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    classicschmosby

    Posts : 20
    Join date : 2014-03-12

    Ukemi progression

    Post by classicschmosby on Fri May 15, 2015 8:53 am

    Could anyone recommend a progression for ukemi please? This includes ukemi from throws as well as solo techniques.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri May 15, 2015 9:22 am

    classicschmosby wrote:Could anyone recommend a progression for ukemi please? This includes ukemi from throws as well as solo techniques.

    Are you a qualified judo teacher ? I'm assuming you mean ukemi progression for Judo...

    What age or age range of student are involved ?


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    classicschmosby

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    Join date : 2014-03-12

    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by classicschmosby on Fri May 15, 2015 9:39 am

    I am a 1st kyu unofficial assistant instructor who is waiting for the opportunity to gain the initial teaching qualification in the uk. And yes for judo.

    Primary age ranges are 8-14 and 14+
    A progression for 4-8 year olds would be appreciated as well, but they are restricted to less forceful throws due to age and experience so that is not as necessary.

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri May 15, 2015 10:06 am

    classicschmosby wrote:I am a 1st kyu unofficial assistant instructor who is waiting for the opportunity to gain the initial teaching qualification in the uk. And yes for judo.

    Primary age ranges are 8-14 and 14+
    A progression for 4-8 year olds would be appreciated as well, but they are restricted to less forceful throws due to age and experience so that is not as necessary.

    Does your judo association/organization have coaching/teaching materials with teaching progressions already ? Most coach/teaching programs will have those in them of one sort or another.

    4-8 year olds is a huge span...IMO 4 year old children shouldn't be doing judo, certainly not any throwing. 8-14 is a huge range as well, and 14+ encompasses older adults. So you are asking for a LOT of "progressions" and methodology, a lot of which is situational/contextual.

    You need proper instruction from qualified teachers.

    I suggest your consult with YOUR coach/sensei/teacher for advice, if you have not done so already.

    I will say that I think zempo kaiten is overemphasized in many cases



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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Sun May 31, 2015 3:40 am

    classicschmosby wrote:Could anyone recommend a progression for ukemi please? This includes ukemi from throws as well as solo techniques.

    I quite like this

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?29567-DVD-Review-of-%96-quot-UKEMI-%96-From-The-Ground-Up-quot-%28Ellis-Amdur%29

    good ideas here too

    [YT]NFPPrhxPFR4[/YT]

    http://youtu.be/NFPPrhxPFR4

    judoclimber

    Posts : 23
    Join date : 2013-02-16

    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by judoclimber on Sun May 31, 2015 9:32 pm

    all the ukemi -- you start out with minimal impact, rollling ... then you progress to adding airtime for a bigger slam. I certainly don't worry about that last bit all the time, or with all students. But, it's nice to have a harder level to take it to, if needed.

    1. rearwards ukemi, you start out flat slapping your arms, then from the bottom of the squat, then from standing ... squat down and kick your feet forward into the air -- you get a foot or so of airtime drop. It stings, until you get the knack of slapping with your arms a millisecond before your back strikes the mat.

    2. side ukemi: i see this as one of the harder ones for beginners to master. They often topple over sideways as if a tree being chopped from the bottom. Too big a fall, and they get hurt or prop up on an elbow. Instead, I get them to simply cross one foot over in front of the over, then sit down into a cross-legged position. Then roll to one side, and slap, with legs extended.

    Slowly speed this up, and voila! a side breakfall will appear. Then, as above, you start a bit squatted, and kick your legs out to the side to get airtime, and you get more impact.

    3. front breakfall, you start out on your knees with a stiff torso, then progress to a deep splits stance, to normal stance slightly bent knees, then to 'donkey-kick' backwards to get your airtime.

    4. zenpo-kaiten ukemi. This one can be the most problematic i find, for the people who insist on doing barrell-rolls to the side. There are numerous approaches to fixing that problem ... but i can't say any of them work like magic :-( If a person can't do a nice forward roll, then it's just going to take awhile and a lot of effort. I would say that starting with the version where you _don't_ come to your feet, is the place to begin.

    BillC

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by BillC on Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:14 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I will say that I think zempo kaiten is overemphasized in many cases


    Important skill but ... yes, probably too much emphasis ... which is to say wasting time on zempo kaiten when there are other things to learn besides. Remember the old "you have to learn your falls first ...?" That said, I think it says a lot about a dojo ... kinda like table manners tell a lot about the home a child grows up in ... yes, I have noticed a correlation.

    BUT ... unless I was not ready carefully, everyone has missed one particular training method ... that is ... being THROWN in a controlled situation, with careful supervision, with an appropriate waza, on an appropriate surface.


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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:32 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I will say that I think zempo kaiten is overemphasized in many cases


    Important skill but ... yes, probably too much emphasis ... which is to say wasting time on zempo kaiten when there are other things to learn besides.  Remember the old "you have to learn your falls first ...?"  That said, I think it says a lot about a dojo ... kinda like table manners tell a lot about the home a child grows up in ... yes, I have noticed a correlation.

    BUT ... unless I was not ready carefully, everyone has missed one particular training method ... that is ... being THROWN in a controlled situation, with careful supervision, with an appropriate waza, on an appropriate surface.

    The video I cited in part shows that Smile

    (Why can't we embed YT videos anymore?)

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:53 am

    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I will say that I think zempo kaiten is overemphasized in many cases


    Important skill but ... yes, probably too much emphasis ... which is to say wasting time on zempo kaiten when there are other things to learn besides.  Remember the old "you have to learn your falls first ...?"  That said, I think it says a lot about a dojo ... kinda like table manners tell a lot about the home a child grows up in ... yes, I have noticed a correlation.

    BUT ... unless I was not ready carefully, everyone has missed one particular training method ... that is ... being THROWN in a controlled situation, with careful supervision, with an appropriate waza, on an appropriate surface.

    Of course it's an important skill, but I don't think it's as necessary as the the amount of time I often see spent on it, especially for little kids, early on in training.

    I've found that back and side falls, then progressive falling drills (from knees, from one knee, etc.) to being thrown as you describe works pretty well. Uke and tori can work well with the former, as tori needs to learn control and balance for throwing, and uke needs to learn to do the fall.

    Combining falling practice with throwing or throwing-like skills can get to the best of both worlds quickly and relatively safely. Adding in a few words about Jita Kyoei puts it together with the ethos of the whole thing.

    That's a lot more interesting than the month + of 3x/week judo (2 hours per class) of ukemi I did before I got to touch another person...

    I agree about the table manners/ukemi thing... I in fact tell my students the same thing as encouragement to keep getting better at ukemi.

    Zempo kaiten ukemi IS useful for a lot of stuff in Judo, from side fall position/landings to full-on follow-through in competition, falls from sutemi waza, and probably even more so for falling outside the dojo.

    It's sure saved my bacon many, many times from falling off bikes (motor or pedal), down stairs, etc.



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    icb

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by icb on Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:29 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I will say that I think zempo kaiten is overemphasized in many cases


    Important skill but ... yes, probably too much emphasis ... which is to say wasting time on zempo kaiten when there are other things to learn besides.  Remember the old "you have to learn your falls first ...?"  That said, I think it says a lot about a dojo ... kinda like table manners tell a lot about the home a child grows up in ... yes, I have noticed a correlation.

    BUT ... unless I was not ready carefully, everyone has missed one particular training method ... that is ... being THROWN in a controlled situation, with careful supervision, with an appropriate waza, on an appropriate surface.

    Of course it's an important skill, but I don't think it's as necessary as the the amount of time I often see spent on it, especially for little kids, early on in training.

    I've found that back and side falls, then progressive falling drills (from knees, from one knee, etc.) to being thrown as you describe works pretty well. Uke and tori can work well with the former, as tori needs to learn control and balance for throwing, and uke needs to learn to do the fall.

    Combining falling practice with throwing or throwing-like skills can get to the best of both worlds quickly and relatively safely. Adding in a few words about Jita Kyoei puts it together with the ethos of the whole thing.

    That's a lot more interesting than the month + of 3x/week judo (2 hours per class)  of ukemi I did before I got to touch another person...

    I agree about the table manners/ukemi thing... I in fact tell my students the same thing as encouragement to keep getting better at ukemi.

    Zempo kaiten ukemi IS useful for a lot of stuff in Judo, from side fall position/landings to full-on follow-through in competition, falls from sutemi waza, and probably even more so for falling outside the dojo.

    It's sure saved my bacon many, many times from falling off bikes (motor or pedal), down stairs, etc.


    Two arguments for starting students fairly early on learning zempo kaiten ukemi are: 1) that it can take them a long time to overcome their fear of this ukemi, and 2) it is easy to get into bad habits with this type of ukemi (often compounded by the fear element).

    So I tend to teach them early but not obsess about how well students are doing them until they get to the yellow & orange belt level. At that stage it is typically a good point to start breaking them of any bad habits and push them to develop more competence (e.g., ukemi over a couple of horses). I think that it is reasonable to expect green belts to be doing zempo kaiten competently at this level.


    Jihef

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Jihef on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:33 pm

    BillC wrote:everyone has missed one particular training method ... that is ... being THROWN in a controlled situation, with careful supervision, with an appropriate waza, on an appropriate surface.
    Yes, by a considerate -and competent- partner. thumbup1


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Ukemi progression

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:20 am

    icb wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    BillC wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    I will say that I think zempo kaiten is overemphasized in many cases


    Important skill but ... yes, probably too much emphasis ... which is to say wasting time on zempo kaiten when there are other things to learn besides.  Remember the old "you have to learn your falls first ...?"  That said, I think it says a lot about a dojo ... kinda like table manners tell a lot about the home a child grows up in ... yes, I have noticed a correlation.

    BUT ... unless I was not ready carefully, everyone has missed one particular training method ... that is ... being THROWN in a controlled situation, with careful supervision, with an appropriate waza, on an appropriate surface.

    Of course it's an important skill, but I don't think it's as necessary as the the amount of time I often see spent on it, especially for little kids, early on in training.

    I've found that back and side falls, then progressive falling drills (from knees, from one knee, etc.) to being thrown as you describe works pretty well. Uke and tori can work well with the former, as tori needs to learn control and balance for throwing, and uke needs to learn to do the fall.

    Combining falling practice with throwing or throwing-like skills can get to the best of both worlds quickly and relatively safely. Adding in a few words about Jita Kyoei puts it together with the ethos of the whole thing.

    That's a lot more interesting than the month + of 3x/week judo (2 hours per class)  of ukemi I did before I got to touch another person...

    I agree about the table manners/ukemi thing... I in fact tell my students the same thing as encouragement to keep getting better at ukemi.

    Zempo kaiten ukemi IS useful for a lot of stuff in Judo, from side fall position/landings to full-on follow-through in competition, falls from sutemi waza, and probably even more so for falling outside the dojo.

    It's sure saved my bacon many, many times from falling off bikes (motor or pedal), down stairs, etc.


    Two arguments for starting students fairly early on learning zempo kaiten ukemi are: 1) that it can take them a long time to overcome their fear of this ukemi, and 2) it is easy to get into bad habits with this type of ukemi (often compounded by the fear element).

    So I tend to teach them early but not obsess about how well students are doing them until they get to the yellow & orange belt level.  At that stage it is typically a good point to start breaking them of any bad habits and push them to develop more competence (e.g., ukemi over a couple of horses).  I think that it is reasonable to expect green belts to be doing zempo kaiten competently at this level.


    I think that's reasonable, and basically how I approach it.

    By students, what age range are you writing about ? Because IME expectations have to be adjusted more for age rather than belt color.

    Of course, a 7 year old green belt should not be something that happens in reality...


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