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    Kodansha / roku dan and above

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    Stevens

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    Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Stevens on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:43 am

    We use the name Kodansha for 5th dan and higher, but why first a promotion to 6th dan to wear a red-white Kohaku obi? Did Jigoro Kano invented this or is this of the Kodokan-specialists after his dead? We know that Kano came up with a Kohaku-obi for 6th dan and above.

    Second thing: were can i find that women wear a red belt at 8th dan level instead of 9th dan level like man?
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:31 am

    I believe that Joshi 8th Dan holders now wear a Kohaku-obi.
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    Stevens

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Stevens on Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:32 am

    Thankx Jonesy! There must be someone who knows about it, please let us know! It sounds so strange and me and my students wants to know!
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:45 am

    Sometimes in Japanese culture change takes place by osmosis rather than decree.
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    Stevens

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Stevens on Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:24 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Sometimes in Japanese culture change takes place by osmosis rather than decree.

    Ok, for me a little vague, but i can do something with it. Thanks!

    Anatol

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Anatol on Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:06 pm

    We use the name Kodansha for 5th dan and higher,


    Judo is only one part in the bigger picture/frame of Bu Do (martial way), Bu Gei and Bu Jutsu (martial techniques) and Gei Do (art way).

    Ranks in Bu Gei (Martial Arts):

    Mu Dan Sha (person without grade)

    Yu Dan Sha (person with grade)

    - shoden (shodan and nidan) : initial transmission

    - chuden (sandan and yondan): middle transmission


    Ko Dan Sha (person with high grade)

    - Ren Shi (godan and rokudan): expert of technique and practice

    - Kyo Shi (nanadan and hachidan) : expert of technique and practice and expert of the fundamentals and principles

    - Han Shi (kudan and judan): Highest model/embodyment of the School/Way/Art


    All this has to do with:

    - reflecting confucian values, ranks and hierarchy in society

    - development of learning  and skills ("shu ha ri" and "omote and ura")

    - development of ability for teaching

    - secrets of transmission in a school: okuden(inner, secret techniques)  and kuden (oral transmission) and densho (scrolls)

    - menkyo system for license to teach (menkyo kaiden as "total transmission" with kuden and densho)


    but why first a promotion to 6th dan to wear a red-white Kohaku obi?
    Kano introduced the dan belt system with black, red/white and red in 1930.

    1. - 5. dan = black
    6. - 9. dan = red and white
    10. dan = red

    The two first living red belts were Nagaoka and Isogai in 1937.

    In my opinion it would have been more coherent, if Kano would  have started Kohaku belt with Godan.


    Last edited by Anatol on Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:13 am; edited 10 times in total
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    Stevens

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Stevens on Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:21 pm

    Thank you!
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    NBK

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by NBK on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:01 am

    Anatol wrote:
    We use the name Kodansha for 5th dan and higher,
    Judo is only one part in the bigger picture/frame of Bu Do (martial way), Bu Gei and Bu Jutsu (martial techniques) and Gei Do (art way).
    Ranks in Bu Gei (Martial Arts):
    Mu Dan Sha (person without grade)
    Yu Dan Sha (person with grade)
    [******
    - shoden (shodan and nidan) : initial transmission
    - chuden (sandan and yondan): middle transmission
    *******]

    Ko Dan Sha (person with high grade)
    [********
    - Ren Shi (godan and rokudan): expert of technique and practice
    - Kyo Shi (nanadan and hachidan) : expert of technique and practice and expert of the fundamentals and principles
    - Han Shi (kudan and judan): Highest model/embodyment of the School/Way/Art
    ******]

    All this has to do with:

    - reflecting confucian values, ranks and hierarchy in society

    - development of learning  and skills ("shu ha ri" and "omote and ura")

    - development of ability for teaching

    - secrets of transmission in a school: okuden(inner, secret techniques)  and kuden (oral transmission) and densho (scrolls)

    - menkyo system for license to teach (menkyo kaiden as "total transmission" with kuden and densho)


    but why first a promotion to 6th dan to wear a red-white Kohaku obi?
    Kano introduced the dan belt system with black, red/white and red in 1930.

    1. - 5. dan = black
    6. - 9. dan = red and white
    10. dan = red

    The two first living red belts were Nagaoka and Isogai in 1937.

    In my opinion it would have been more coherent, if Kano would  have started Kohaku belt with Godan.
    Anatol,

    thanks for this.

    in the sections I edited above to highlight with [******] those terms are not used in the Kodokan.

    The terms renshi / kyooshi / hanshi were used in the Dai Nihon Butokukai and in some of the older martial arts organizations postwar (notably the International Martial Arts Federation, and the new Butokukai). These are not ranks as such, but rather shogo, honorific titles that have been associated with certain ranks.

    Regarding the shodan and chudan, I am not familiar with those terms in conjunction with judo.

    May I ask where you find that?

    Thanks,

    NBK


    Anatol

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Anatol on Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:06 am

    Hi Lance,

    the sources are all in german ...

    A)

    Budo in general:

    budopedia.de

    http://www.budopedia.de/wiki/BSK-Graduierungen

    http://www.budopedia.de/wiki/BSK-Graduierungen#Graduierungssystem_im_BSK

    main contributor for articles was Werner Lind

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Lind

    I like the site because of some old concepts  like (i try to summarize in english):

    To relax (in general) and to tense (at a given moment/opportunity for defence and attack) is very important.

    There is a system to describe this in japanese Martial Arts:

    Shisei (jap.: 姿勢) = "Posture" (outer posture = "shizen hontai" and inner posture = "kokoru gamae")

    Kinchō (jap.: 緊張) = "tension" and Kanwa (jap.: 緩和) = "relaxation"

    Kokyū (jap.: 呼吸) = "breathing" (deep into your belly and not high with your shoulders)

    All three must work together and the center is

    Hara (jap.: 腹) = "belly", "navel", "Center of Gravity".

    Move and throw and strike and kick with your Hara, not with your arms and legs. Your power is generated from Hara.




    B)

    Honorary titles and ranks in Budo:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrentitel_im_Bud%C5%8D

    Kyozu Mifune was "Meijin" (completed person?) and the article says, this is the highest title/rank in Budo ...

    Träger des Meijin-Titels

    Ito Kazuo, Judo Meijin 10. Dan (1898–1974)
    Itoh Takasue, Judo Meijin 10. Dan (1897–1981)
    Mifune Kyuzo, Judo Meijin 10. Dan (1883–1965)
    Nakayama Hakudō, Kendo Meijin 10. Dan (1873–1958)
    Ōtsuka Hironori, Karate-Do Meijin 10. Dan (1892–1982)
    Ota Tsugiyoshi, Iaido Meijin 10. Dan (1892–1984)
    Shioda Gōzō, Aikido Meijin 10. Dan (1915–1994)
    Takano Hiromasa, Kendo Meijin 10. Dan (1900–1987)
    Yamaguchi Katsuo, Iaido Meijin 10. Dan (1917–2006)
    Tose Keiji, Iaido Meijin 10. Dan (1924–2010)

    C)

    Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan

    von Wolfgang Dax-Romswinkel

    (thanks wdax!)
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    finarashi

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by finarashi on Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:13 am

    Anatol wrote:
    Kano introduced the dan belt system with black, red/white and red in 1930.

    1. - 5. dan = black
    6. - 9. dan = red and white
    10. dan = red

    The two first living red belts were Nagaoka and Isogai in 1937.

    In my opinion it would have been more coherent, if Kano would  have started Kohaku belt with Godan.
    Just to note, that Kano's original rank system had grades above 10 dan. (We have discussed this before)


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:10 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Anatol wrote:
    Kano introduced the dan belt system with black, red/white and red in 1930.

    1. - 5. dan = black
    6. - 9. dan = red and white
    10. dan = red

    The two first living red belts were Nagaoka and Isogai in 1937.

    In my opinion it would have been more coherent, if Kano would  have started Kohaku belt with Godan.
    Just to note, that Kano's original rank system had grades above 10 dan. (We have discussed this before)
    It contemplated ranks beyond 10 Dan, but never awarded any.

    Emanuele2

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Emanuele2 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:39 am

    Anatol wrote:1. - 5. dan = black
    6. - 9. dan = red and white
    10. dan = red
    9th dan has a red belt too.

    Anatol

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by Anatol on Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:15 am

    Finarashi and Jonesy

    Yes - I know.

    Kano did an Essay  in "Sakko" (1930), a japanese journal, and said, that he introduced 10 dan grades but dan grades are not limited with judan, because knowledge and skills are unlimited.

    Emanuele2

    The Dan system from 1930 had the 9th dan (kudan) in red/white. In 1943 the colour of kudan was changed from red/white to red.

    Source:

    Grundwissen der Geschichte des Kōdōkan-Jūdō in Japan, Teil 13: Entwicklung des Graduierungssystems
    (I try to translate: "Basic knowledge of Kodokan Judo History in Japan, Part 13: Development/Evolution of Grading System)

    by Wolfgang Dax-Romswinkel
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    NBK

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    Re: Kodansha / roku dan and above

    Post by NBK on Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:02 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Lance,

    the sources are all in german ...

    A)
    ......
    B)
    Honorary titles and ranks in Budo:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrentitel_im_Bud%C5%8D
    Kyozu Mifune was "Meijin" (completed person?) and the article says, this is the highest title/rank in Budo ...

    Träger des Meijin-Titels

    Ito Kazuo, Judo Meijin 10. Dan (1898–1974)
    Itoh Takasue, Judo Meijin 10. Dan (1897–1981)
    Mifune Kyuzo, Judo Meijin 10. Dan (1883–1965)
    Nakayama Hakudō, Kendo Meijin 10. Dan (1873–1958)
    Ōtsuka Hironori, Karate-Do Meijin 10. Dan (1892–1982)
    Ota Tsugiyoshi, Iaido Meijin 10. Dan (1892–1984)
    Shioda Gōzō, Aikido Meijin 10. Dan (1915–1994)
    Takano Hiromasa, Kendo Meijin 10. Dan (1900–1987)
    Yamaguchi Katsuo, Iaido Meijin 10. Dan (1917–2006)
    Tose Keiji, Iaido Meijin 10. Dan (1924–2010)

    ......
    Ah.
    The list above is from the International Martial Arts Federation, IMAF. www.imaf.com
    IMAF Meijin
    It's not been updated to include my sensei, Sato Shizuya, Nihon Jujutsu meijin, since his death.

    IMAF was the first comprehensive martial arts organization established post WWII, and played a role in the re-establishment of martial arts in Japanese culture.  

    The second IMAF honorary chairman was Prince Higashikuni, uncle of Emperor Hirohito, former Imperial Army General, and the first and only prime minister from the Imperial family.  (The first chairman was his elder brother.)  The Imperial Princes granted IMAF the privilege of granting IMAF the custom of awarded shogo、the honorary titles of renshi / kyôshi / hanshi, and during Prince Higashikuni's very long tenure (he died in 1990 at 102yo) all the IMAF certificates bore the Imperial chrysanthemum seal appropriate for his rank of prince (it differs from the Emperor's seal).  I have a number of the original certificates.  

    Now that I see it in writing, I don't actually know where the term 'meijin' derives.  It may be an IMAF innovation.  It means 'famous person', sort of a 'professor emeritus'.   I knew most of the men in the list above, and some taught into their late 80's.  

    The old Dai Nihon Butokukai, patronized by Imperial Prince Nashimoto (half brother of Prince Higashikuni) and his heir, awarded the same honorary titles of renshi / kyôshi / hanshi.  In 1934 one reference cites the following:

    Live judo hanshi:
    Kanô Jigorô
    Yamashita
    Isogai
    Nagaoka
    Samura
    Tabata
    Tomita
    Tobari
    Iizuka
    Tanabe Mataemon (Fusen-ryû)
    Ôki
    Ogaku (?)
    Mifune Kyuzo
    Sekiguchi (Sekiguchi-ryû)
    * if not noted, everyone else held Kodokan rank (some, like Tobari, Samura, Ôki also held koryu jujutsu rank, too.)

    As a judo 3 dan, Admiral Nango Jirô, Kanô shihan's nephew and the second head of the Kodokan, did not have a title.  

    The same reference lists another 23 deceased 'judo hanshi' but the list is almost entirely from koryu jujutsu schools, including:
    Yoshin-ryû
    Shiten-ryû
    Takeuchi-santo-ryû
    Kito-ryû
    Sekiguchi-ryû
    Takeuchi-ryû
    Jikishin-ryû
    Sosuishitu-ryû
    Shibukawa-ryû
    and some others, very obscure.  This makes the point that Kanô shihan made in one of his last speeches on judo, that Kodokan instruction had permeated everywhere, and one could almost not find a dojo in Japan that wasn't teaching Kodokan judo.

    There are a couple of points.
    - After WWII the Dai Nihon Butokukai disbanded, and most people dropped using their DNBK-granted titles.
    - both IMAF and later a new (actually, the third) organization claiming the title of Dai Nihon Butokukai (while very different from the original DNBK, it was in fact patronized by a descendant of the old Imperial patron Prince Nashimoto) resumed the tradition of awarding shogo.
    - in 1934, the Kodokan claimed 55,812 yudansha 4 dan and below.

    AFAIK the Kodokan has never used the shogo honorary titles since the dissolution of the DNBK in 1946, so any postwar titles probably came from one of the two organizations above.  (Note that some small orgs have taken up the practice, probably without even understanding the origin).

    So the main point is that renshi / kyôshi / hanshi are not Kodokan titles, not normally known there outside a couple of history books.  

    Lance Gatling
    Jujutsu Renshi
    International Martial Arts Federation / Kokusai Budôin

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