E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Share
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by BillC on Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:39 pm

    Leaving the topic of what is dangerous, discussion of banning, etc.

    In a positive direction ... what techniques have teachers come to believe are safe starting waza?

    I'll start.

    I teach teens and adults. Generally, I do not require a tremendous amount of ukemi before throwing and being thrown commence. Generally, if a student has at least some experience in wrestling or BJJ for example, that will be in the first practice ... under my individual direction.

    For learning falls to the side, I often have students "throw" each other with deashi harai. I use the parentheses because the uke are instructed to take the perfect fall as if they were perfectly thrown. The requirement to hold on to tori seems to interrupt the tendency to reach for the floor and soon students take this very easy fall with confidence.

    Kouchi gari done by reaping uke's advance foot is similar, though the "slip on a banana peel" feeling is difficult for beginners to overcome, so they usually anticipate and mess up tori. And of course this is not the "drive under the chin and plant uke on the back of his head" type of kouchi gari.

    Ouchi gari SHOULD be a very easy fall, but again the "freak out factor" and the tendency for tori to lose his/her balance and plant his/her knee in uke's crotch to avoid falling flat onto uke. Not ideal. I teach it alone and in combination with kouchi gari with uke's shoulder leaning back against the wall.

    Ogoshi with a rodeo ending from tori. Good basic forward throw with lots of control possible.

    Ippon seoi nage into a crash pad with proper positioning relative to the pad. Hard throw, hard fall, but good for teaching students to take such a fall with control, and to give the throw with control. I find that other activities teach what amounts to an arm drag ... dangerous ... best to start UN-learning that one early.

    What else do y'all use early in the throwing experience?



    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    Fritz

    Posts : 107
    Join date : 2013-01-16

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Fritz on Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:10 am

    We use as first throws:
    De-Ashi-Barai,
    O- and Uki-Goshi

    Crash mat i would not use in teaching beginners, they should only throw which they can fall also... ;-)


    _________________
    Best regards

    _Fritz_
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 585
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    how begin attack

    Post by noboru on Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:30 pm

    I think that any else good and strong ashi waza is good way how begin attack.

    Generally Kouchi gari, Kosoto gari/gake, Sasae tsurikomi ashi, Hiza guruma (to smaller opponent) are good techniques for destroying opponnents posture. Good work of kumikata opens possibilities for attack too...

    For beginners - I try to teach open attack with the Sasae tsurikomi ashi or Kosoto gake and Kouchi gari to opponents static foot (not in moving) with strong work of hands.

    idealab

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-04-01

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by idealab on Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:35 pm

    We start with ura-nage, te-guruma, and Khabarelli on occasions. It's a great incentive to learn how to fall correctly, but oddly we also have a very high drop out rate. :-P

    Kidding aside, we start with ippon seio-nage, osoto-gari. sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi, and o-uchi-gari for the first month before moving on to other techniques. This way they can learn some big techniques that teach important judo principles and have combinations too.

    One big point I try to emphasize is that the uke to learn proper reaction and posture as a uke to make the technique easier on both the tori and uke. A lot of beginners tend to place their weight backward when working as uke, which makes both uchi-komi and nage-komi awkward for the tori and the fall is harder too.
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by BillC on Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:13 am

    idealab wrote:We start with ura-nage, te-guruma, and Khabarelli on occasions. It's a great incentive to learn how to fall correctly, but oddly we also have a very high drop out rate. :-P

    Kidding aside, we start with ippon seio-nage, osoto-gari. sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi, and o-uchi-gari for the first month before moving on to other techniques. This way they can learn some big techniques that teach important judo principles and have combinations too.

    One big point I try to emphasize is that the uke to learn proper reaction and posture as a uke to make the technique easier on both the tori and uke. A lot of beginners tend to place their weight backward when working as uke, which makes both uchi-komi and nage-komi awkward for the tori and the fall is harder too.

    Thanks for responding. On that last point ... do you teach techniques static ... i.e. with uke standing still and tori attacking ... or do you teach these with uke moving in different directions?

    I find the choice of sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi to be a curious choice as it is quite difficult ... is it a successful lesson, or is it there to stumble uke for osotogari?

    Also ... no koshi waza at all?

    Finally ... I forgot to ask in my original post ... what is your mat surface and what is underneath?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by BillC on Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:26 am

    noboru wrote:I think that any else good and strong ashi waza is good way how begin attack.

    Generally Kouchi gari, Kosoto gari/gake, Sasae tsurikomi ashi, Hiza guruma (to smaller opponent) are good techniques for destroying opponnents posture. Good work of kumikata opens possibilities for attack too...

    For beginners - I try to teach open attack with the Sasae tsurikomi ashi or Kosoto gake and Kouchi gari to opponents static foot (not in moving) with strong work of hands.

    Again ... no criticism but an honest question ... how often with beginners does your sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi practice lead to a fully completed technique? Or is it simply an entry attack to set up additional techniques? Reading your post, you must be teaching with uke stepping back and forth?

    And what is your mat surface?

    The reason I ask those questions in combination is that once a beginner uke understands what is supposed to happen, having been thrown once or twice, he or she will most often subconsciously either help or hinder tori. The choice of sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi seems to require the correct reaction and the correct timing of uke as well as tori ... something like ogoshi not so much. And done correctly, it is kind of a scary fall for a beginner. How long is your learning curve on this?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling

    idealab

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-04-01

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by idealab on Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:57 am

    BillC wrote:
    Thanks for responding.  On that last point ... do you teach techniques static ... i.e. with uke standing still and tori attacking ... or do you teach these with uke moving in different directions?

    I find the choice of sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi to be a curious choice as it is quite difficult ... is it a successful lesson, or is it there to stumble uke for osotogari?

    Also ... no koshi waza at all?

    Finally ... I forgot to ask in my original post ... what is your mat surface and what is underneath?

    Over the years, I found it is much easier for a beginner to learn just about every judo technique when they are executed in an opposite grip situation (kenka-yotsu). It makes the pulling much easier for learning ippon seio- nage, sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi, etc. My students end up doing better techniques (more effective and more graceful) than many students from other schools in much shorter time.

    I teach koshi guruma as the first koshi waza, I forgot to mention, but it is usually toward the end of the first month and beginning of the second month. This is because koshi guruma, when done properly, is easier to execute than o-goshi for most students - it also allows a cleaner, more precise, and faster uchi-komi drills than your typical o-goshi. In addition, koshi-guruma, done from the lapel grip, is very similar to ippon seio-nage in its entry so all the students can learn it very quickly and remember it.

    Actually, I found that it is quite easy to teach sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi, because almost all beginners tend to push a lot. Naturally when you do this technique by pulling on the lapel as the kuzushi hand, and step deep aside toward a pushing uke, the uke automatically rotate over. It is also a very simple example that demonstrate judo's principle that everyone picks up very quickly.

    I teach all the techniques from static position, but sometimes demonstrate it with a moving uke. For example, with sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi, I could have an uke charging at me or really pushing me aggressively and I'll step aside. But for the students, they just do static uchi-komi, and once they understand the movement enough, they do some throws. The secret is in the position and balance of the uke. I make sure that the uke leans a bit forward for any forward techniques, and neutral or backward (depending on the degree of impact needed) for a backward technique. Uke's weight balance, posture, reaction are essential to the learning and making sense of each technique for the tori.

    I currently teach at two places, one has a concrete floor with 4cm puzzle mats, and another has wooden floor with 3cm puzzle mats. Most days we do throws and it is not uncommon to go through 40 to 50 throws apart from another 100~200 uchi komis - divided among the several techniques of the day.

    idealab

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-04-01

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by idealab on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:06 am

    BillC wrote:
    noboru wrote:I think that any else good and strong ashi waza is good way how begin attack.

    Generally Kouchi gari, Kosoto gari/gake, Sasae tsurikomi ashi, Hiza guruma (to smaller opponent) are good techniques for destroying opponnents posture. Good work of kumikata opens possibilities for attack too...

    For beginners - I try to teach open attack with the Sasae tsurikomi ashi or Kosoto gake and Kouchi gari to opponents static foot (not in moving) with strong work of hands.

    Again ... no criticism but an honest question ... how often with beginners does your sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi practice lead to a fully completed technique?  Or is it simply an entry attack to set up additional techniques?  Reading your post, you must be teaching with uke stepping back and forth?

    And what is your mat surface?

    The reason I ask those questions in combination is that once a beginner uke understands what is supposed to happen, having been thrown once or twice, he or she will most often subconsciously either help or hinder tori.  The choice of sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi seems to require the correct reaction and the correct timing of uke as well as tori ... something like ogoshi not so much.  And done correctly, it is kind of a scary fall for a beginner.  How long is your learning curve on this?

    Almost every single practice for the first three months my beginner students do sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi to completion. Usually it's 10 uchi-komis, and 5 throws, twice. They don't step back and forth, just lean or push a bit forward for the tori to perform the technique with a realistic feeling. Some of these students can actually pull off this technique in randori again other beginners in the first month, and it is not an isolated incident. So the learning curve is quite short because I made them see it's a natural reaction and they really feel it. It is actually easier to pull off than ko-uchi-gari, which is introduced around the third months (then practice for the next ten years).

    Once they show sufficient control with sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi, and o-soto-gari, I introduce to them the concept of combination and let them go back and forth.

    One thing that I wish that someone in my early judo years taught me and the others is that it is better to be explicit in the reaction a uke should have toward the tori. What posture, how to balance his weight, how to react. This makes the learning curve so much shorter. So I explicitly emphasize this to all of my students.
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:20 am

    BillC wrote:Leaving the topic of what is dangerous, discussion of banning, etc.

    In a positive direction ... what techniques have teachers come to believe are safe starting waza?

    I'll start.  

    I teach teens and adults.  Generally, I do not require a tremendous amount of ukemi before throwing and being thrown commence.  Generally, if a student has at least some experience in wrestling or BJJ for example, that will be in the first practice ... under my individual direction.

    For learning falls to the side, I often have students "throw" each other with deashi harai.  I use the parentheses because the uke are instructed to take the perfect fall as if they were perfectly thrown.  The requirement to hold on to tori seems to interrupt the tendency to reach for the floor and soon students take this very easy fall with confidence.

    Kouchi gari done by reaping uke's advance foot is similar, though the "slip on a banana peel" feeling is difficult for beginners to overcome, so they usually anticipate and mess up tori.  And of course this is not the "drive under the chin and plant uke on the back of his head" type of kouchi gari.

    Ouchi gari SHOULD be a very easy fall, but again the "freak out factor" and the tendency for tori to lose his/her balance and plant his/her knee in uke's crotch to avoid falling flat onto uke.  Not ideal.  I teach it alone and in combination with kouchi gari with uke's shoulder leaning back against the wall.

    Ogoshi with a rodeo ending from tori.  Good basic forward throw with lots of control possible.  

    Ippon seoi nage into a crash pad with proper positioning relative to the pad.  Hard throw, hard fall, but good for teaching students to take such a fall with control, and to give the throw with control.  I find that other activities teach what amounts to an arm drag ... dangerous ... best to start UN-learning that one early.

    What else do y'all use early in the throwing experience?


    I also teach mostly kids as young as 10, teens, and adults.

    The short answer is (not in order)
    1.) De Ashi Barai
    2.) Ouchi Gari
    3.) O Goshi
    4.) Hiza Guruma
    5.) Ippon Seoi Nage
    5.) Tsurikomi Goshi (this one is usually last, coincidentally, or I should say after O Goshi).

    Depending on how things progress, I might add in something different. You will notice the lack Osoto Gari, although I think there are safe progressions/processes to teach it.

    The issue isn't so much technique, IMO...we get too hung up on technique in Judo rather than the process of learning the stuff in between or leading up to or after technique.

    So, the process of how to get there is much more critical.

    The sooner the student can (relatively safely) partake of the process of doing judo or some reasonable facsimile thereof, the better. Because what they learn at first is what will stick with them and come out under stress. That's not a perfect process, and there is no perfect way to go about it.

    Assuming some sort of general instruction on landing positions, protecting oneself and training partner, etc. I do as little tatami beating as possible.

    1.) Paired training of uke and tori, getting the feel of position of landing and how to support uke (drills, static)
    2.) Paired training, uke and tori, low amplitude falling. This includes uke on knees with tori turning (or not), uke landing in falling position, supported by tori.
    Note that this introduces tai sabaki and turning dynamics to tori as well as safe "falling" to uke.
    You can introduce transitions to ne waza/katame waza that way as well, safely, plus escapes. Students can do "randori" that way quickly and safely.

    Sometimes it is necessary to iterate between levels of difficulty, go back step or part of a step to isolate a movement that needs emphasis.











    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:22 am

    BillC wrote:
    Finally ... I forgot to ask in my original post ... what is your mat surface and what is underneath?

    Foam tatami over a foam block floating floor.

    In other words, a very nice set up.


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:24 am

    Getting a bit ahead, but I do not have beginners do much in the way of uchikomi. Uchikomi are much harder to do "correctly" than a throw or reasonable facsimile thereof.

    It's about the process, not the technique.


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    avatar
    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:28 pm

    In the kids classes we usually teach
    O soto gari
    Ko soto gari
    O uchi gari
    De ashi harai
    Hiza guruma
    Koshi guruma
    O guruma

    When they grow a bit older ( juniors ), we complement these with
    Seoi nage
    Morote seoi nage
    Ko uchi gari
    Okuri ashi harai
    Uki goshi
    Tsuri komi goshi
    Harai goshi
    Hanai goshi
    Uchi mata
    Tani otoshi
    Sumi gaeshi
    and probably some others aswel.

    In senior class, we teach about anything, regardless of experience. BUT...
    As Ben says, it is not about the technique, but the way it is taught and practiced!

    When beginners start in our senior class, we have to take them along with the rest, to keep it interesting for everyone. But the first few lessons we take them apart to have one of our teachers show them the principles of ukemi and have them practice those. Also we tend to do several ukemi programs during the warmup session. After a short while, they just participate in whatever techniques are taught during the lesson. That is, within reason ofcourse. When we practice fe tomoe nage, we let them practice the grip, sitting/lying down by tory, stepping over and rolling by uke. Until we are sure that they are up for throwing. And from that stage on, the throw starts very slowly/softly, and builds up gradually. This principle goes for every technique. There are two possible setups. Beginner+beginner with direct 1:1 attention from one of our teachers. Or beginner+seriously experienced people ( preferrably dan-grade ) who can adjust easily.

    We have never had any serious injuries during normal practice. Of course everyone does not always fall equally comfortable and bangs their heads once or twice, but this has never even lead to having to break up practice before.

    We train at different locations, with some hardwood floors with 4 cm foam mats and some even concrete floors with 4 cm foam mats. We do not use crash mats/pads.
    avatar
    Jacob3

    Posts : 50
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : Netherlands

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:36 pm

    BillC wrote:

    The reason I ask those questions in combination is that once a beginner uke understands what is supposed to happen, having been thrown once or twice, he or she will most often subconsciously either help or hinder tori.

    This is not only a problem for beginners Very Happy
    At our club this is a problem for all up to junior class and even for many in senior class. Being a good uke is the most difficult thing in Judo imho. However I have recently found Ju no kata to be extremely helpfull to improve this. Even for the less experienced people.

    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 585
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    about my teaching of few adults beginners in very small group

    Post by noboru on Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:56 pm

    BillC wrote:Again ... no criticism but an honest question ... how often with beginners does your sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi practice lead to a fully completed technique? Or is it simply an entry attack to set up additional techniques? Reading your post, you must be teaching with uke stepping back and forth?

    And what is your mat surface?

    The reason I ask those questions in combination is that once a beginner uke understands what is supposed to happen, having been thrown once or twice, he or she will most often subconsciously either help or hinder tori. The choice of Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi seems to require the correct reaction and the correct timing of uke as well as tori ... something like ogoshi not so much. And done correctly, it is kind of a scary fall for a beginner. How long is your learning curve on this?

    Thank you for your question, I try to explain little bit more. I try to teach few adults beginners only in very small group, no any children.

    My personal understanding of judo is develop good Ashi waza and master only one or two technigues from Koshi waza / Tewaza etc. Ashi waza is basic. My experience tell me, that is very difficult learn Koshi waza techniques in short time, Ashi waza is easier make it corectly in kihon. Sometimes they have not strong body (legs, abdomen, hands for good Kuzushi and Tsukuri) and their are not ready learn Koshi Waza or Seoi Nage (first 3 months / 1 training per week). No Uchikomi, only Butsugari (kuzushi+tsukuri) during first 6 months. No Randori/Kakari/Sute geiko for pure beginners (to 1 year of practice) only lot of Yakusokugeiko in Tachi waza. They have to use their ashi waza and slowly adding next techniques, they develop their sense for using Ashi waza in dependence of movement. They are able to better control of opponents and the throws and falling are not dangerous. Randori is only in Newaza.

    In the case Sasae tsurikomi ashi: I teach the way as is in Nage no kata (3 steps back) in first. Next is two steps variations (push (uke steps back right foot), pull (uke steps forward right foot), then Sasae tsurikomi ashi). Next are the variations...

    In the case Kouchi gari - I teach the Kouchi gari to static standing opponent. Next level is Kouchi gari in push / pull motion. Next level is Kouchi gari in movement to the side.

    In the case Kosoto gake and Kosoto gari teaching is similar as in Kouchi gari (standing opponent first, in movement second).

    About kihon Nage waza - I try to use techniques in way how Daigo sensei wrote in his book Kodokan Judo: Throwing Techniques by Toshiro Daigo

    ------------------------
    Tachi waza set techniques for teaching:
    About first 3 months:
    Sasae tsurikomi ashi
    Kouchi gari
    Hiza guruma
    Kosoto gari
    Kosoto gake
    + preparing for Koshi waza + Butsukari (static a and easy movement) - as is in Kosei Inoue lesson video at the times about 6:00-11:10

    Kosei Inoue 15 oktober 2011


    After 3 months:
    Morote Seoi Nage
    Ogoshi
    Osoto gari
    Ouchi gari

    It is good set for making some Renraku waza and try to developing sense for combination possibilities during of attack.

    About my mat surface: Tatami on the parquet block (no floating floor).

    About Uke:
    I try to be good UKE for them. I try to rotate as Uke between them. I think that they have to feel good Uke in every session or teaching of new techniques. I try to help them in body movement as Uke for their success. I am able better explain the their mistakes if I am their Uke.
    Is not good situation, If are two beginners in the same level in pair. Rotating of Uke is very important.

    It is my todays opinion how teach adult beginners. If I found anything better, it will be changed.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In last time I saw some parts from japanese instruction judo DVD about safety teaching of judo. There are make Hiza guruma at the first (Uke is on the knees and tori makes the Hiza guruma).  It is safety and good way.

    Look on the picture from DVD case:


    it is from DVD 新・学校柔道 〜安全確保の指導法〜
    https://www.hint.jp/cgi-bin/kshop/kshop_j.pl/page=dvo28_j.html/SID=1434432906.40217
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:14 am

    Jacob3 wrote:In the kids classes we usually teach
    O soto gari
    Ko soto gari
    O uchi gari
    De ashi harai
    Hiza guruma
    Koshi guruma
    O guruma

    When they grow a bit older ( juniors ), we complement these with
    Seoi nage
    Morote seoi nage
    Ko uchi gari
    Okuri ashi harai
    Uki goshi
    Tsuri komi goshi
    Harai goshi
    Hanai goshi
    Uchi mata
    Tani otoshi
    Sumi gaeshi
    and probably some others aswel.

    In senior class, we teach about anything, regardless of experience. BUT...
    As Ben says, it is not about the technique, but the way it is taught and practiced!

    When beginners start in our senior class, we have to take them along with the rest, to keep it interesting for everyone. But the first few lessons we take them apart to have one of our teachers show them the principles of ukemi and have them practice those. Also we tend to do several ukemi programs during the warmup session. After a short while, they just participate in whatever techniques are taught during the lesson. That is, within reason ofcourse. When we practice fe tomoe nage, we let them practice the grip, sitting/lying down by tory, stepping over and rolling by uke. Until we are sure that they are up for throwing. And from that stage on, the throw starts very slowly/softly, and builds up gradually. This principle goes for every technique. There are two possible setups. Beginner+beginner with direct 1:1 attention from one of our teachers. Or beginner+seriously experienced people ( preferrably dan-grade ) who can adjust easily.

    We have never had any serious injuries during normal practice. Of course everyone does not always fall equally comfortable and bangs their heads once or twice, but this has never even lead to having to break up practice before.

    We train at different locations, with some hardwood floors with 4 cm foam mats and some even concrete floors with 4 cm foam mats. We do not use crash mats/pads.

    Having a beginner train with a more experienced judoka is critical, especially at first. A good uke is critical...having success at first is very motivating.



    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    Brainjutsu

    Posts : 27
    Join date : 2013-11-15

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Brainjutsu on Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:21 pm

    BillC wrote:Generally, I do not require a tremendous amount of ukemi before throwing and being thrown commence.

    I believe you've already provided the answer to your problem. Focus more on ukemi before moving to throws for all throws are inherently dangerous. The fear of falling is natural and students must learn that ukemi is a way of overcoming it. Thus, the approach should be to progress from easier and less dangerous to more complex techniques. I believe, it's been mentioned in some other discussions that the very order of techniques in gokyo was based on uke's safety considerations. After all, judo evolved from the idea of making jujutsu practice safer and thus more acceptable to ordinary people, including children. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

    I understand the desire for reaching the competitive level practice as soon as possible and I agree that a traditional approach that I was exposed to, for example, can be made more effective. Yet, there are limits to it. I'd rather have students leaving dojo for being a bit disappointed in the expected pace of their progress than for being injured, or worse. The former can always come back and they often do so. Furthermore, those opting to immediately go for the "real-deal" no matter the cost, often happen to blame the teacher when "the cost" comes instead of glory. (Preventing reckless behavior is teacher's obligation in general but that's a different issue at this point).

    In that sense, I find osotogari and seoi otoshi actually good techniques for introducing young students to taking ukemi in a real throw. For example, in osotogari I start with tori making only the movement to uke's side and have uke fall down once the kuzushi phase is reached. Similarly, in seoi otoshi it begins with uke making the forward breakfall over kneeling uke's shoulder, then it's progressed to having tori make the pull uke's hand downwards, and so on till we reach the "fearsome" ippon seoi nage or so. In both cases the usual individual ukemi exercises are brought closer to actual throws they're used in. It may sound like a lot of time but it's not. Once they get over the initial fear of hitting the mat, students tend to move to a higher level themselves. It's only important to avoid having them jump over the throw and make them understand to follow tori's lead.

    Best regards


    DougNZ

    Posts : 399
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:34 am

    In the early days while ukemi is developing, the focus for safety should be on tori.  For that reason, I start with osoto otoshi.  In this version, tori is well grounded on both feet and has good balance.  They therefore have a very high chance of helping uke to the mat in a controlled manner.  Besides, have you ever watched brand new kids do randori?  They stiff-arm each other and both try to hook the other behind the knee.  Why? Because they feel fairly secure doing this.  To me, osoto otoshi does not take tori far outside their comfort zone for their first throw.

    The next throw I teach is tai otoshi because tori's base is very similar to that in osoto otoshi (in the simplified kids' version).  Pretty much, they step across outside uke's foot, turn a bit, and put their lapel hand on the ground somewhere in front of their 'blocking' leg.  Again, tori is well grounded at the time of throwing and has a fair chance of putting uke down in a controlled manner. We emphasise the rule that tori is to never let go of the elbow grip and this helps put uke into a side breakfall.

    The third throw I teach is ippon seoi nage.  The kids take the 'under hook', turn around, kneel down between uke's feet and put their ear on the ground.  To start with, they let go their grip before putting their ear on the ground so uke remains standing.  Then they retain their grip and uke concentrates on taking a forward roll over the kneeling tori.  Tori is very grounded in this throw and uke has a lot of freedom to form their roll and breakfall.

    I normally teach a general hip throw next.  I find kids struggle to fit their fulcrum in place well and that means they have little control over uke's fall.  As it is the highest drop (technically, the fulcrum is at waist height, whilst in osoto otoshi it is at lower thigh height, and both tai otoshi and 'drop' ippon seoi nage is at ground height) it is pretty scary for uke.  In this progression, by the time they get to hip throw, they have been going a month or two and have better awareness of base, balance and care for uke.

    Bear in mind that these throws are modified for seven year-olds to take maximum care of uke.  They are far from model throws but they can be improved as the kids get older.  If they get hurt being dumped by a kid trying to do a textbook throw they won't be around long enough to develop a model throw!
    avatar
    noboru

    Posts : 585
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Teaching of judo safe-throw technique

    Post by noboru on Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:00 am

    柔道 安全な投技の指導法
    Teaching of judo safe-throw technique
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JKskIjjhUs


    Ukemi teaching
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey89ohh8tX4


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB3Yp5l5-kw


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BIpsf_TiSI


    Teaching throwing basics with triangle
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thpHhykAPrw




    avatar
    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:09 am

    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by NBK on Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:32 am

    The four videos above posted by Noboru (thanks!) are a teaching seminar from TOKUYASU Hidemasa sensei, who heads the judo instruction of the jûdô seifukushi (judo massage practioners, 'bonesetters' to some) division of Tokyo Ariaki University of Medical and Health Sciences.

    There is a lot of emphasis in Japan now on judo instructor education, how to build up appropriate and adequate skills safely. In the beginning clip, he emphasizes the importance of the skills of both tori and uke.
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by BillC on Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:35 pm

    Brainjutsu wrote:

    I believe you've already provided the answer to your problem. ...


    Well, I am going to be a little bit argumentative. I actually do not have a problem. At the risk of a jinx, I have to say my class has a pretty good safety record compared to others I have attended. The process you describe is a traditional one ... I am familiar with it and with others ... prefer to teach differently for what I think are solid reasons based on results ... I just think we'll agree to disagree.

    What I was interested in when I started the topic ... the variety of techniques instructors thought were appropriate for beginners.

    What really amazed me ... perhaps the rest of the membership had the same realization I did ... that it was possible in most responses to get a mental image of the kind of dojo each poster comes from.

    Final note of the evening. Attended the USJF kata conference over the weekend. Sensei presented ... though she had not even heard about the osotogari death ... methods to assist the safe execution of throws with hesitant uke. Ukemi and nagewaza practice need not be learned separately, people can help each other. I even learned a kinky three-way throwing technique that provides even more safety. What a Face


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1097
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by NBK on Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:03 am

    'I even learned a kinky three-way throwing technique that provides even more safety. '


    oooooooooo....... you, Yuji chama, and a switch hitter to be named????? Safely, by all means.

    On a more serious note, we've been using three man drills more and more. I think it's a great tool.

    NBK

    PS - I think you're a great tool, too. When are you coming to the Big Mikan?
    '
    avatar
    BillC

    Posts : 806
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Vista, California

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by BillC on Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:17 am

    NBK wrote:'I even learned a kinky three-way throwing technique that provides even more safety. '


    oooooooooo....... you, Yuji chama, and a switch hitter to be named?????  Safely, by all means.

    On a more serious note, we've been using three man drills more and more.  I think it's a great tool.

    NBK

    PS - I think you're a great tool, too.  When are you coming to the Big Mikan?
    '

    On Bastille Day ... you and you partner register yet?


    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:58 am

    Ricebale wrote:

    I didn't see any throwing going on there.


    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980
    avatar
    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:01 am

    BillC wrote:
    Brainjutsu wrote:

    I believe you've already provided the answer to your problem. ...


    Well, I am going to be a little bit argumentative.  I actually do not have a problem.  At the risk of a jinx, I have to say my class has a pretty good safety record compared to others I have attended.  The process you describe is a traditional one ... I am familiar with it and with others ... prefer to teach differently for what I think are solid reasons based on results ... I just think we'll agree to disagree.

    What I was interested in when I started the topic ... the variety of techniques instructors thought were appropriate for beginners.

    What really amazed me ... perhaps the rest of the membership had the same realization I did ... that it was possible in most responses to get a mental image of the kind of dojo each poster comes from.

    Final note of the evening.  Attended the USJF kata conference over the weekend.  Sensei presented ... though she had not even heard about the osotogari death ... methods to assist the safe execution of throws with hesitant uke.  Ukemi and nagewaza practice need not be learned separately, people can help each other.  I even learned a kinky three-way throwing technique that provides even more safety. What a Face

    Good lord, Bill, what is the judo world coming to ? Mutual welfare and benefit ? How will the USA ever come to it's righteous place of dominance in international competition ?



    _________________
    Falling for Judo Since 1980

    Sponsored content

    Re: So if osotogari and seoi otoshi are dangerous, what are some good starting throws?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:17 am