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    looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

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    contrarian

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    looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by contrarian on Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:33 am

    I'm interested in finding out what technique was what number according to that particular teaching method used by some people in France.
    I remember reading about it in the judo forum years ago, but not sure if the details of the system was discussed or not.
    does anyone have any information on it?
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    noboru

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by noboru on Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:39 am

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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:21 am

    contrarian wrote:I'm interested in finding out what technique was what number according to that particular teaching method used by some people in France.
    I remember reading about it in the judo forum years ago, but not sure if the details of the system was discussed or not.
    does anyone have any information on it?

    Kawaishi Method...

    One of my judo teachers came up in that system in France.

    For example, "Number 1 Hip Throw" is O Goshi.

    My understanding is that Kawaishi though that it would be easier for westerners to learn Judo without the Japanese words/jargon.

    He also had a system of what amount to kata for groundwork, like a super-extended and amplified version of the Katame No Kata, based on action reaction.

    It was quite useful in that sense, I've forgotten most of it though.



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    Jacob3

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:17 pm

    The Kawaishi method is often used in Holland aswell. I was raised with it.

    There are posters available, but I could not find one online. I did find a description however, that might be useful:

    1e beenworp = O Soto Gari
    2e beenworp = De Ashi Barai
    3e beenworp = Hiza Guruma
    4e beenworp = Ko Soto Gake
    5e beenworp = O Uchi Gari
    6e beenworp = Ko Uchi Gari
    7e beenworp = Okuri Ashi Barai
    8e beenworp = O Soto Guruma
    9e beenworp = O Soto Otoshi
    10e beenworp = Ko Soto Gari
    11e beenworp = Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi
    12e beenworp = Harai Tsuri Komi Ashi
    13e beenworp = Soto Gake
    14e beenworp = Ko Uchi Maki Komi
    15e beenworp = Ashi Guruma
    1e heupworp = Uki Goshi
    2e heupworp = Kubi Nage
    3e heupworp = Tsuri Goshi
    4e heupworp = Koshi Guruma
    5e heupworp = Harai Goshi
    6e heupworp = Hane Goshi
    7e heupworp = Ushiro Goshi
    8e heupworp = Tsuri Komi Goshi
    9e heupworp = Utsuri Goshi
    10e heupworp = Uchi Mata
    11e heupworp = O Goshi
    12e heupworp = Ko Tsuri Goshi
    13e heupworp = O Guruma
    14e heupworp = Yama Arashi
    15e heupworp = Obi Goshi
    1e armworp = Tai Otoshi
    2e armworp = Uki Otoshi
    3e armworp = Hiji Otoshi
    4e armworp = Sukui Nage
    5e armworp = Mochiage Otoshi
    6e armworp = Sumi Otoshi
    7e armworp = Obi Otoshi
    8e armworp = Kata Ashi Dori
    9e armworp = Ryo Ashi Dori
    1e schouderworp = Ippon Seoi Nage
    2e schouderworp = Morote Seoi Nage
    3e schouderworp = Kata Guruma
    4e schouderworp = Seoi Otoshi
    5e schouderworp = Hidari Seoi Nage
    6e schouderworp = Seoi Age
    1e sutemi = Tomoe Nage
    2e sutemi = Yoko Tomoe (Nage)
    3e sutemi = Maki Tomoe
    4e sutemi = Maki Komi
    5e sutemi = Yoko Gake
    6e sutemi = Tani Otoshi
    7e sutemi = Sumi Gaeshi
    8e sutemi = Uki Waza
    9e sutemi = Kani Basami
    10e sutemi = Yoko Otoshi
    11e sutemi = Hane Maki Komi
    12e sutemi = Ura Nage
    13e sutemi = Yoko Guruma
    14e sutemi = Yoko Wakare
    15e sutemi = Taware Gaeshi

    Translation:
    Beenworp = legthrow = ashi waza
    Heupworp = hipthrow = koshi waza
    Armworp = armthrow = te waza
    Schouderworp = shoulderthrow = in fact also te waza
    Sutemi will be clear
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    Jihef

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jihef on Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:20 pm

    Jacob3 wrote:The Kawaishi method is often used in Holland aswell. I was raised with it.
    I didn't realized you were THAT old, Jacob ! Wink

    It was the Kawaishi students, therefore following his method, that first popularized judo in Belgium, as well.
    Most “Sensei” in Belgium grew up with this system. That is how the founder of our Club, and my own teacher, first learned judo.

    A few (rare) old heads still refer to waza that way… The Kodokan classification got popular later on in Europe, notably with Ichiro Abe.


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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:57 pm

    I am ancient Smile Just got over my midlifecrisis Laughing

    The Kawaishi system is still quite popular in this region. At many clubs ( ours f.e. ) it is still taught that way.

    for me, it has proven to be a big handicap, since I do not have a very good memory. I know all the numbers ( except for the armthrows, of which most we do not really practice in the system ), but even after 30 years behind my belt, I still do not know all the japanese names by memory.....

    In fact, posting this list, I saw several names that were not even familiar. I had to look them up online, and recognised them all. But not by name...



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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:14 am

    I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



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    Jacob3

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:08 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.

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    contrarian

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by contrarian on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:59 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.


    you, sir, are awesome.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:19 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.


    Right, and the positions are what I can't remember all of, or even most of.

    The techniques were arranged in sequences based on action-reaction, and there were different series, like Series 1, 2, 3, etc

    For example, pin uke with Hon Kesa Gatame. Uke attempts to escape by pulling out his arm, do Kesa Garami.

    There were 2-3 (I think) series of standing armbars and chokes as well, chokes/armbars from "guard", etc.

    The whole judo by numbers thing isn't really useful, or any more useful than learning Japanese and/or English (or whatever language) names.

    The action-reaction sequences and positions were useful, though.


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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:53 pm

    contrarian wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.


    you, sir, are awesome.

    well ty, but so far I have only posted links to other people's efforts. So the credit is really theirs
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    contrarian

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by contrarian on Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:43 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    well ty, but so far I have only posted links to other people's efforts. So the credit is really theirs

    you are here and they are not, so you are my personal saviour. thank you.

    so, in dutch, 'worp' is throw? can it be used as a verb?
    at next practice, can i say 'i worp'd your butt'?
    that would sound awesome.
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    Jacob3

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:20 am

    contrarian wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    well ty, but so far I have only posted links to other people's efforts. So the credit is really theirs

    you are here and they are not, so you are my personal saviour. thank you.

    so, in dutch, 'worp' is throw? can it be used as a verb?
    at next practice, can i say 'i worp'd your butt'?
    that would sound awesome.

    'Worp' is Throw indeed.
    The verb is 'werpen'
    The Dutch language is not quite as easy to use as english, so your sentence would become something like:
    'Ik heb je op je gat geworpen' = I have thrown you on your butt
    I cant think of any combination of those two sentences though.

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    forgeron judo

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    kawaishi books

    Post by forgeron judo on Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:53 am

    You have to remember that when Kawaishi arrived in France he joined the Elite club of physicians and university thinker. In those day, the french clutural aspects were very predominant. He wanted to mesh with the current customs and methods, others previous to him had tried to implement some form of ju jutsu and judo but had failed to make a decisive enry into the french culture.. He therefore adapted his method to the Européens and french in particular.
    He wanted to istall his original teaching within the french method and diffused his teaching from his Paris base of dojo. Assisted by one of his student Jean Gailhat, he produced several books as the technical director of the Fench judo federation and associated disciplines, until the start of the World war. he had produced:

    Ma methode of judo where numbers and names are listd and illustrated,
    Ma methode de self-defense with again numbers and illustrations,
    Les katas complets de judo
    Les enchainements et les contreprises with photo, numbers and names (with Henri Courtine as uke)

    Most of those books where published by Publi-judo of the Le Plessis-Robinson (Seine) publication house in Paris.)
    Hope you can still find some old copies still availabale. Mine are kept inn my librairy like someone else keep their diamondsin their vault...
    Always a good reference point.
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    contrarian

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by contrarian on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:33 am

    forgeron judo wrote:You have to remember that when Kawaishi arrived in France he joined the Elite club of physicians and university thinker. In those day, the french clutural aspects were very predominant. He wanted to mesh with the current customs and methods, others previous to him had tried to implement some form of ju jutsu and judo but had failed to make a decisive enry into the french culture.. He therefore adapted his method to the Européens and french in particular.
    He wanted to istall his original teaching within the french method and diffused his teaching from his Paris base of dojo. Assisted by one of his student Jean Gailhat, he produced several books as the technical director of the Fench judo federation and associated disciplines, until the start of the World war. he had produced:

    Ma methode of judo where numbers and names are listd and illustrated,
    Ma methode de self-defense with again numbers and illustrations,
    Les katas complets de judo
    Les enchainements et les contreprises   with photo, numbers and names (with Henri Courtine as uke)

    Most of those books where published by Publi-judo of the Le Plessis-Robinson (Seine) publication house in Paris.)
    Hope you can still find some old copies still availabale. Mine are kept inn my librairy like someone else keep their diamondsin their vault...
    Always a good reference point.

    thank you! i will look into buying them for my daughter who speaks french!
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    Jacob3

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:08 pm

    forgeron judo wrote:You have to remember that when Kawaishi arrived in France he joined the Elite club of physicians and university thinker. In those day, the french clutural aspects were very predominant. He wanted to mesh with the current customs and methods, others previous to him had tried to implement some form of ju jutsu and judo but had failed to make a decisive enry into the french culture.. He therefore adapted his method to the Européens and french in particular.
    He wanted to istall his original teaching within the french method and diffused his teaching from his Paris base of dojo. Assisted by one of his student Jean Gailhat, he produced several books as the technical director of the Fench judo federation and associated disciplines, until the start of the World war. he had produced:

    Ma methode of judo where numbers and names are listd and illustrated,
    Ma methode de self-defense with again numbers and illustrations,
    Les katas complets de judo
    Les enchainements et les contreprises   with photo, numbers and names (with Henri Courtine as uke)

    Most of those books where published by Publi-judo of the Le Plessis-Robinson (Seine) publication house in Paris.)
    Hope you can still find some old copies still availabale. Mine are kept inn my librairy like someone else keep their diamondsin their vault...
    Always a good reference point.

    When I said that I am not much in favor of his system, I did not mean to say that it is/was useless now, nor back then. It has some serious flaws, aswell in the system as in the techniques. However that is understandable. But he DID accomplish a serious boost in Judo over here, because of his system. Since it is still quite commonly used these days, it is still usefull. However I would prefer that by now we would all use the Japanese terms. That would take a lot of studying though.

    I have an english translation of his book 'the seven kata of Judo'. And I love to have old books to see the development, but tbh I do not regard it a serious reference point.
    But in your other books, is there anything in there about these newaza series?

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    Jacob3

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jacob3 on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:32 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.


    Right, and the positions are what I can't remember all of, or even most of.

    The techniques were arranged in sequences based on action-reaction, and there were different series, like Series 1, 2, 3, etc

    For example, pin uke with Hon Kesa Gatame. Uke attempts to escape by pulling out his arm, do Kesa Garami.

    There were 2-3 (I think) series of standing armbars and chokes as well, chokes/armbars from "guard", etc.

    The whole judo by numbers thing isn't really useful, or any more useful than learning Japanese and/or English (or whatever language) names.

    The action-reaction sequences and positions were useful, though.

    I got the mentioned book last night. There are some pictures in there, but none about any sequences.
    Hopefully Forgeron can produce those.
    If they are not, I wonder if these series were ever made official. I have never really heard of them.

    However, at my club we do practice many newaza techniques in certain series. The one you mention is amongst them.
    We have done so as long as I can remember. Possibly they are based on Kawaishi's system, but I cannot be sure of that. The only one who could tell me that is my old Judo teacher. He is 92 though, suffers from dementia and is unable to communicate anymore.
    But since you might recognise them, you might want to take a look at this clip. Starting from 4 min, there are several sequences of techniques. This clip is not completely based on these series since it is just meant for our students to remember what they have learned in class. Therefore we just grabbed the first one that was early for class, for several weeks, and shook some techniques out of our sleeves. I do see several (parts) of the series in there, so perhaps you recognise something.



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    Jihef

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Jihef on Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:44 pm

    Jacob3 wrote:However, at my club we do practice many newaza techniques in certain series. The one you mention is amongst them.
    We have done so as long as I can remember. Possibly they are based on Kawaishi's system, but I cannot be sure of that. The only one who could tell me that is my old Judo teacher. He is 92 though, suffers from dementia and is unable to communicate anymore.
    Hi,
    I have no time to check the videos right now, but in France there is this series :
    11 immobisations avec dégagements et enchaînements.



    That is taught by Shozo AWAZU sensei, longtime associate of Kawaishi sensei, could it be what you are looking for ?

    Cheers,
    J-F.


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    forgeron judo

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    kawaishi tradition

    Post by forgeron judo on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:48 pm

    As mentionned, Kawaishi came from Wasada and trained in Kyoto at the Budokai before spending some time at the Kodokan, He was also influence by sensei Koizumi of London who also came from the Kyoto academy. His présentations of techniques by numbers, illustrations and japaneese names were cconstant. He frequently made cross references when possible and during exam periods, he requested thqt the students understood the meaning of the classification system he used. Of course, you will find several techniques outside the thinking of the Kodokan and that was ok at the time since Kawaishi mixed his jujitsu background to complete his teaching. As canadian students, we the students had Sensei Kawaishi as technical director and  we had to perform both ju jitsu and judo during the exam periods.

    Upon his return from the exile during the last war, things had changed in France, the new governing body called the College had reorganized and endorsed the Abe approach of the Kodokan as a more dynamic and more suitable. Alain Valin was tasked to review the pedagogical approach and the summary of changes were published in an in-house cahier technique giving the rationale and the new syllabus which is still in vogue but the publication has been redone into volume 1 to 5 by George Baudot, Guy Pelletier and Claude Urvoy with the title judo juperieur, published by the maison du judoka Asniere France. (it shows all the progression.
    Valain also produced an excellent exposé called  Maitrise et Puissance par le  JUDO  au Sol,edition Oliven Paris.

    Hope you find what you are looking for, if more needed, look up my earlier books and articles at the www.scribd.com and my identity is Forgeron or Ronald Desormeaux and most of my work that can be freely download.

    As for the chart, I will try to photograph one of my copy and post it later on.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:22 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.


    Right, and the positions are what I can't remember all of, or even most of.

    The techniques were arranged in sequences based on action-reaction, and there were different series, like Series 1, 2, 3, etc

    For example, pin uke with Hon Kesa Gatame. Uke attempts to escape by pulling out his arm, do Kesa Garami.

    There were 2-3 (I think) series of standing armbars and chokes as well, chokes/armbars from "guard", etc.

    The whole judo by numbers thing isn't really useful, or any more useful than learning Japanese and/or English (or whatever language) names.

    The action-reaction sequences and positions were useful, though.

    I got the mentioned book last night. There are some pictures in there, but none about any sequences.
    Hopefully Forgeron can produce those.
    If they are not, I wonder if these series were ever made official. I have never really heard of them.

    However, at my club we do practice many newaza techniques in certain series. The one you mention is amongst them.
    We have done so as long as I can remember. Possibly they are based on Kawaishi's system, but I cannot be sure of that. The only one who could tell me that is my old Judo teacher. He is 92 though, suffers from dementia and is unable to communicate anymore.
    But since you might recognise them, you might want to take a look at this clip. Starting from 4 min, there are several sequences of techniques. This clip is not completely based on these series since it is just meant for our students to remember what they have learned in class. Therefore we just grabbed the first one that was early for class, for several weeks, and shook some techniques out of our sleeves. I do see several (parts) of the series in there, so perhaps you recognise something.




    Thanks for the video. The "katame waza" series that I had learned were definitely part of an organized system. My former (no deceased, RIP) instructor learned them as part of his judo training in France. No way were they some sort of informal patterns. They were integrated into promotion standards, with certain sequences for each grade/rank.

    I don' t think the whole system is some sort of wonderful way to learn Judo, but it was helpful, and I did get better at in particular arm-bars and how to transition from osaekomi to kansetsu waza. It's always easier to remember techniques if presented and trained in some reasonably "logical" or at least organized manner. One of the pedagogical flaws in the katame/ne waza system of Judo is the fact that there are critical things that have not name or really official recognition. But considering that the complex ne waza we see in Judo today didn't really originate with Jigoro Kano, it makes sense. Even the tachi waza is missing formalized names for example in kumi kata methods/sequences, etc.





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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:27 am

    Jihef wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:However, at my club we do practice many newaza techniques in certain series. The one you mention is amongst them.
    We have done so as long as I can remember. Possibly they are based on Kawaishi's system, but I cannot be sure of that. The only one who could tell me that is my old Judo teacher. He is 92 though, suffers from dementia and is unable to communicate anymore.
    Hi,
    I have no time to check the videos right now, but in France there is this series :
    11 immobisations avec dégagements et enchaînements.



    That is taught by Shozo AWAZU sensei, longtime associate of Kawaishi sensei, could it be what you are looking for ?

    Cheers,
    J-F.

    Thanks, but not, that's not it. Bits and pieces, yeah, but not the same thing.


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:48 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:I have some old handouts I was given. I already knew all the throws when I started doing Judo with the teacher who used the Kawaishi system (I was already a black belt). He also knew all the Japanese too.

    Does anyone have any info on the katame waza sequences ? My handouts don't have that in them. They were basically informal kata.



    http://www.lukigoshi.nl/Kawaishi.htm

    These are all the techniques. However they are also from certain positions. I could not find any versions with pictures online.
    I spoke with my partner about this yesterday, and he says he has an old book with all techniques in them. He will bring it along this weekend. Hopefully I can make some copies from it.


    Right, and the positions are what I can't remember all of, or even most of.

    The techniques were arranged in sequences based on action-reaction, and there were different series, like Series 1, 2, 3, etc

    For example, pin uke with Hon Kesa Gatame. Uke attempts to escape by pulling out his arm, do Kesa Garami.

    There were 2-3 (I think) series of standing armbars and chokes as well, chokes/armbars from "guard", etc.

    The whole judo by numbers thing isn't really useful, or any more useful than learning Japanese and/or English (or whatever language) names.

    The action-reaction sequences and positions were useful, though.

    I got the mentioned book last night. There are some pictures in there, but none about any sequences.
    Hopefully Forgeron can produce those.
    If they are not, I wonder if these series were ever made official. I have never really heard of them.

    However, at my club we do practice many newaza techniques in certain series. The one you mention is amongst them.
    We have done so as long as I can remember. Possibly they are based on Kawaishi's system, but I cannot be sure of that. The only one who could tell me that is my old Judo teacher. He is 92 though, suffers from dementia and is unable to communicate anymore.
    But since you might recognise them, you might want to take a look at this clip. Starting from 4 min, there are several sequences of techniques. This clip is not completely based on these series since it is just meant for our students to remember what they have learned in class. Therefore we just grabbed the first one that was early for class, for several weeks, and shook some techniques out of our sleeves. I do see several (parts) of the series in there, so perhaps you recognise something.




    Watched the video, some of it is familiar, but didn't see the sequences I learned.


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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:50 am

    forgeron judo wrote:As mentionned, Kawaishi came from Wasada and trained in Kyoto at the Budokai before spending some time at the Kodokan, He was also influence by sensei Koizumi of London who also came from the Kyoto academy. His présentations of techniques by numbers, illustrations and japaneese names were cconstant. He frequently made cross references when possible and during exam periods, he requested thqt the students understood the meaning of the classification system he used. Of course, you will find several techniques outside the thinking of the Kodokan and that was ok at the time since Kawaishi mixed his jujitsu background to complete his teaching. As canadian students, we the students had Sensei Kawaishi as technical director and  we had to perform both ju jitsu and judo during the exam periods.

    Upon his return from the exile during the last war, things had changed in France, the new governing body called the College had reorganized and endorsed the Abe approach of the Kodokan as a more dynamic and more suitable. Alain Valin was tasked to review the pedagogical approach and the summary of changes were published in an in-house cahier technique giving the rationale and the new syllabus which is still in vogue but the publication has been redone into volume 1 to 5 by George Baudot, Guy Pelletier and Claude Urvoy with the title judo juperieur, published by the maison du judoka Asniere France. (it shows all the progression.
    Valain also produced an excellent exposé called  Maitrise et Puissance par le  JUDO  au Sol,edition Oliven Paris.

    Hope you find what you are looking for, if more needed, look up my earlier books and articles at the www.scribd.com and my identity is Forgeron or Ronald Desormeaux and most of my work that can be freely download.

    As for the chart, I will try to photograph one of my copy and post it later on.

    Thanks very much for the references !


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:01 am

    forgeron judo wrote:As mentionned, Kawaishi came from Wasada and trained in Kyoto at the Budokai before spending some time at the Kodokan, He was also influence by sensei Koizumi of London who also came from the Kyoto academy. His présentations of techniques by numbers, illustrations and japaneese names were cconstant. He frequently made cross references when possible and during exam periods, he requested thqt the students understood the meaning of the classification system he used. Of course, you will find several techniques outside the thinking of the Kodokan and that was ok at the time since Kawaishi mixed his jujitsu background to complete his teaching. As canadian students, we the students had Sensei Kawaishi as technical director and  we had to perform both ju jitsu and judo during the exam periods.

    Upon his return from the exile during the last war, things had changed in France, the new governing body called the College had reorganized and endorsed the Abe approach of the Kodokan as a more dynamic and more suitable. Alain Valin was tasked to review the pedagogical approach and the summary of changes were published in an in-house cahier technique giving the rationale and the new syllabus which is still in vogue but the publication has been redone into volume 1 to 5 by George Baudot, Guy Pelletier and Claude Urvoy with the title judo juperieur, published by the maison du judoka Asniere France. (it shows all the progression.
    Valain also produced an excellent exposé called  Maitrise et Puissance par le  JUDO  au Sol,edition Oliven Paris.

    Hope you find what you are looking for, if more needed, look up my earlier books and articles at the www.scribd.com and my identity is Forgeron or Ronald Desormeaux and most of my work that can be freely download.

    As for the chart, I will try to photograph one of my copy and post it later on.

    I can't seem to find anything by you on scribd...


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    johan smits

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    Re: looking for info on French Judo system of using numbers instead of technique name

    Post by johan smits on Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:06 am

    Just to stick my nose in a discussion where it does not belong.
    In my opinion Kawaishi's influence on early judo in Europe was immense. It is fair to say that he, probably more than anyone else, was the father of European judo.

    The numbers for techniques is one difference, there were more in his system of teaching.

    It was a very balanced, technical style of judo.

    Happy landings.

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