Judges present opined that the level of kata performance shown in most of the Kodokan DVDs would not merit the performers top-three placing in the Worlds.

    wdax

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    Re: World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by wdax on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:10 pm

    Jonesy wrote:This is the issue. The newly published English-language Kodokan kata booklets and the DVDs do not represent the last word in kata standards, certainly not as far as kata competition is concerned.  The standard against which kata are judged in competition is the Kodokan DVD (and now booklets as well) series supplemented by a list of criteria issued by the IJF, which are updated annually.

    I went on a Kata course recently where the IJF Kata Judges present opined that the level of kata performance shown in most of the Kodokan DVDs would not merit the performers top-three placing in the Worlds.

    I have not yet looked into the newly published booklet about Kodokan Goshinjutsu in detail. But H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe do it exactly what I remember from last years summer course, what is no surprise, because they demonstrated the kata there. In which technique(s) they are not in line with the booklet?

    The level of the demonstration shown on the kata-DVDs is in most cases pretty far away from international top-performances. None of them would be close to a medal, not at the WC nor at the EC. There are simply to many imperfections, what is understandable, because none of them ever worked on the kata as much as international top-athletes do/did. Reference to the material BTW does not mean, that these videos/DVDs show the "gold standard", but means, that they show the basic line. The IJF-evaluation criteria are also only some examples of points to observe and far from being complete.
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    BillC

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    Re: World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by BillC on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:12 am

    wdax wrote: In which technique(s) they are not in line with the booklet?

    Pretty much from the beginning.

    "Tori immediately extends the fingers of both his hands and stepping back with his left foot diagonally backward to his left."

    This is not what tori does in the YouTube video. It's fundamentally different. In the video the tori steps back first, then is grabbed, then moves straight back while turning to the left.

    But then again ... the PICTURES in the booklet show the same thing as the video.

    Much has been offered in a separate thread about this exercise.

    My conclusion so far, based upon the variety of contradictory instructions offered charitably to me (and for which i am sincerely grateful), is that there is profound internal disagreement about this exercise, and I find this disagreement to be challenging and wonderful!


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    wdax

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    Re: World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by wdax on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:44 pm

    BillC wrote:(...)

    "Tori  immediately extends the fingers of both his hands and stepping back with his left foot diagonally backward to his left."

    This is not what tori does in the YouTube video.  It's fundamentally different.  In the video the tori steps back first, then is grabbed, then moves straight back while turning to the left.


    I watched the video several times, but I see something different. Uke grabs Tori´s wrist when Uke´s left foot is in front and Tori clearly reacts to Uke´s action as required in the booklet.

    But I see something else: Tori already leans back before Uke attacks and doing this he anticipates the attack, what offers him the opportunity to "react" faster. I´m pretty sure, that they are not aware of it, but they should correct this Cool
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    BillC

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    Re: World Judo Kata Championship 2014 Malaga - H. Miyamoto & M. Watanabe

    Post by BillC on Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:36 am

    wdax wrote:
    BillC wrote:(...)

    "Tori  immediately extends the fingers of both his hands and stepping back with his left foot diagonally backward to his left."

    This is not what tori does in the YouTube video.  It's fundamentally different.  In the video the tori steps back first, then is grabbed, then moves straight back while turning to the left.


    I watched the video several times, but I see something different. Uke grabs Tori´s wrist when Uke´s left foot is in front and Tori clearly reacts to Uke´s action as required in the booklet.

    But I see something else: Tori already leans back before Uke attacks and doing this he anticipates the attack, what offers him the opportunity to "react" faster. I´m pretty sure, that they are not aware of it, but they should correct this Cool

    Yes, we are both seeing the same thing ... whatever the word we choose ... maybe we should agree that we both see tori "retreating" before the attack.  But then we'd have to talk about what constitutes an attack ... is it pretty much the game of chicken that one encounters on an your average Chinese sidewalk or is it the hand grab itself?  Then pretty soon we'd be talking about the odd logic of this entire ryotedori movement ... then the value of the goshinjutsu ... whether it's a kata at all ... and this forum has pretty much beat that to death.  Let's maybe skip that.

    Just bridging to the separate thread about manuals and details.  What I am focusing on is the direction of movement tori uses to dodge the kick and to escape the grip.  That is clearly different than the text of the manual.  And I was in fact surprised to see the manual suggest that direction of escape.  My access to teaching may be rather limited, but KDK and otherwise it's always been that wide swing in the counter-clockwise direction.

    Then our club brought a sensei from Waseda University skilled in both judo and aiki, a student of Tomiki Kenji ... in that weekend course in goshinjutsu he taught the retreat diagonally to tori's left rear. Actually mostly to tori's left.   It was a considered difference he explained at length.  The reasons included kuzushi ... and not buying a foot in the huevos.

    Lots of other differences too, but this one caught my eye right away as I scanned the manual.

    And on a Chinese sidewalk I do most often move to the side rather than retreat.  Those old country ladies can throw a mean elbow ... but not if one get's out of the way! Rolling Eyes


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

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