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    First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

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    noboru

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    First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by noboru on Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:05 am

    EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIPS DRESDEN

    Date: 30 Nov 1934 - 2 Dec 1934
    Place: Dresden, Germany
    Type: European Championships



    Men Results info: http://www.judoinside.com/event/1301/1934_European_Championships_Dresden

    middle
    1 Ralf Lehmann GER
    2 Mitschke GER
    3 Wolfgang Hahn GER
    middleheavy
    1 Walter Wobbe GER
    2 Bruno Zumach GER
    3 Grosse GER
    heavy
    1 Gasch GER
    2 Stefan Dobo Füllop TCH
    3 William GER
    feather
    1 Stenzel GER
    2 Bierschenk GER
    3 Gohmert GER
    U63
    1 Hans Wittwer GER
    2 Kurschner GER
    3 Alois Cigner TCH
    --------------------------------------------
    Hi, I ought few questions and I would like to ask you for help.

    My one friend (from the Czech Republic) drew my attention to a discrepancy with the results of the European Championship in 1934 published in the past in some German books DAS JUDO ABC in 1966 and 1984, the SPORT-RHODE.

    Inconsistency is a heavyweight in the results - 2nd Istfána (Stefan) Fülöp alias S.F.Dobo (Czechoslovakia)
    S.F.Dobo was a Hungarian Jew, but living in Czechoslovakia and starting for Czechoslovakia. In 1942, he died in nazi concentration camp Mauthausen in Austria.

    judoinside source:
    heavy weight
    1st Gasch GER
    2nd Stefan Dobo Füllop TCH
    3rd William GER

    German sources (German books DAS JUDO ABC in 1966 and 1984, the SPOR-RHODE):
    1st Gasch, GER,
    2nd. Barufke, GER,
    3rd William, GER

    The results of other weights are same. Only second place in heavy category is different. Why?

    Do you know someone genuine / real results ME 1934 in Dresden?

    It is possible that the record was later a 2nd place later removed / altered during the Nazi era within the suppression of Jewish culture? Were similar events in the history of German sport?

    Also some Czech sources provides informations about the team competition.
    Team results:
    1. Germany,
    2. Czechoslovakia,
    3. Hungary and Italy

    Unfortunately, there was nothing I could not find about that team competition in this event  - took place and way of matches.

    Thank you for any information or even guidance about where to look, who to ask.


    Last edited by noboru on Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total

    Emanuele2

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by Emanuele2 on Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:22 am

    What were the rules of the contests?

    finarashi

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by finarashi on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:25 am

    You can find probably the most meaningful parts of the rules (in German) from "100 Jahre Jiu-Jitsu /Ju-Jutsu und Judo in Deutschland : Eine Chronik von 1905-2005", by Matschke, Klaus-Dieter and Velte, Herbert (1935 - ), Vierkirchen, Germany, Schramm Sport, 2005, 164p, PB, ISBN 3000161309 at page 60

    1. 5 minute match or shorter if two points
    2. The referee will award the match to the fighter with more points or in case of draw award it based on style and skill (Kampfart)
    3. Points awarded for Throws, Holds, Submissions and Locks
    4. For a throw to score one point it must be known, intentional and result in throwing the opponent mostly on his back
    5. For a submission to score a point the looser must acknowledge his defeat by words or tapping
    6. For a hold to score point the opponent must be held 30 seconds mostly on his back.
    7. For a lock to score point the opponent must be held with straight hand and with known lock so that his shoulders are well below his normal shoulder height.
    11. If a fighter while trying to throw ends three times to the ground then a penalty point is awarded.
    14. Forbidden are
    a) To throw the opponent to his head, shoulder or neck
    b) To twist or bend opponents fingers, wrist, toes, jaw, head and backbone
    c) To apply scissors, pinch, nerve pressure, hit or kick
    d) To grip opponents face or to press it against your own body
    e) To pull your opponent to the ground
    f) To grip sleeves trouseredges



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    noboru

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by noboru on Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:27 pm

    I have the czech book from Stefan Dobo Füllop - Základy Jiu-jitsu from year 1937. There he noted about rules for matches for jiujitsu in Europe. He wrote, that the rules aren't same in Europe and described very similar rules as you wrote. He wrote that the rules are from london's Budokwai.

    Emanuele2

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by Emanuele2 on Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:58 am

    Why is it called ju jitsu and not judo?

    noboru

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    term judo vs. jiujitsu in Czechoslovakia

    Post by noboru on Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:07 am

    In Czechoslovakia the people affected by the book Das Kano JiuJitsu (German edition) since 1909. They saw the benefits of these techniques for self-defense only. Only later, after a visit Jigoro Kano in Prague in year 1936, they began to distinguish between the terms jiujitsu and judo. Jiujitsu (self-defense) vs. Judo (sports competition).

    Reinberger

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    Results of EC 1934, according to an Austrian Newspaper

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:36 am

    noboru,

    the following is a contemporary report about that tournament, that appeared in an Austrian newspaper shortly after the event ("Sport-Tagblatt" from December 6th, 1934):

    The European Championships in Dschiudschitsu.

    The first European Championships in Dschiudschitsu, which were held in Dresden, at a very low level of international participation ended throughout with victories of the representatives of Germany. The results were:

    Featherweight
    1. Stenzel (Berlin, 0 points)
    2. Bierschenk (Leipzig, 2 points)
    3. Gomert (Berlin, 4 points)

    Lightweight
    1. Wittwer (Dresden, 1 point)
    2. Kürschner (Berlin, 2 points)
    3. Eigner (Czechoslovakia, 4 points)

    Middleweight
    1. Lehmann (Berlin, 0 points)
    2. Mietschke (Dresden, 3 points)
    3. Hahn (Berlin, 4 points)

    Light-heavyweight
    1. Wobbe (Breslau, 1 point)
    2. Zummach (Berlin, 2 points)
    3. Große (Berlin, 4 points)

    Heavyweight
    1. Gasch (Berlin, 2 points)
    2. Barufke (Breslau, 3 points)
    3. William (Dresden) and Dobo (Czechoslovakia, 5 points each)

    Nations rating
    1. Germany (28½ points)
    2. Czechoslovakia (1½ points)
    3. Hungary and Latvia (0 points each)



    Perhaps that only one ex-aequo placement for the third place, in the heavyweight division alone, produced the later confusion?

    Also interesting: Obviously, on individual level, lesser points resulted in better ranking, therefore some kind of "minus point"-scoring seems to have been used, while for the nations rating, more points brought the better ranking.


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    noboru

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    Many many thanks.

    Post by noboru on Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:47 pm

    Many many thanks. Lightweight 3.place - right name is Cigner (Alois Cígner)

    Featherweight
    1. Stenzel (Berlin, 0 points)
    2. Bierschenk (Leipzig, 2 points)
    3. Gomert (Berlin, 4 points)

    Lightweight
    1. Wittwer (Dresden, 1 point)
    2. Kürschner (Berlin, 2 points)
    3. Cigner (Czechoslovakia, 4 points)

    Middleweight
    1. Lehmann (Berlin, 0 points)
    2. Mietschke (Dresden, 3 points)
    3. Hahn (Berlin, 4 points)

    Light-heavyweight
    1. Wobbe (Breslau, 1 point)
    2. Zummach (Berlin, 2 points)
    3. Große (Berlin, 4 points)

    Heavyweight
    1. Gasch (Berlin, 2 points)
    2. Barufke (Breslau, 3 points)
    3. William (Dresden) and Dobo (Czechoslovakia, 5 points each)

    Nations rating
    1. Germany (28½ points)
    2. Czechoslovakia (1½ points)
    3. Hungary and Latvia (0 points each)

    Nations rating - there is Latvia (Lettland in austrian source). in some else sources is Italy ... but this results are very same as in czech (Cigner - 3.place, Dobo - 3.place)


    Last edited by noboru on Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

    finarashi

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by finarashi on Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:09 am

    Reinberger wrote:noboru,

    the following is a contemporary report about that tournament, that appeared in an Austrian newspaper shortly after the event ("Sport-Tagblatt" from December 6th, 1934):

    The European Championships in Dschiudschitsu.

    The first European Championships in Dschiudschitsu, which were held in Dresden, at a very low level of international participation ended throughout with victories of the representatives of Germany. The results were:

    Featherweight
    1. Stenzel (Berlin, 0 points)
    2. Bierschenk (Leipzig, 2 points)
    3. Gomert (Berlin, 4 points)

    Lightweight
    1. Wittwer (Dresden, 1 point)
    2. Kürschner (Berlin, 2 points)
    3. Eigner (Czechoslovakia, 4 points)

    Middleweight
    1. Lehmann (Berlin, 0 points)
    2. Mietschke (Dresden, 3 points)
    3. Hahn (Berlin, 4 points)

    Light-heavyweight
    1. Wobbe (Breslau, 1 point)
    2. Zummach (Berlin, 2 points)
    3. Große (Berlin, 4 points)

    Heavyweight
    1. Gasch (Berlin, 2 points)
    2. Barufke (Breslau, 3 points)
    3. William (Dresden) and Dobo (Czechoslovakia, 5 points each)

    Nations rating
    1. Germany (28½ points)
    2. Czechoslovakia (1½ points)
    3. Hungary and Latvia (0 points each)



    Perhaps that only one ex-aequo placement for the third place, in the heavyweight division alone, produced the later confusion?

    Also interesting: Obviously, on individual level, lesser points resulted in better ranking, therefore some kind of "minus point"-scoring seems to have been used, while for the nations rating, more points brought the better ranking.

    Each ippon = 1 point
    Match = 2 points so either 2-0 or 2-1

    The number indicated is IMHO the ippons against. 5-5 would indicate IMHO draw.



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    noboru

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by noboru on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:51 am

    Reinberger wrote:Nations rating
    1. Germany (28½ points)
    2. Czechoslovakia (1½ points)
    3. Hungary and Latvia (0 points each)

    In the austrian source is Lettland (Latvia). Some other source note Italy instead of Latvia. My friend send me EJU documents from year 1938 about EJU members and Latvia/Lettland is missing. Italy is member.

    noboru

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by noboru on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:53 am

    Here are EJU documents from 1938






    Reinberger

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by Reinberger on Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:39 am

    Another report from the event, a little bit different again, regarding the nations rating, but also with Latvia mentioned, this time even with some details about its representative(s).

    Schwedter Tageblatt, 05.12.1934 (the poor translation by me):

    German success at the European championships in Jiu-Jitsu.

    After the difficulties at the beginning of the European championships in Jiu-Jitsu, the same nevertheless found an ending, that is to be called fortunately in every respect. After the opening day and the day of the intermediate round had brought a very well attended hall already, the rooms of the Dresdener Kristall-Palast were filled by a densely packed crowd on the final day. In the battle stood Germany at the first place, Hungary at the second place, and the Czechs at the third. Due to the withdrawal of their strongest fighter, Latvia only was represented by the quick and hard Semming from Riga. Under the numerous guests of honour Mutschmann, the Reichsstatthalter from Saxony could be noticed.


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    noboru

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    team results

    Post by noboru on Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:25 pm

    Reinberger wrote:Another report from the event, a little bit different again, regarding the nations rating, but also with Latvia mentioned, this time even with some details about its representative(s).

    Schwedter Tageblatt, 05.12.1934 (the poor translation by me):

    German success at the European championships in Jiu-Jitsu.

    After the difficulties at the beginning of the European championships in Jiu-Jitsu, the same nevertheless found an ending, that is to be called fortunately in every respect. After the opening day and the day of the intermediate round had brought a very well attended hall already, the rooms of the Dresdener Kristall-Palast were filled by a densely packed crowd on the final day. In the battle stood Germany at the first place, Hungary at the second place, and the Czechs at the third. Due to the withdrawal of their strongest fighter, Latvia only was represented by the quick and hard Semming from Riga. Under the numerous guests of honour Mutschmann, the Reichsstatthalter from Saxony could be noticed.

    Thank you a lot.

    It looks like, that there was team shiai's really and not any country ranking... Info from finarashi about point meaning points to the same.

    I found czech sources from year 1936 - text from Mr. Frantisek Smotlacha (head of czechoslovak jiujitsu - he wrote 2.second place for Czechoslovakia in team, 3.place for Alois Cigner and S.F.Dobo). It is little bit jigsaw puzzle :-)

    mc_judo

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by mc_judo on Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:22 pm

    noboru wrote:
    Reinberger wrote:Nations rating
    1. Germany (28½ points)
    2. Czechoslovakia (1½ points)
    3. Hungary and Latvia (0 points each)

    In the austrian source is Lettland (Latvia). Some other source note Italy instead of Latvia. My friend send me EJU documents from year 1938 about EJU members and Latvia/Lettland is missing. Italy is member.


    In his "Storia del Judo" Livio Toschi, historian of the Italian Judo Federation, wrote:

    "Nel 1934 si riparlò di judo anche a Genova e a Milano grazie alle esibizioni curate dal maestro Francesco Cao. Quell’anno a Dresda si disputò un campionato, impropriamente definito «europeo», visto che furono solo 4 le nazioni in gara: Cecoslovacchia, Germania, Lettonia e Ungheria."

    which approximately means:

    "Judo in 1934 in Genoa and in Milan thanks to the exhibitions of Master Francesco Cao. That year in Dresden was played a championship, improperly called 'European', since they were only 4 nations competed: Czechoslovakia, Germany, Latvia and Hungary."

    Thanks for this interesting topic.

    Michele

    Reinberger

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by Reinberger on Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:21 am

    You're welcome, Michele, and thanks for the additional information regarding Italy.

    BTW, here's a press-photo from that tournament:
    Haarlem's Dagblad, December 3rd, 1934 wrote:

    The sportive fight.
    The German Wobbe (bottom) and the Hungarian Rafadits fight each other in Jiu-Jitsu at Dresden.

    While I myself never used those, I remember very well those types of soft shoes (called "Mattenschuhe" or "mat shoes"), incidentally, as they even were not unusual (and permitted, but not made mandatory in the old competition regulations) in Austria and Germany, when I commenced training in the early seventies, until later, in the eighties. I think, they had been adopted from wrestling in the past and I believe, they are still used in Germany in a certain organization.


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    NBK

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by NBK on Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:31 am

    finarashi wrote:You can find probably the most meaningful parts of the rules (in German) from "100 Jahre Jiu-Jitsu /Ju-Jutsu und Judo in Deutschland : Eine Chronik von 1905-2005", by Matschke, Klaus-Dieter and Velte, Herbert (1935 - ), Vierkirchen, Germany, Schramm Sport, 2005, 164p, PB, ISBN 3000161309 at page 60

    1. 5 minute match or shorter if two points
    2. The referee will award the match to the fighter with more points or in case of draw award it based on style and skill (Kampfart)
    3. Points awarded for Throws, Holds, Submissions and Locks
    4. For a throw to score one point it must be known, intentional and result in throwing the opponent mostly on his back
    5. For a submission to score a point the looser must acknowledge his defeat by words or tapping
    6. For a hold to score point the opponent must be held 30 seconds mostly on his back.
    7. For a lock to score point the opponent must be held with straight hand and with known lock so that his shoulders are well below his normal shoulder height.
    11. If a fighter while trying to throw ends three times to the ground then a penalty point is awarded.
    14. Forbidden are
    a) To throw the opponent to his head, shoulder or neck
    b) To twist or bend opponents fingers, wrist, toes, jaw, head and backbone
    c) To apply scissors, pinch, nerve pressure, hit or kick
    d) To grip opponents face or to press it against your own body
    e) To pull your opponent to the ground
    f) To grip sleeves trouseredges

    This is an interesting item.
    '7. For a lock to score point the opponent must be held with straight hand and with known lock so that his shoulders are well below his normal shoulder height.'
    So, this is a standing lock. No time given. I wonder if they meant 30 sec, too, or judge's discretion?

    Reinberger

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:48 am

    Three more interesting facts I found, regarding that event:

    1. On December 5th, the "Badischer Beobachter" reported, as well as the "Karlsruher Tagblatt" one day later, that "the second and third places also were sized almost throughout by Germans, only the Czechs Cigner and Dedo (sic) achieved third places in the light- and heavyweight respectively".

    2. On November 23rd, 1934 the "Badische Presse" reported, that fighters from eight nations had registered for the First European Jiu-Jitsu championships in Dresden: Germany, England, Romania, Italy, Latvia, Hungary, Switzerland and Austria.

    On November 28th, 1934 the same newspaper, naming the German participants, doesn't mention Switzerland, but mentions Sweden instead, and therefore 8 nations in total again.

    Czechoslovakia wasn't mentioned both times.

    What happened to the starters from the missing nations England, Romania, Italy, Switzerland/Sweden and Austria? Didn't they appear? Were this the "difficulties at the beginning of the European championships", the "Schwedter Tageblatt" mentioned on December 5th?


    3. Also on December 5th, 1934 the "Badischer Beobachter" reported from a meeting of the "European Union for Judo" in Dresden, where the "question of participating at Olympia 1936" was discussed. The president of the union was "authorised to negotiate the inclusion of Jiu-Jitsu into the Olympic program with the ICC" (I think "IOC" was meant).

    In issue No 4 from April 1935, the "Estonian Sportspage" also reported about that "Jiu-Jitsu Olympic plans", and that 15 nations at least were expected to participate. Of concern was "the harmonization of regulations", "because of the different Jiu-Jitsu schools and teachers", and as "different regulations are implemented in almost every country". Obviously Hungary and Switzerland (was there an official of Switzerland in Dresden, at least?) had campaigned for changes in the regulations, and convergence with Japanese regulations. "The Germans, however, argued that these regulations are very close to those of Japan and did not accept the amendment."


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    Reinberger

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    Re: First European championship Jiu-jitsu 1934 Dresden - Germany

    Post by Reinberger on Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:28 am

    Meanwhile I was able to clarify some of the occurring questions, due to a special report in "Reichssportblatt", the "Official organ of the 'Reichssportführer' ", which was Hans von Tschammer und Osten. Among other things, the following facts and "official assumptions" can be gleaned from this source:

    - The Germans speculated, that "... in Jiu-Jitsu, Germany has such a lead over the European nations, that one country or another may have refrained from deployments, due to the hopelessness of even their best against the Germans."

    - "In one case, however, the reasons for the non-appearance of a registered team were different: the departure from their country to Germany had been denied for the four Austrians! We would have liked to see the most promising Viennese Chraska fighting in the Featherweight."

    - All in all, obviously two Hungarians, two Latvians, two Czechs and nineteen Germans participated at this first European Jiu-Jitsu (Judo) Championships.

    - "From the six fighters, representing foreign countries in Dresden, only the two Czechs could place at third places. Under such circumstances, it's naturally unfounded, to give full sporting value to the nations-rating, awarded in addition to the individual titles."

    - "It also has to be added, that the two Czechs, the Heavyweight Dobro (sic), with more than 220 pounds the heaviest fighter at the competition at all, and the dexterous lightweight Zigner (sic) were the most skilful of the foreigners."

    - The article is accompanied by another photo, this time from the fight Mitschke (Germany) versus Vincent (Hungary):

    - In another article of the same issue, the "Reichssportblatt" also reports about the meeting of the "European Union for Judo", and the intentions to have Jiu-Jitsu included at the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, with the help of the German Olympic Committee and the World Federation, headed by Kanō Jigorō, which have to be negotiated. The article further says, that the meeting was also attended by representatives of nations, that didn't participate at the tournament (Switzerland and Italy). Romania and Yugoslavia were represented by proxies.


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    noboru

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    informations from czechoslovak participant Alois Cigner

    Post by noboru on Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:00 pm

    Yeasterday I found czech arcticle from Mr. Alois Cigner from year 1950. He participated on the 1. European champ. in Dresden and wrote some informations:

    - the german organizers payed travel from German border and accomodations.
    - czech judokas stayed in the best dresdens hotel Bellevue
    - rules for match:3 rounds x 3 minutes, end of match (margin 3 points (one point is throwing opponnent to back or side or holding 30 seconds), timeout, giving up armlock or giving up strangling)
    - Germany had 4 competitors in each weight category
    - there were some japanese judokas only as observers. They did any judo demonstration. Alois Cigner mentioned, that it was first when he saw right judo
    - not was any team competetion matches. Team competetion was nation ranking only via results of individual matches

    Scoring from individual matches: draw = -1 point , loss =-2 points . Cigner wrote that when anyone had score -5 points, it was his cancelation from contest.
    I think that this explanation is related with results from Reinberger.

    Cigner remembered that he had one win, two draws, one loss = -4 points = 3.place in category Lightweight to 62,5 kg
    First day draw in match against Kürschner from Berlin
    Second day win in match against Juttner from Hamburg
    Next loss in match with against Wittner from Dresden (loss 1:3), Wittner was later winner of this weight, he was very strong, he was champion in wrestling too
    Last match was draw in match against Cartsburg from Berlin

    Weight categories: 56 kg, 62.5 kg, 70 kg, 80 kg, +80 kg


    Last edited by noboru on Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:07 am; edited 5 times in total

    noboru

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    Original czech article from Alois Cigner about 1 EM in Dresden

    Post by noboru on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:29 pm

    Original czech article from Alois Cigner from year 1950.


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