E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Share

    Reinberger

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Reinberger on Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:28 pm

    In this other thread, the expression "manners" evoked some comments about it's relevance in budō. However, despite my suggestions towards possible practical effects, anybody else seemed to only address quite obvious values in a more philosophical sense.

    I thought, perhaps it could be of interest to initiate a more in-depth discussion. To make even clearer, what I mean with "practical effects", I thought to formulate a question along those two themes "seiryoku zenyō" and "jita kyōei", that Kanō-shihan had set for his Jūdō. Most people seem to primarily look at the expressions used in the title of this thread in a sense, that corresponds to the more abstract idea of "jita kyōei". What do you think about their other applications and values, the ones that seem to belong rather to the less philosophical, but more practical side of "seiryoku zenyō"?

    For example, the "jita kyōei" aspect of (any kind of) "courtesy" and "manners" might help to avoid certain forms of confrontations in their native society at all; but in which way could regular practice and application of "Japanese-style" courtesy and dōjō-etiquette add to the skills needed to remain successful in a self-defence situation everywhere in the world, or in other cases of emergency, if such situations occur nevertheless? I, for one, but without wishing to pre-empt too much, am thinking that indeed, they can help, an that's also why I guess, that this thread fits well into this sub-forum.


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    DougNZ

    Posts : 395
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:31 am

    My club is fairly loose on etiquette but that is probably because we have a very laid back culture here.  We are, nevertheless, big on 'generosity of spirit' and that has manifested itself in a dojo that 'feels good' when one enters it (we are told) and a club that is welcoming and inclusive.  That combination works for us.
    Instructors are addressed on first name basis and all do randori equally with pupils.  There are no pretences or ego and that gains the instructors more respect than any artificial construct of titles and etiquette. At the end of the day, our goal is to help members become 'good people' and we try to do that by modelling positive behaviours whilst having loads of fun.

    Reinberger

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:38 am

    Thank you, DougNZ.

    So would it be correct, to summarize your posting with:

    The things addressed in the title of this thread are of no practical value. As they furthermore can be regarded as including artificial constructs of titles and etiquette that foster pretence and ego, and we are living in a different culture anyway, we don't adhere to them.

    regarding a direct answer to my question?


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    noboru

    Posts : 552
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Reigi article from Jigoro Kano

    Post by noboru on Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:22 pm

    On the Kodokan Institute website is arcticle from Kano Shihan about Reigi. I think that the article explains Kanos view of Reigi good.

    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/grace/

    Anyway:
    In japanese swords martial arts is knowledges about Saho and Reigi very important. If you hold the swords, your manner could be very strict with Saho and Reigi. Some exceptions or other way in behaviour than is in Saho could mean pottential (possible) attack. It is practical meaning of Reigi. In todays time - Reigi could help you go through the own life safety.
    Different countries = different manners. Different level of society in same country = different manners... => different right behaviour.

    My opinion is that Reigi and Saho in dojo could help create good enviroment for good teaching and good training. Bows to partners and sensei during keiko are explanations our thanks for group practice. Is very hard train and learn judo alone.

    NBK

    Posts : 1059
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by NBK on Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:10 pm

    noboru wrote:On the Kodokan Institute website is arcticle from Kano Shihan about Reigi. I think that the article explains Kanos view of Reigi good.

    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/grace/

    Anyway:
    In japanese swords martial arts is knowledges about Saho and Reigi very important. If you hold the swords, your manner could be very strict with Saho and Reigi. Some exceptions or other way in behaviour than is in Saho could mean pottential (possible) attack. It is practical meaning of Reigi. In todays time - Reigi could help you go through the own life safety.
    Different countries = different manners. Different level of society in same country = different manners... => different right behaviour.。。。。.
    Learning how to deal with a variety of people in a modest and humble manner works in most places, doesn't it?

    Reinberger

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:21 pm

    Noboru,

    thank you for your comments.

    I think, what you write about the background of Reigi and Sahō in Japanese schools of sword arts is spot-on, but rather refers to it's origins, and were especially crucial in the times they developed; much of it might rightly be regarded as obsolete today, regarding practical values. For example, if one fails to omit the clashing of his saya (scabbard) with someone else's, I doubt that it would lead to an immediate duel to death nowadays. However, other parts or aspects, even of this rule, may still have retained their practical significance, even in our days.

    What you are referring to, when you write "Different countries = different manners. Different level of society in same country = different manners... => different right behaviour" is also something, I think to be so true! But it isn't what I tried to allude to, with this thread.

    If one reads at the link you've kindly provided, Rei, Reihō and Reigi also seem to be considered mainly in connection with Jita Kyōei there (I think, that I hadn't read that pages before, but now the phrasing I used in my question, linking the concepts in question with the two maxims of jūdō, even seems to be somewhat like "official justified" to me Smile ).

    However, there's also at least one hint to be found there, in the direction I'm talking about here: the more practical, or technical part, that I understand to be more affiliated with Seiryoku Zenyō. It's the expression "posture", that was described as something being "closely related to the concept of Reigi", by Kanō-shihan in his "Youth Training Precepts" (Seinen Shuyō-Kun).

    As "posture" is something, that's also very important to execute (correct, or "good") techniques, I think that this is one of the more practical effects, that adherence to Reigi could foster. I say "one of", as I believe there are more.

    NBK,

    thank you, too, for your remark, which obviously is utterly true, but also doesn't address the technical, practical, or physical effects I tried to address with his thread.


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    johan smits

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by johan smits on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:58 pm

    Reiho is a difficult subject. On one hand reiho is a bunch of rules in a crowded dojo meant to keep proceedings safe. Swords and other weapons all over the place is not a good idea. There has got to be rules. On the other side Reiho is a very mundane practical form of tuning in in the environment and situation. Ellis Amdur has written on that. Tune in with the mood of the sensei when training starts and adapt to that. Any time you do not tune in correctly it is akin to someone on patrol misreads a situation and getting shot.
    He writes much more eloquently. But I do think he is right and it should be a very important very practical part of reiho.

    Another practical something is you can use your peripheral vision while bowing. Looking down a bit enlarges your peripheral vision. How do you sit? Can you move effectively in an emergency?, How about the your maai? Can he reach you, can you reach him? Different for both sides.

    Another thing very practical I think. Reiho is a good moment to check on your physical posture. I think that is pretty much overlooked these days in both judo and in a lot of jujutsu schools.
    What I mean is this: I train in Yang style taijiquan for some time. (which as I am taught is ‘unarmed combat according to the Yin/Yang principle.’). When my posture in the beginning (body alignment +) is not correct my teacher will say it is not Taijiquan. It may look like taijiquan but it is not. I may be doing the movements, going through the motions but it is not Taijiquan since something essential is missing.

    I have ‘sat with’ Reho in my younger days. It felt strange to do things following an etiquette so alien to my own culture. I had a strict teacher who would elaborate on Reiho, it was not the bobbing of the head so to speak. It was only when I got older and started learning other things I got to appreciate it more. Bought a book on European (Dutch) etiquette and manners. Learned quite a lot from that if only how obsolete it has become in my country these days.

    Anyway, my two cents.

    Happy landings.

    noboru

    Posts : 552
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    Transitions within Kodokan Judo Etiquette パ ネ リ ス ト 講 話

    Post by noboru on Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:39 pm

    Other nice document about judo reiho, rei from Naoki Murata

    Transitions within Kodokan Judo Etiquette パ ネ リ ス ト 講 話
    http://budo2008.nifs-k.ac.jp/pdf/murata_e.pdf

    Naoki Murata wrote:
    Ⅰ.Introduction
     Jigoro Kano explains that, ‘Since bowing is a form of showing one’s respect to other people, it is required to
    perform it before and after kata, the practice of randori, and competition. Since the essence of randori is fi ghting,
    showing respect before and after, and because randori is performed for the purpose of honing one’s skills, one shows
    each other respect during each interaction (reference 1)’.
     The keyword here would be respect. The bow is interpreted as ‘a form to show respect to other people’
    incorporating etiquette.
     How is it with jujutsu, the mother form of judo? If we look at Tenshin Shinyo Ryu which Kano practiced as an
    example, ‘bowing does not mean showing respect, but is always performed wiht the mindset of the will to fight, for
    which it is not allowed to relax one’s attention from before entering an engagement until after it has fi nished (reference
    2)’.
     The keyword here would be fight. The purpose of a fight is to kill.
    In judo respect for one’s opponent, in jujutsu killing one’s opponent. The intent of the bow is almost 180 degrees
    opposite. And why should the angle also be different? The reason for this becomes clear upon considering the
    purpose (reference 3) of judo.
     The inner most intent of judo lies not in killing, but in the way to mutual flourishing. Here the fundamental
    morality of judo can be grasped as follows.
     Fundamental morality of judo = A spirit that aims at mutual flourishing
    Ⅱ.Bow and Etiquette
     In judo etiquette shows the spirit of mutual flourishing by the sitting bow (zarei) and standing bow (ritsurei).
    According to Kano (reference 4), ‘In the case of zarei, one closely positions the feet’s arches on the tatami, lowers
    the backside on to the heels, placing the hands on the tatami while pointing the fi ngertips slightly inward, lowering
    the head until the backside of the head is at the same level as the back’, and in case of ritsurei, one bows from a
    position standing straight bending the upper body forward at an angle of about 30 degrees while at the same time
    naturally lowering the hands until right above the knees. Kano says, ‘In each case, one is required to perform the bow
    from the heart’ and he warns against performing a bow superfi cially and only in form without involving the heart.
    Furthermore, ‘One needs to perform the bow not only when facing an opponent as in kata or randori practice, but also upon
    entering the dojo, towards the head of the dojo as well as towards the people who are in his presence’.

    Kano explains, ‘Inside the dojo, there are many other things one needs to be acquainted with. First of all, because
    the dojo is a place of discipline one is required to compose oneself, perform one’s actions in a straightforward
    manner and refrain from things like senseless talk and noisy behavior. Furthermore, during training as well as during
    matches one must always use all one’s energy, and when taking a break one must pay attention to other’s training in
    a well-behaved manner attempting to benefi t from this in order to polish oneself. Then, thinking of the dojo as each
    other’s house, keeping things clean and tight is obvious, but one must exert oneself in maintaining order’.

    One who outwardly practices what he has inwardly learned will be able to be called a true judo apprentice.

    NBK

    Posts : 1059
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by NBK on Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:52 am

    Reinberger wrote:......; .

    NBK,

    thank you, too, for your remark, which obviously is utterly true, but also doesn't address the technical, practical, or physical effects I tried to address with his thread.

    'Technical effects'? Sorry, I don't understand.

    Reinberger

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Reinberger on Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:34 pm

    NBK,

    perhaps "technical effects" may include different connotations in German and in English. Anyway, what I mean, is this: When I watch the average beginner "kneeling down" or "standing up again" I appreciate the help, things like zarei (for example) offer, regarding the teaching of correct moving one's body from the center.

    Moreover, I myself don't regard sitting in seiza, as well as preparing for, or the practice of,  mokusō or zazen as something "passive" in nature. I regard them to be active exercises: "Is my body really upright? Is the weight distribution evenly? How about the tension of my center? Where are my shoulders? How is the posture of my head? Is my spine straight? Are there any unnecessary tensions or strains in my musculature?"

    That is, for example, what I alluded to (perhaps inapplicable in English?) with "technical effects".

    Summarized, bodily awareness, to me, is one of the most practical aspects, reihō and reishiki are teaching us, making it become more and more "natural", as well as "automated", in the course of time.


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    Reinberger

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Reinberger on Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:22 pm

    Thank you both, Johan, as well as Noboru again.

    Via Noboru's quote of and link to Murata-sensei's text, we had been reminded to distinguish between the meaning, as well as the outer forms of rei between schools of Kobudō and Gendai Budō. As this forum is named "E-Judo", I think we can turn our attention to the more modern forms of budō, and their use of respective concepts. And while people here, like DougNZ and myself, but also like NBK, as his "second art" (if I may say so), practise arts, that also are called jūjutsu, those shouldn't be mistaken as that older styles of jūjutsu, Murata-sensei is talking about. I don't think, that anybody of us would regard that, what he performs, as a training just for "killing one’s opponent", as opposed to "mutual flourishing".

    Again, jūdō-etiquette is mainly considered from the angle of Jita-kyōei in that paper. However, there's also one point, I want to mention in particular. It's the closing remark:

    "Bowing is ‘a form of showing respect to others’. However, expressing this form is oneself. Therefore, to express this form properly, one is required to manage oneself.

    The question is whether this inner self is steady or not. Isn’t it so, that the essence of the true bow that is required of judo (budo) apprentices, can be found in truth? No matter how uza saki, saza uki and outward form changes..."

    In that sense also, perhaps a bit less directly, compared with other points, I believe that reigi, reihō & Cie can add to one's ability to master all kinds of situations, as it provides training in "managing oneself". "Steadiness of the inner self" also seems to me to be something, which can not be bad to develop and maintain, and for very practical reasons as well. Finally, the expression of "truth", that can also be found in the last paragraph, reminds me on "reality", and what could be more dangerous in a situation of emergency, than NOT to be realistic, NOT to see and consider things as they really are? I think, it's better to accept truth and reality, perhaps always, but especially under dangerous circumstances.

    The "attitude of losers of matches at tournaments" is also something, that is brought up in that text. This time, I would include the behaviour of the winners of said matches, too. Correct reigi teach to NEITHER lapse into expressions of anger or disappointment, on and off the tatami, NOR to lapse into some kind of silly jigs.

    Therefore, reigi teaches to control one's emotions, an ability, which is another very practical thing, to my mind.

    Regarding one citation of Kanō-shihan within the paper, I now myself deviate briefly from the actual topic of this thread. Murata-sensei writes:

    "Kano says, ‘In each case, one is required to perform the bow from the heart’ and he warns against performing a bow superficially and only in form without involving the heart."

    I often wonder, how anybody can think to have delivered rei, when the situation demanded it, while the only thing I could observe, was rather a queer form of headbutt.

    Johan addressed "a bunch of rules in a crowded dōjō", and it's correct that they also have to do with safety, especially when weapons are concerned. However, this meaning today obviously is limited to the smaller world of the dōjō. I was thinking more along the lines of "real life", when I started this thread.

    And, indeed, Johan also catered to that topic. He mentioned "physical posture", something, which I thought to have been included already in the link Noboru provided with his first posting. But then, Johan writes: "Another practical something is you can use your peripheral vision while bowing". He connected that with an awareness of maai. A very good point, I think! Now, imagine yourself even trying to follow the Japanese way, doing a bow a bit deeper and holding it an idea longer, when you are bowing to a higher ranked person. To practice correct reihō, in that sense, can also teach you to use your peripheral vision, AND react according to the impressions you get from it.

    I think, we've arrived at a point now, that makes it easier to understand, what I meant with "the practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.". Could we still find some more examples for that?


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    NBK

    Posts : 1059
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by NBK on Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:46 pm

    Reinberger wrote:NBK,

    perhaps "technical effects" may include different connotations in German and in English. Anyway, what I mean, is this: When I watch the average beginner "kneeling down" or "standing up again" I appreciate the help, things like zarei (for example) offer, regarding the teaching of correct moving one's body from the center.

    Moreover, I myself don't regard sitting in seiza, as well as preparing for, or the practice of,  mokusō or zazen as something "passive" in nature. I regard them to be active exercises: "Is my body really upright? Is the weight distribution evenly? How about the tension of my center? Where are my shoulders? How is the posture of my head? Is my spine straight? Are there any unnecessary tensions or strains in my musculature?"

    That is, for example, what I alluded to (perhaps inapplicable in English?) with "technical effects".

    Summarized, bodily awareness, to me, is one of the most practical aspects, reihō and reishiki are teaching us, making it become more and more "natural", as well as "automated", in the course of time.

    Aaaahhhhh so ka....
    This is very different.

    I certainly know there is a 'technical' effect in the mind and body.  

    In my little judo world in big Tokyo some senior  Japanese sensei will refer new students to me to teach the significance and mechanics, or the 'technical' aspects  of modern judo reigi. (Stand thusly heels together, feet 30-45 degrees apart.... Shizentai is this, jigotai is that...)

    Sometimes I throw in a bit of history.  Why is it this way?  Was it always thus? And show a bit of the old style.

    And sometimes someone asks the right/wrong question to which I respond - no, it's not Zen. In fact, it may be something very different, very much older. And very different.

    I think that Robert is on the right track - not that I'm ahead of him, but I think the same way. While not a primary study, I've collected a couple of texts in the issue.

    Where is Anatol if we want to discuss seiza?  CK is apparently on a permanent vacation or he might have something interesting to contribute.

    NBK

    noboru

    Posts : 552
    Join date : 2013-08-26
    Age : 38
    Location : Czech Republic

    next two texts about Rei from Kodokan website

    Post by noboru on Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:20 am

    Judo and Rei - Its Spirit
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/spirit/

    Shinichi OIMATSU wrote:In the Judo dojo, we are able to learn and engage in bouts because we have training partners. Therefore, we should take care to show them every courtesy. When entering a competition or cheering on others, we should suppress the desire to win at all costs, making reckless movements without caring if we cause injury, and mistreating our opponent. Because the budo arts are mainly composed of fierce techniques and attacking movements, if the spirit of respect and harmony is neglected, the bout will descend into little more than a violent conflict. The expression "Budo begins with Rei and ends with Rei" emphasises the spirit of respect needed to prevent such a regrettable occurrence, and is very important in Judo today. The stronger you become, the spirit of Rei and the attitude of Jita-Kyoei must be maintained all the more.

    Unpleasantness directed towards you from a senior must not in turn be passed on to a junior. Offensive behaviour emanating from a person in front of you, should not be channelled back to a person behind you. It is true in many cases, however, that one comes to understand what is unacceptable only when it is done to them for the first time. Those who practise Judo should always consider whether or not their conduct towards others is causing discomfort or bother. The root of the spirit of Rei that we embody in Judo is precisely to respect others, and to not initiate acrimony. As a matter of courtesy, we demonstrate Rei to people above us, our peers, and those below us. Now, however, the Rei that we must earnestly reflect on is towards those whom we cannot directly see: that is, the Rei of civic virtue and positive social contribution.

    In modern society, although we increasingly see and hear of actions that are lacking in the spirit of Rei, those engaged in Judo training more than anybody else should cultivate the fundamental attitude of Rei in the dojo. Without allowing Rei to diminish even a little, it is incumbent on us to continue holding in esteem its spirit in the course of our daily lives. I hope that this will become a model for society.

    Reference: Shinichi OIMATSU, "Japanese Budo: Judo"

    Judo and Rei - Etiquette
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/courtesy/etiquette/

    Shinichi OIMATSU wrote:The spirit and protocols of Rei are one of the fundamental aspects when learning Judo (i.e. Seiryoku-Zenyo and Jita-Kyoei) in the dojo. At the same time, Rei also becomes indispensable in one's daily life.

    As described in the "Judo Competition Etiquette" rules that were enacted in 1967:

    Upon the first meeting of the contestants, the match will begin with a Rei (bow) as a demonstration that each recognises the character of the other person, and is showing respect towards them. More than just a way for people to associate with each other, the spirit of Rei serves as a system to preserve social order, and Reiho (etiquette) are the protocols that represent it. Practitioners who learn Seiryoku-Zenyo and Jita-Kyoei deepen their appreciation of this spirit of Rei, but it is important that they outwardly display proper etiquette as a manifestation of this.

    In the Kodokan, the spirit of Rei is afforded great significance, and we emphasise the importance of etiquette as a representation of this spirit. In Judo practice or competition, the protagonists look to defeat each other as they grapple. If the spirit of Rei is lost, the encounter descends into a violent struggle, a fight, and the possibility to learn anything of any value falls by the wayside. It is easy to become excited and resort to unscrupulous behaviour when obsessed with victory or defeat. However, Judo bouts provide an important opportunity for forging one's mind and body through keeping calm and reflecting on the spirit of Rei to maintain self-control.

    Etiquette, otherwise known as Reiho, is the physical manifestation of the spirit of Rei. Zarei (seated bow) and Ritsurei (standing bow) are usually taught in the dojo. These two types of Reiho are the focus of instruction, but they are not everything. As Reiho is the method of expressing the spirit of Rei, it is important to understand that this spirit must not be lacking, notwithstanding of the situation, time, or way it is expressed. When interacting with others, one judges the situation and acts in a specific way. You must ask yourself whether you are truly representing the Judo ideal and the spirit of Rei. The point being, there is a difference between merely complying with the forms of Reiho, and performing it the true spirit that underlies it.

    After every bow, reflect on the spirit with which it was executed. Let us strive to do correct and polite Rei, brimming with sincerity. With the first Rei in a Judo practice, you and your opponent join as partners, and the greeting expressed means, "Let's start to refine ourselves together through this training". The Rei at the end of practice is an expression of gratitude: "Thank you for being my partner." Rei performed in the dojo, it can be said, should be observed at all times in order to enact the spirit of Jita-Kyoei in one's everyday life.

    Reference: Shinichi OIMATSU, "Japanese Budo: Judo"


    Ricebale

    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Ricebale on Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:15 am




    Sponsored content

    Re: The practical side of rei, reishiki, reigi, reihō, sahō, etc.

    Post by Sponsored content Today at 10:49 am


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:49 am