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    Deep Entry/Pivot Front vs. Back Entry/Foot in-front kuzushi

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    Deep Entry/Pivot Front vs. Back Entry/Foot in-front kuzushi

    Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:35 am

    For my first post, I like to discuss two different entry methods in seoi nage. The first YouTube video shows Toshikiko Koga demonstrating a morote-seoi-nage in a standard ai-yotsu stance. The second video shows a video done by NHK:



    In this video, Koga is well known for his entry foot/tsukuri This is similar to the “pivot front entry” method shown here:



    This is how current Judoka do most of there throwing As shown in this picture.



    Here is the video where the entry foot differs from the first example:  




    This video shows a direct contrast in the entry. The foot is positioned near Tori’s right foot rather on Uke’s left foot (which is the basic method).

    IMO, the latter has a much better entry compare to the former. I tried this using with a partner doing uchikomi and I find the second is much more easier and more effective compare to the original entry.

    What are your thoughts?

    jkw

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2013-01-04

    Re: Deep Entry/Pivot Front vs. Back Entry/Foot in-front kuzushi

    Post by jkw on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:54 am

    The second version you show is the 'standard' version of seoi-nage. It is commonly taught that the first foot steps to/near the top of an isosceles triangle formed by uke's two feet. Here is a good demonstration -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KlLPsU8-ds

    As with all waza, the finer details will need to be adjusted depending on your partner (tall, short, heavy etc...)

    Koga's seoi-nage is usually considered a variation, used for specific situations.

    For morote seoi-nage, I think the bigger confusion is over the proper use of tsurite.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Deep Entry/Pivot Front vs. Back Entry/Foot in-front kuzushi

    Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:15 am

    jkw wrote:The second version you show is the 'standard' version of seoi-nage. It is commonly taught that the first foot steps to/near the top of an isosceles triangle formed by uke's two feet.


    - I know that's that basic version of the entry foot in some te-waza. The big difference is the approach. In the NHK version, Tori's entry foot steps "outside" the isosceles triangle, not beside Uke's front foot. This action causes Uke's body to move forward rather than Tori coming towards him. Also, if you notice the spin of Tori in the video, he turns like a top.

    Thanks for the video BTW.

    Ben Reinhardt

    Posts : 790
    Join date : 2012-12-28
    Location : Bonners Ferry, Idaho, USA

    Re: Deep Entry/Pivot Front vs. Back Entry/Foot in-front kuzushi

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:41 am

    Guest wrote:
    jkw wrote:The second version you show is the 'standard' version of seoi-nage. It is commonly taught that the first foot steps to/near the top of an isosceles triangle formed by uke's two feet.


    - I know that's that basic version of the entry foot in some te-waza. The big difference is the approach. In the NHK version, Tori's entry foot steps "outside" the isosceles triangle, not beside Uke's front foot. This action causes Uke's body to move forward rather than Tori coming towards him. Also, if you notice the spin of Tori in the video, he turns like a top.

    Thanks for the video BTW.

    So, the NHK video (I think), the last one, is of Kenichiro Agemizu, Tokai University. I've commented on this one before, as I actually did Judo with him for over a year.

    To sum up, the point that Kenichiro is making in most of that video is that a common flaw is to get too close to uke initially. In other words, as you point out, uke goes towards tori rather than vice versa.

    Getting too close is a standard and common error. Of course, there are different entry methods for all throws, but he is showing basic judo. Koga entry method would be an example of a more advanced method that he modified for himself, to go along with his gripping, and unique body composition/strength.

    To elaborate, the way I put is that uke goes to tori, not vice versa. The standard entry of putting your right foot in front of tori right foot is OK, it's better if it'w out in front of his foot. Beginners commonly get too close. No kuzushi/momentum is generated, and they end up lifting and dropping uke instead of tipping him/her and rolling uke forward (to throw). Why fight gravity by lifting if you can avoid it ?

    Tori also needs space to turn in, and getting too close closes that space too soon. O Goshi is an even better example of the "lift and drop" sort of error that is so common.



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