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    jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

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    medo

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by medo on Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:26 am

    and then we have a professor....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoLjjMGKHgg

    medo

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by medo on Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:09 am

    NBK wrote:
    finarashi wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    medo wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s

    Similar to my experience with Aikido possibly an example of a social club Aikido player been doing Aikido many years but never got past that beginner stage!!
    I rather enjoyed that - probably more than Barry the aikidoka!  I wonder if he intentionally didn't attack the judoka's wrist.
    Maybe one reason is that Judoka spends large part of their practice time with grip fighting.  Aikidoka is used to get a grip and have the uke maintain that grip throughout the move. i.e. old fashioned aikidoka that did judo too were different.

    More philosophical point; what is the relationship with hurting your opponent? You speak of wrist locks. Wrist locks are banned in Judo due to possibility of resisting opponent getting hurt. IMHO Judo tries to eliminate all techniques with which you can cause permanent damage to your opponent. In Judo randori you are frowned if you hurt your opponent. in competition many slight moves actually cause pain.

    Second philosophical point; how much hurting / pain is involved in modern aikido practice? I don't know! If I read some books then the answer is of similar level than in Judo, but ....

    Again I have deep respect with aikido and the pondering is more in line of how we now practice it.
    First point: my assumption was that the aikidoka could use his standard attacks in such a match.  That means wrist locks.

    I was recently rereading Harrison's 1905 'The Complete Kao Jiu-jutsu' rules, and noted the rules for judo / jujutsu versus boxing specified that the judoka could use all his techniques.  At the time, that included finger and wrist locks.  

    Second: the level of pain really depends on the aikido style and dojo, the individual tori, etc.  In something hard like Yôshinkai, you better learn quickly to respond to joint locks or you can get a very painful locks.  Of course, the response herds you towards the throw, as it starts with pain avoidance.  The practical side is of course that an unaware opponent would be seriously injured, with sprained or broken wrists, or broken shoulders from the fall.  


    Something like Akikai is typically much more gentle, guiding to a smooth conclusion, and only builds up to frenetic action with advanced practitioners.



    Talking wrist locks

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=105&v=Etvn0wmBkaU

    any relation to Aikido?

    I feel that a competitive at a reasonable standard Judoka would have developed grip and forearm strength far greater than the average Aikido practitioner unless the Judoka does a full beginners lung at the Aikidoka unlikely wrist locks would be effective the Judoka would just snatch his wrist back.
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    NBK

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by NBK on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:31 am

    medo wrote:
    Talking wrist locks

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=105&v=Etvn0wmBkaU

    any relation to Aikido?

    I feel that a competitive at a reasonable standard Judoka would have developed grip and forearm strength far greater than the average Aikido practitioner unless the Judoka does a full beginners lung at the Aikidoka unlikely wrist locks would be effective the Judoka would just snatch his wrist back.
    Very much like aikido, and many more techniques, I bet, than you're likely to find in historic Chin Na (but not my field). In fact I feel certain, without evidence or feeling the need to seek evidence, there's a lot of aikido influence in this set. There's always bleedover from other arts; I stopped looking as it become obvious to me that all arts borrow from each other. And the influence of Japan throughout Asia and as a center of commerce and education in Asia for the last 100 years means that a lot of people learned a lot of Japanese martial arts and took them home.

    But with decent aikido you'd have more emphasis on a decent taisabki / body posture/movement than the Chin Na master. I'll teach a number of these same techniques today in Nihon Jûjutsu, but will correct anyone who moves so out of balance as this gent. (With the exception of the finger locks - my sensei had little regard for them.) www.nihonjujutsu.com is a form of pre-war aikibudô taught by Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Tomiki Kenji sensei, and correct body movement was core to the art.

    Certainly the average, well-trained judoka (a contradiction in terms?) has well developed grip and balance. If some block of a guy like Billc grabs me, subtle movement doesn't get his wrist into the proper position to manipulate. But if I can start the wrist motion, Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility in his wrist (from long years of that training), and if you can get past that initial resistance, wrist techniques can be very effective.

    But Billc, utilizing the subtlety of judo (which is, after all, the topic of the OP), will adjust slightly when I make a wrist attack. He'll drop his center of gravity slightly, tuck his elbow just so, while being careful not to lose his balance, and shrug off a subtle wrist attack. So, I'll be forced to use a much larger motion against him than against the largely compliant, out of balance opponent uke in the video above. Maybe the primary attack will fail but the act of resistance gives another opening - that's aiki.

    Most well trained judoka are not affected by low level aikidoka techniques, and often neither knows why. Tomiki sensei himself thought that no one should study aikido before ten years of good judo training, to establish correct posture and taisabaki.

    NBK
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    NBK

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by NBK on Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:21 pm

    medo wrote:and then we have a professor....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoLjjMGKHgg

    I posted that on Facebook some time ago. Nice intro with about 3x the yakking required to make the points.

    NBK
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    NBK

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by NBK on Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:31 pm

    medo wrote:Here's an interesting guy, British to.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VOb2YBBr7E

    It does not look like Aikido to me more Jujutsu with the Atemi?

    The titles interesting.......

    Mostly basic grips and counters with a substantial amount of thuggery. If that's standard procedure, no wonder he'd been arrested twice.

    Not much aikido in evidence to my way of thinking. That doesn't mean strikes don't exist in aikido.

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by medo on Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:02 pm

    NBK wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Talking wrist locks

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=105&v=Etvn0wmBkaU

    any relation to Aikido?

    I feel that a competitive at a reasonable standard Judoka would have developed grip and forearm strength far greater than the average Aikido practitioner unless the Judoka does a full beginners lung at the Aikidoka unlikely wrist locks would be effective the Judoka would just snatch his wrist back.
    Very much like aikido, and many more techniques, I bet, than you're likely to find in historic Chin Na (but not my field).  In fact I feel certain, without evidence or feeling the need to seek evidence, there's a lot of aikido influence in this set.  There's always bleedover from other arts; I stopped looking as it become obvious to me that all arts borrow from each other.  And the influence of Japan throughout Asia and as a center of commerce and education in Asia for the last 100 years means that a lot of people learned a lot of Japanese martial arts and took them home.  

    But with decent aikido you'd have more emphasis on a decent taisabki / body posture/movement than the Chin Na master.  I'll teach a number of these same techniques today in Nihon Jûjutsu, but will correct anyone who moves so out of balance as this gent.  (With the exception of the finger locks - my sensei had little regard for them.)   www.nihonjujutsu.com is a form of pre-war aikibudô taught by Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Tomiki Kenji sensei, and correct body movement was core to the art.    

    Certainly the average, well-trained judoka (a contradiction in terms?) has well developed grip and balance.  If some block of a guy like Billc grabs me, subtle movement doesn't get his wrist into the proper position to manipulate.  But if I can start the wrist motion, Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility in his wrist (from long years of that training), and if you can get past that initial resistance, wrist techniques can be very effective.
     
    But Billc, utilizing the subtlety of judo (which is, after all, the topic of the OP), will adjust slightly when I make a wrist attack.  He'll drop his center of gravity slightly, tuck his elbow just so, while being careful not to lose his balance, and shrug off a subtle wrist attack.  So, I'll be forced to use a much larger motion against him than against the largely compliant, out of balance opponent uke in the video above.  Maybe the primary attack will fail but the act of resistance gives another opening - that's aiki.  

    Most well trained judoka are not affected by low level aikidoka techniques, and often neither knows why.  Tomiki sensei himself thought that no one should study aikido before ten years of good judo training, to establish correct posture and taisabaki.  

    NBK

    Thats probably why my adventures with Aikidoka have left me with negative experiences, only met social club "I grade myself" dan grades that have not done 10yrs in Judo  cheers
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    BillC

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by BillC on Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:27 pm

    NBK wrote: 

    Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility ...


    Hey, we're working on it. You will notice in my latest FB pic I am actually sitting seiza. Two hours ju no kata today (thanks again, Dax); two hours goshin jutsu tomorrow. Pretty soon I won't scream like a little girl when I work out at your dojo Wink


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    icb

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by icb on Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:45 am

    Over my judo journey I've had a few stints of also training in aikido (as well as jujutsu at one stage), and it has been interesting to compare aikido to judo.  As others have pointed out, there is a reasonably large diversity in styles of aikido, so it isn't possible to generalize completely.

    One aikido dojo that I trained at did a style that was quite "hard", with fairly aggressive blocks that bordered on being atemi.  It felt close to training in a traditional jujutsu style and wasn't very subtle.

    At another dojo that I attended for about 6 months, they practiced a "softer" style of aikido that had a big emphasis on tai sabaki.  With the big movements, it didn't appear very subtle.  But the ability of the instructor to use his tai sabaki to unbalance me somewhat, even from a wrist grab, did surprise me, and in that way it maybe had some subtlety.  One could argue that I just had to let go of his wrist for the technique to fail, and thus it wasn't really subtle.  However, he explained that his branch of aikido had the philosophical viewpoint (coming from Zen Buddhism) that the engagement of uke and nage was really about a series of choices.  If uke decides to attack nage, then nage can allow that, or he can decide to narrow down the set of choices allowed to uke to situations that nage is comfortable with.  If uke continues in the attack, then nage will "narrow down the choices" further until uke is subdued (and maybe in pain).  If uke at some stage decides to disengage (e.g., let go of the wrist), then nage is fine with that.

    But I do agree with the OP, that judoka need to develop some subtle ways of gradually breaking uke's balance or entering for a throw in order to stand a chance against a skilled opponent.
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    Kaji

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by Kaji on Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:30 am

    Please allow me to add my two cents.

    My background: Some experience in Judo and Korindo Aikido (not Ueshiba's Aikido), shodan in both.

    The short version of my response to the topic: No, Judo is not more subtle than Aikido when it comes to execution of techniques, at least in Korindo Aikido.

    Problem: Most Aikido that are widely observed are introductory in nature, designed to be practised by beginners for learning basic principles, or just taught by practitioners that are not very knowledgeable and experienced in the discipline. If your sampling of Aikido and its intricacies is limited to that, it would be difficult to see Aikido's level of subtlety.

    First, Aikido stuff common with Judo (nage-waza only):

    1. Managing your own centre of gravity
    2. Dominating your opponent's centre of gravity, aka kuzushi
    3. Tai-sabaki
    4. Efficient mechanics
    5. Use opponent's momentum
    6. Ukemi for breakfalling

    Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only): ***

    1. Sen (initiative)
    2. Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
    3. Don't let them grab you
    4. Combine with Atemi-waza
    5. Combine with Kansetsu-waza
    6. Combine with Shime-waza
    7. Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake

    *** EDIT: Pardon the confusion. I did not intend to mean that these things are not taught in Judo at all. Rather, what I meant and could have explained better is that these concepts and skills are generally not commonly seen in teaching curricula for the average Judoka at a foundational level.

    Short explanation: In the first list Aikido (at least Korindo Aikido anyway) is not any less subtle than Judo. Then on top of that Aikido has a bunch of subtleties in the second list. It is actually arguable that Aikido is a more subtle art than Judo.

    Elaboration on individual points and examples available on demand.

    Also, big thank you to noboru for the video by Nishio Shoji sensei. It provides a much better introduction to Aikido than 99% of the materials out there. Note that what he showed in that video would be representative of the intermediate level of Aikido (not the advanced stuff yet).


    Last edited by Kaji on Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    NBK

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by NBK on Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:43 am

    Hi, Kaji, long time / no see.

    Why do you say these elements are not common in judo?

    "Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):

    Sen (initiative)
    Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
    Don't let them grab you
    Combine with Atemi-waza
    Combine with Kansetsu-waza
    Combine with Shime-waza
    Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake
    "
    Drop the atemi-waza, which is typically only taught in judo kata (which in truth is the same for aikido), and all of the above should be common in well-taught judo.

    Cheers,

    NBK
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    Kaji

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by Kaji on Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:51 am

    Good to see you, NBK, and thanks for being a prolific poster here!

    Yes, they are taught in Judo. I chose my words poorly - what I meant was that they are not focussed on in Judo. Sure, a number of yudansha might explore some of those concepts, but often only in a kata context or outside the mainstream Judo class curriculum.

    In Aikido (the Korindo school anyway) they are taught and trained pretty much right from the start.

    (The exception here is using ukemi proactively to spoil your opponent's kake in a throw. It is a fairly advanced skill, so an Aikidoka usually gets to learn that later. Then again, I have not seen this skill taught or demonstrated in Judo, not explicitly anyway.)

    EDIT: Re atemi, not sure about other Aikido schools, but we do train them outside kata - i.e., in randori, yakusoku geiko, uchi/nage-komi.
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    NBK

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by NBK on Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:42 pm

    Thanks, Kaji.

    There's a lot of discussion regarding atemi-waza (striking techniques).  

    for the sake of discussion, can you equate a judoka jerking or pushing his opponent to interrupt his timing, or to take his balance, to striking?  Korindo Aikido was originally focussed on self-defense somewhat more than most aikido arts, but I think that the judo equivalent is a sharp bump or pull.
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    NBK

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:19 pm

    Incidentally, today at jujutsu practice Sato Tadayuki sensei, the shihan of the Waseda University aikido program, was our guest instructor (he comes once a month or so).  

    The instruction was based on Ko-daore of Koshiki no Kata.  You can see the Kodokan version here (if it doesn't spool to #7 at 3:05sec or so) .

    What the Kodokan video does not stress is the complicated interaction between tori and uke, who doesn't simply melt against uke's outstretched arm, but actually tries to deflect uke's attack to attack with ôgoshi, then has his arm deflected / punched through by tori.  The 'punch' is not a blow against uke, but rather a more subtle extension of tori's arm in a form similar to a strike at a critical point to take advantage of a fleeting weakness in uke's posture and relative position to defeat uke's attack.  
    Fascinating stuff, very effective, but very difficult to describe.  Sato sensei is a pleasure to study with, and brings a unique aikido/jujutsu informed view of some of oldest techniques in judo.


    Last edited by NBK on Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    finarashi

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by finarashi on Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:53 pm

    Kaji wrote:Please allow me to add my two cents.

    ...
    Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):

    1. Sen (initiative)
    2. Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
    3. Don't let them grab you
    4. Combine with Atemi-waza
    5. Combine with Kansetsu-waza
    6. Combine with Shime-waza
    7. Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake

    To me the first 3 are pretty much what was stressed when I trained to become nationally competitive Judoka. There are number of posts about Sen here. It is something that is and has been thought a lot in Judo.

    Maybe kata training is not what the OP is familiar with but e.g. juno-kata utilizes all three combinations. I still like to see kata as part of our Judo teaching and not think Judo as the subset of only those things we teach to colored grades and to those that do competitive Judo. (= 90% of what is found in Judo books)

    I would like to argue that sutemi-waza is what the OP describes as use of ukemi.

    So maybe there is not that much difference. I'd like to think it is more about what one stresses when teaching. But what do I know.


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    Kaji

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by Kaji on Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:09 pm

    NBK wrote:Thanks, Kaji.

    There's a lot of discussion regarding atemi-waza (striking techniques).  

    for the sake of discussion, can you equate a judoka jerking or pushing his opponent to interrupt his timing, or to take his balance, to striking?  Korindo Aikido was originally focussed on self-defense somewhat more than most aikido arts, but I think that the judo equivalent is a sharp bump or pull.
    Striking can indeed be used at the tsukuri/kuzushi and kake stages to interrupt timing, exert force, follow through a throw, etc. but it is more...

    As we all know, a well-timed strike with speed and force can end a fight by itself.

    Also, striking techniques can be executed with tools - weapons, whether proper or improvised - sometimes even at a distance.

    One of our shihan in Korindo Aikido has taught us that even a coin can be used as a weapon in the right hands - a shuriken. When attacked in the dark, using a coin as an atemi weapon is especially potent because of poor visibility. The teaching is that you throw the coin at the attack as soon as you see the white in his eyes, aiming for between his two eyes. Not too early nor too late - apparently this distance/timing is ideal for initiative and breaking the attacker's rhythm. Right after you release your coin you go in for an attack yourself. The coin would have already done its job at effecting kuzushi, whether physical or mental.

    This is just an example of the subtlety we have learned in Korindo Aikido. Again, I reiterate I do not have exposure with other Aikido schools and styles.

    NBK, you may well be correct that Korindo has a greater emphasis on practical self-defence than other Aikido lineages. At the core of Korindo's teaching is 兵法 martial strategy.
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    Kaji

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by Kaji on Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:22 pm

    NBK wrote:Incidentally, today at jujutsu practice Sato Tadayuki sensei, the shihan of the Waseda University aikido program, was our guest instructor (he comes once a month or so).  

    The instruction was based on Ko-daore of Koshiki no Kata.  You can see the Kodokan version here (if it doesn't spool to #7 at 3:05sec or so)
    (...)
    What the Kodokan video does not stress is the complicated interaction between tori and uke, who doesn't simply melt against uke's outstretched arm, but actually tries to deflect uke's attack to attack with ôgoshi, then has his arm deflected / punched through by tori.  The 'punch' is not a blow against uke, but rather a more subtle extension of tori's arm in a form similar to a strike at a critical point to take advantage of a fleeting weakness in uke's posture and relative position to defeat uke's attack.  
    Fascinating stuff, very effective, but very difficult to describe.  Sato sensei is a pleasure to study with, and brings a unique aikido/jujutsu informed view of some of oldest techniques in judo.
    Thank you for sharing this. In Korindo Aikido we also study the Koshiki-no-kata extensively, with painstaking emphasis on action-reaction, kuzushi, ma'ai, etc. In your example of the Ko-daore kata, yes, we would actually start practising it by doing the ôgoshi. The reasoning is that if tori doesn't know what uke was about to do how can tori's technique be correct.

    We would pick one of the many techniques in the Koshiki-no-kata, analyse and dissect it all the way, picking apart all its subtleties. What is interesting is that in the process we remove any ceremonial and symbolic elements that is not necessary for martial application. For example, with Tai we won't bother taking four steps before completing the throw; we would just throw uke right as he tries the belt-grabbing hip throw.

    No, none of us will ever score a medal in any Judo kata competition, but that has never been the point of our study and practice in Korindo. Learn the principles, practise and express them with our minds and bodies and internalise them into your habits and eventually nature, so that you can apply them everywhere else. That is the purpose of kata study and practice in Korindo.
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    Kaji

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    Re: jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

    Post by Kaji on Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:47 pm

    finarashi wrote:
    Kaji wrote:Please allow me to add my two cents.

    ...
    Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):

    1. Sen (initiative)
    2. Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
    3. Don't let them grab you
    4. Combine with Atemi-waza
    5. Combine with Kansetsu-waza
    6. Combine with Shime-waza
    7. Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake

    To me the first 3 are pretty much what was stressed when I trained to become nationally competitive Judoka. There are number of posts about Sen here. It is something that is and has been thought a lot in Judo.

    Maybe kata training is not what the OP is familiar with but e.g. juno-kata utilizes all three combinations. I still like to see kata as part of our Judo teaching and not think Judo as the subset of only those things we teach to colored grades and to those that do competitive Judo. (= 90% of what is found in Judo books)

    I would like to argue that sutemi-waza is what the OP describes as use of ukemi.

    So maybe there is not that much difference. I'd like to think it is more about what one stresses when teaching. But what do I know.
    Hi finarashi - long time no see!

    Without accidentally sounding argumentative, I think your first paragraph exactly illustrate my point. The fact that these concepts are stressed at the nationally competitive environment (implying that before then they were not mainstream) they have essentially been left out of the foundational Judo curriculum, whether intentional or not.

    I do think this is a loss on Judo's subtlety as a discipline with martial arts as its root. In almost any Japanese koryu or gendai budo with a combative emphasis (those that I've seen anyway) sen, ma'ai and te-hodoki are taught to beginners as foundational concepts and skills.

    With your comment on kata, again, the fact that ju-no-kata (and others such as kime-no-kata and koshiki-no-kata) are almost always taught and learned at a much later stage than the novice level again illustrates my point.

    Please don't get me wrong - I do see Judo as a complete package with kata and not just everything that leads directly to shiai. I for one would like to see them being introduced to judoka way before they currently are, possibly even when they are at shodan level. And not as academic exercises either - they should be studied and practised with as much respect and enthusiasm as you do your nagekomi, IMHO.

    About sutemi-waza: using ukemi to effect a throw is nothing new or uncommon in Judo or Korindo Aikido. What I was referring to is spoiling your opponent's throw with your own ukemi technique, before his throw takes effect - i.e., during kake. Example: uke succeeds with his tsukuri and kuzushi for a hip throw - you are now off balance to the front (or diagonal front). He enters in for a throw, establishing hip contact. Now instead of waiting for him to complete kake and then breakfall with a zenpo kaiten ukemi, you do that ukemi before he does the throwing action. You don't need to do a forward somersault; you actually send the same momentum from your hip to uke's hip. In a sense he does the somersaulting for you. You remain standing, having spoiled his throw attempt. He may not fall in a way that scores you an ippon, but he definitely should be stumbling on the mat. Sounds difficult to pull off? Oh yes it's not easy, but not impossible. Another subtle thing in Korindo Aikido.

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