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    judo and ju jitsu

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    michi

    Posts : 30
    Join date : 2015-03-16

    judo and ju jitsu

    Post by michi on Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:44 pm

    I see now in Canada the national organization is seeking volunteers to form a ju jitsu committee of sorts. Apparently the aim of such a committee would be to help incorporate ju jitsu into judo clubs and have them registered and governed by judo canada. In the very brief document outlining this intention it makes reference to having the same role with ju jitsu as is seen in France. Does anyone o the form know much of how ju jitsu is incorporated into judo in France ?
    Also I'm interested to know if judo canada is seeking to bring into its fold traditional Japanese ju jitsu (as the spelling implies to me) or are they looking at the larger and growing Brazilian jiu jitsu ? Perhaps both ?
    Any judo Canada insiders care to weigh in ?
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    Y-Chromosome

    Posts : 135
    Join date : 2015-06-02
    Location : The Great White North

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:33 am

    They have been doing this for a while in Quebec, mostly following the French model.  I've attended some clinics (well... one clinic) and read a bit about it.
    I'm not really comfortable with the whole thing.  For one, the provenance of the techniques does not seem well documented.  If they are calling something jujutsu then it ought to be derived from well-established and well documented Koryu roots.  As best as I can determine, they are bringing the stuff from France and who knows where the French got it.  (would love it if anyone can elucidate me.)
    Secondly, it is being implemented as an entirely separate dan-ranking system, parallel to the judo promotion system.  This raises the question as to whether it's appropriate for a judo association to promote "jujutsu" when the founder of judo took deliberate pains to make his creation distinct from jujutsu.
    I would be much more comfortable if they just called it "self-defence oriented judo" or some such description, which would eliminate most of my concerns and objections.  I would also prefer to see self-defence oriented waza added to the regular dan grading syllabus or offered as optional enrichment material, over the creation of an entirely separate dan system.
    Just my opinion.  There is material on the Judo Quebec web site about the program.
    http://www.judo-quebec.qc.ca
    Click "Judo Jujutsu" on the menu bar on the left for options. (Désolé, en français seulement.)
    Gérald Poirier has his email on there if you want the real low-down.  His English is excellent if you aren't comfortable communicating in French.

    Lurker

    Posts : 31
    Join date : 2013-05-23

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by Lurker on Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:29 am

    I have known Gerald for years, and he is very competent. If the JC Committee has his involvement then the process will be done well.
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    michi

    Posts : 30
    Join date : 2015-03-16

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by michi on Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:10 am

    I'm certainly not critical of this ju jitsu committee. I'm simply interested in knowing more about what it's intended purpose is
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    Y-Chromosome

    Posts : 135
    Join date : 2015-06-02
    Location : The Great White North

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:26 am

    Purpose is most likely to take the Judo Quebec program national.
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    NBK

    Posts : 1143
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by NBK on Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:17 am

    Y-Chromosome wrote:They have been doing this for a while in Quebec, mostly following the French model.  I've attended some clinics (well... one clinic) and read a bit about it.
    I'm not really comfortable with the whole thing.  For one, the provenance of the techniques does not seem well documented.  If they are calling something jujutsu then it ought to be derived from well-established and well documented Koryu roots.  As best as I can determine, they are bringing the stuff from France and who knows where the French got it.  (would love it if anyone can elucidate me.)
    Secondly, it is being implemented as an entirely separate dan-ranking system, parallel to the judo promotion system.  This raises the question as to whether it's appropriate for a judo association to promote "jujutsu" when the founder of judo took deliberate pains to make his creation distinct from jujutsu.
    I would be much more comfortable if they just called it "self-defence oriented judo" or some such description, which would eliminate most of my concerns and objections.  I would also prefer to see self-defence oriented waza added to the regular dan grading syllabus or offered as optional enrichment material, over the creation of an entirely separate dan system.......

    snip
    "..... If they are calling something jujutsu then it ought to be derived from well-established and well documented Koryu roots.  As best as I can determine, they are bringing the stuff from France and who knows where the French got it. ...."
    Why does it have to be documented from koryu jujutsu?
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    Y-Chromosome

    Posts : 135
    Join date : 2015-06-02
    Location : The Great White North

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:09 pm

    NBK wrote:
    snip
    "..... If they are calling something jujutsu then it ought to be derived from well-established and well documented Koryu roots.  As best as I can determine, they are bringing the stuff from France and who knows where the French got it. ...."
    Why does it have to be documented from koryu jujutsu?

    Doesn't have to be, but to my mind it ought to be.

    I just find it disingenuous to call something jujutsu if it's not koryu or derived from koryu. Preferably directly derived or at worst indirectly derived with clear lineage. The Japanese developed jujutsu, nurtured it, took pride in it, at least up until the Meiji era. Some have continued the practice which can be considered a national heritage. To adopt the name jujutsu is to profit from the established reputation of same. When a Judo organization does this, they also lend it the reputation for competence and credibility that judo has earned over some 130 years or so of history.

    Now judo waza including all the gokyo, Shimmeisho and kata have a clear heritage and there are documentable lines of transmission leading back to the Kodokan to establish a valid judo instructor's competence.
    The provenance of what France and now Quebec are calling jujutsu is less clear. Doesn't mean its bad, but its not necessarily jujutsu, nor is a judo organisation per-se automatically competent to propagate anything other than judo.

    DougNZ

    Posts : 405
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: judo and ju jitsu

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:09 pm

    I wonder what the Canadian Jiu Jitsu Council, whose original body was formed in 1963, thinks of this move?

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