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    Tactics with atemi waza

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    noboru

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    Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by noboru on Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:15 pm

    Here is video from Tenjin Myōshin Ryū heihō (jūjutsu).

    I think that it is some kata from curicullum of this jūjutsu school. We can see some combat situations using jūjutsu with joining of atemi waza + nage waza + jime/katame/kansetsu waza (naming in judo view ...). I found two situations very interesting for me.

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    about time 2:00 - After grapling come kick, then throw, then jime waza
    about time 2:51 - After grapling and strong resistance of opponent in grapling come punch by hand to rip or hip and then is throw with locking
    -------

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=130&v=Cio4BNh2P3E

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    NBK

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by NBK on Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:20 am

    That sort of throw / takedown then choke seems common in Tenjin Shin'yo ryu.
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:19 am

    From my training in Korindo Aikido, it seems to me that atemi-waza can be combined with nage-waza in four ways:

    1. Atemi before nage, for kuzushi - this kuzushi can be in a number of forms: a) physically knocking uke out of balance, b) making uke evade or flinch from the atemi and by doing so unbalances himself, c) creating a distraction - a mental kuzushi, or d) a combination of two or more of the above.

    2. Atemi during kake - e.g. a right-sided osoto-gari: tori's right hand (the tsurite) can be an uppercut to uke's chin; also tori's right leg instead of doing a reap motion can stomp the back of uke's right knee with the heel.

    3. Atemi while uke is thrown in the air - e.g. Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu has a version of the kote-gaeshi where (assuming right-sided) as tori turns her body to the left for the throw she also uses the circular momentum to execute a front kick with her right leg, kicking uke while he is still in the air. As one can imagine the uke would be helpless against the blow. Also it can really disrupt uke's ukemi.

    4. Atemi after the throw, when uke is down on the ground - nothing really new to add here.

    Note that the above can be combined together. It is common - and even more effective - to execute multiple atemi-waza before, during and after a throw.

    And this is not just for taijutsu. There are throwing techniques with weapons such as the bo and jo. It is no surprise that they are often executed with strikes before, during and after.
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    noboru

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    Goju ryu karate

    Post by noboru on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:37 pm

    I have one friend who practices Goju ryu karate. He shows me some bunkai (??? application in pair ???) from their kata's. I was supprised how often they use locks (arm, fingers) and throws. The space is very closest too. Their bunkai looks very nice ( often in sequence blockof attack, atemi waza, kansetcu waza, nage waza - in judo terminology )

    For example-some similar situation (bunkai):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z66a7H9GTP8


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blYxIGHPYTQ


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyBXOiucFpk
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:03 pm

    My understanding is that bunkai is the practice where you take a section of a kata, analyse it and work on its practical applications (possibility with a partner).

    Oh yes, they use a lot of throws and locks in Karate. They just don't always practise them at the beginner level. Most Karate schools with formal kumite bouts, like shiai, do not allow throws and locks therein - possibly resulting in a departure of emphasis from those techniques over time (much like atemi in Judo).

    Now a caveat: I'm not a karateka. I only have experience in Karate in my younger years and more recently studying them from a Korindo Aikido's "kata borrowing" perspective.

    You might find this video interesting:


    My understanding from Korindo Aikido is that bunkai is a necessary bridge between pure kata practice and incorporating the principles and techniques into your randori.

    Meanwhile, in Judo, nothing stops us from doing bunkai with e.g. Ju-no-kata, Koshiki-no-kata or Itsutsu-no-kata.

    In fact, since Korindo Aikido has extensively "borrowed" Koshiki-no-kata in its studies, don't be surprised the next time you see one of them use one of the kata's techniques in their en-no-randori session.
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    NBK

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:32 am

    Kaji wrote:My understanding is that bunkai is the practice where you take a section of a kata, analyse it and work on its practical applications (possibility with a partner).
    .....
    In fact, since Korindo Aikido has extensively "borrowed" Koshiki-no-kata in its studies, don't be surprised the next time you see one of them use one of the kata's techniques in their en-no-randori session.
    Bunkai means analysis; in slang, often 'break it down', meaning to explain the motions of a kata against an unseen opponent into its step by step sequence and rationale.

    Regarding Koshiki no Kata, I've never heard that about Korindo. Would you please expand?

    Thanks

    NBK
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:02 pm

    NBK wrote:Regarding Koshiki no Kata, I've never heard that about Korindo.  Would you please expand?
    First of all, the founder of Korindo Aikido - Hirai Minoru - studied Kito-ryu, amongst other koryu disciplines. I believe this is the origin of practising the Kito-ryu kata in the Korindo curriculum.

    From experience in my classes, we do not perform the kata in its entire sequence. The techniques are always practised separately, and repeatedly. (Of course, some of them are so interlinked we would train one right after the other - for example, Tai and Yume-no-uchi.)

    Some techniques we do not practise at all because of risk of injury.

    In performing the kata techniques, we retain only the elements essential to martial application. For example, we remove the philosophical and symbolic four shuffle steps seen in so many techniques.

    We recognise that the Kito-ryu kata was designed for armoured combatants, but we don't go out of our way to pretend we wear armour or artificially re-create that feeling.

    In some techniques we visualise some of the atemi-waza to be interchangeable with weapon attacks. For example, in Ko-daore tori thrusting his hand with an outstretched arm can be similarly done with a dagger.

    Hey, NBK, we have partially covered this topic in the other thread (http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t2586p30-jjudo-is-more-subtle-than-aikido-and-about-anything-else-you-can-think-of#21290).
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    Jihef

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Jihef on Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:48 pm

    Kaji wrote:Meanwhile, in Judo, nothing stops us from doing bunkai with e.g. Ju-no-kata, Koshiki-no-kata or Itsutsu-no-kata.
    Hmm… Good luck with that. Rolling Eyes

    I would love to hear WDax's opinion on that one.


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    noboru

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    paired judo kata

    Post by noboru on Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:10 pm

    Kaji wrote:Meanwhile, in Judo, nothing stops us from doing bunkai with e.g. Ju-no-kata, Koshiki-no-kata or Itsutsu-no-kata.

    Kaji, I think that paired judo kata are still as "bunkai" in karate. May be I understand your note well.
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:23 am

    Jihef wrote:
    Kaji wrote:Meanwhile, in Judo, nothing stops us from doing bunkai with e.g. Ju-no-kata, Koshiki-no-kata or Itsutsu-no-kata.
    Hmm… Good luck with that. Rolling Eyes

    I would love to hear WDax's opinion on that one.
    Well, you don't have to replicate the exact movement of a kata technique in your application. It is more about applying the principles behind the technique. For example, the uchi-mata in the Nage-no-kata is performed in a certain way - it doesn't mean you have to do exactly the same movement in randori.

    Imagine the next time someone pushes your shoulders and you respond by spinning your body like a top and counter with seoi-nage - isn't that a Ju-no-kata technique?
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:28 am

    noboru wrote:Kaji, I think that paired judo kata are still as "bunkai" in karate. May be I understand your note well.
    If my understanding is correct, the idea of bunkai is more about breaking down a technique from a kata and analysing it in isolation, than whether it is practised in pair.

    In the Ju-no-kata example in my last post, you simply visualising an uke pushing you and you, practising alone, countering with the spinning and seoi-nage is bunkai. Of course, it is also bunkai if you grab a training partner and practise it as a pair.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:37 am

    Kaji wrote:My understanding is that bunkai is the practice where you take a section of a kata, analyse it and work on its practical applications (possibility with a partner).

    Oh yes, they use a lot of throws and locks in Karate. They just don't always practise them at the beginner level.

    My limited experience with karateka is they have bunkai sessions where the instructors shows them that a certain portion of kata is / could be a throw, lock, etc. They then practice that for a few minutes and move on. The throw, lock, etc is never studied in detail nor incorporated into other training. It is certainly not explored through randori / kumite. As a result, the 'bunkai techniques' become no more than party tricks, poorly executed and poorly understood. As I said, that is just my experience and I hope things are different in other parts of the world.
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:21 pm

    DougNZ wrote:My limited experience with karateka is they have bunkai sessions where the instructors shows them that a certain portion of kata is / could be a throw, lock, etc.  They then practice that for a few minutes and move on.  The throw, lock, etc is never studied in detail nor incorporated into other training.  It is certainly not explored through randori / kumite.  As a result, the 'bunkai techniques' become no more than party tricks, poorly executed and poorly understood.  As I said, that is just my experience and I hope things are different in other parts of the world.
    I hear you and feel the pain. I have been to a so-called karate school that did not even do bunkai, at all. Sure they made us practise the kata, but without telling us what the techniques were for.

    Later (but this was still over a decade ago) I went to a decent Goju-ryu school where I understand they do bunkai, but alas because of my busy job I had to stop going to classes.

    It was not until some years later where I started Korindo Aikido, having borrowed karate kata for bunkai and eventual incorporation of their techniques into randori, that I knew how to use these kata and not waste them. The fact that this is a Korindo Aikido school that has in its curriculum a variety of throws, locks, atemi and weaponry meant we could explore them in as much detail as we want.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:17 am

    As an instructor, one has to ask why the old masters thought it important to dream up and implement a new kata. Was it to codify some important pieces of information or was it to fill up the last 30 minutes of class?
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    Kaji

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    Re: Tactics with atemi waza

    Post by Kaji on Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:31 pm

    DougNZ wrote:As an instructor, one has to ask why the old masters thought it important to dream up and implement a new kata.  Was it to codify some important pieces of information or was it to fill up the last 30 minutes of class?
    Allow me to try answering your question by limiting the scope to kata with a lot of atemi-waza, namely the karate kata, and not the Judo and koryu jujutsu kata.

    Just on top of my head and with my rudimentary knowledge of karate kata, I see several reasons why the old masters created the kata and have their students do them.

    Firstly, for the same reasons Judo has the Gokyo and the kata - to codify techniques and principles into a collection that is taught and passed down generation to generation.

    They form part of the curriculum, with a certain learning order for specific reasons, such as how the Gokyo is in an order that makes it easier for uke to perform ukemi.

    But why perform them in a sequence and not as standalone techniques? For easier memorisation and recalling. It is easier to remember a song, with rhyming and repeated lyrics chained together in a flowing manner, than individual sentences.

    But performing them in a sequence is not helpful for learning to fight! Well, that is why bunkai is important, as is practising them with training partners and eventually in a randori setting.

    They are good solo drills. At home without training partners? Arrived at the dojo early? Staying back late at the dojo? No excuse - train!

    That they are solo exercises meant it can be performed at a pace and intensity set by the practitioner, depending on age, fitness, injuries, etc.

    They make good warm-up exercises - self-explanatory, I hope.

    On the occasion that one is asked to demonstrate the discipline, perhaps when alone, they can be performed in an aesthetic way appreciable by people not familiar with martial arts.

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