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    Kata in the UK.

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    HumanRevolution

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    Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:59 am

    I'm new to Judo and I've seen nage-no-Kata on the internet whilst reading literature on Judo.
    I'm 4th Kyu orange belt, I'd like to ask about the "state" of Kata in the UK specifically England.

    At what grade should you start Kata at?
    Is it common practice to perform Kata before a certain grade; if so what grade?

    Could someone also provide me with books and videos on what Kata is like in the UK?






    still learning

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by still learning on Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:39 pm

    Depends very much on the club. I've yet to come across any BJA clubs that are enthusiastic about kata, it generally comes across as one those things you have to do, not want to do.

    Having said that, it also depends on how you define start kata. We teach okuri ashi barai kata style, that is with sideways steps, because it is an effective way of teaching the technique. I am sure many other clubs do the same. So you may find you're learning bits of kata without actually being aware. Similar things apply for ne-waza where escapes are taught that actually appear in the kata.

    As for learning and practicing a complete kata such as the nage-no-kata, it takes a lot of time and mat space. Unless you are already reasonably competent at the throws (and very proficient at ukemi) that might not be the best use of your judo time, at present.

    I guess it depends what you want to get out of your judo, but Birmingham has some great clubs just check on the BJA website to see how many.
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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:55 am

    Is Kata absolutely relevant to progress to a Black belts grade?

    still learning

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by still learning on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:56 am

    Kata is relevant to all grades, essential for grading purposes as judoka progress through the dan grades.

    Much can be learned from kata, but in my modest opinion the most important aspects are posture and movement. By mastering these two aspects randori improves. I think of kata as a training tool for my judo, not a pinnacle to aim for; although I am sure others will disagree.
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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:32 am

    I've never had the privilege of seeing Kata being performed first hand, something I'd like to see though.
    Just out of interest, not being offensive, has anyone actually failed Kata whilst being graded? Is it possible to fail?
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:06 am

    I will base my response on that provided by CK on the Ezoic Judo Forum.

    The physical aspects of learning judo require two types of specific training - randori and kata. Kata training can start at any level of experience - just like randori. Certain kata are more suitable to start off with novice level than others. For example, the Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku is a physical conditioning exercise which requires no previous knowledge of judo; similarly, the Ju-no-kata does not require a judogi to be worn, nor tatami - as the throws are not completed. Since Jigoro Kano himself stated that practical judo training needs to include both randori and kata, studying both is essential irrespective of what specific guidelines for promotion might say. Your training goals should be to improve and become skilled and proficient in judo rather than make it your aim to achieve a particular belt.

    As to kata in the UK, well the majority of the BJA population are kata illiterate – including its Board of Directors and most Senior Examiners. There are some skilled and knowledgeable people in kata in the BJA, but they are in the minority. There are some skilled kata competitors too and what kata there is in the BJA is largely now focused on kata competitions. The is some kata requirements in the BJA promotion syllabus but rather than repeating that information here – just go to the BJA website to read the promotion syllabus.

    Kata is more prevalent in the BJC. Perhaps a BJC member can comment on that.


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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 am

    My goal in this thread was to gain a basic knowledge and idea of when I should start Kata, it was not about achieving the next belt, I just wanted to know some of the basics. I'll keep to training technique and Randori for now.

    I'm just eager to progress in every aspect of Judo I can, I've got long enough to do it as I'm only 20 years old.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:45 am

    Why do you want to stick to technique training and randori for now? Kata is a means of learning technique and other elements of judo too. It is not something different it is an integral part of judo and can help you learn and progress from the get go.


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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:21 am

    I want to keep it simple, there's obviously a lot more than I was expecting. Over powering the brain with too much knowledge is detrimental to sustaining previously taught knowledge so therefore I'd keep to the basics until someone thinks I'm ready to progress, I've actually learn't quite a bit just talking to people and talking over forums, I've most nearly all of it useful to my own situation.

    I read a lot from books and the internet. I suppose I just wanted an idea of others personal experiences with Katas and Judo in general because its difficult to draw from others opinions in book because they tend to leave them out.

    May I asked what your experiences where like when performing Katas?


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:40 pm

    Take for example the Nage-no-kata. In that Tori essentially execute 30 controlled "ippon throws" - 15 to the right, 15 to the left. No other training exercise comes close in this regard. It is useful in learning the correct mechanics of a throw, timing, opportunity as well as other elements of physical and mental development.

    Kata is an optional component in the 2 and 1 kyu promotion tests of the BJA. If you are interested then the time to start learning it is now.

    What is your teacher's attitude towards kata? Does he know it and can he teach it? I would ask him. If you want a book to introduce kata to you, then get "Kodokan Judo"

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kodokan-Judo-Jigoro-Kano/product-reviews/4770017995/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

    I'd you want some films then get the Kodokan teaching films - available from the Kodokan itself:

    http://kshop.hint.co.jp/cgi-bin/kshop/kshop.pl/page=video_fr.html

    or from Fighting Films in the UK;

    http://www.fightingfilms.com/top/online_shop/dvds_videos/kodokan_kata.html

    If ordering from Fighting Films, be aware that the Kodokan updates their Nage-no-kata film (you can see that the box cover is different on FF cf. Kodokan). Make sure you get the latest one and that what they (FF) have for sale is old stock.
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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:28 pm

    I've got Jigoro Kano's book.

    I'm not too sure what my instructors attitude towards Kata is, he sees to be competition oriented as everyone in my club completes at both national and regional competitions. I'll ask him when I go back.

    Thank you for the other links, I'll have a look through them.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by Jonesy on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:14 am

    The book "Kodokan Judo" was not really written by Kano - it was compiled by a panel of experts at the Kodokan long after Kano died. If you want more on Nage-no-kata and Katame-no-kata then get "Judo Formal Techniques" by Otaki and Draeger.

    I would be interested in reading what your teacher says about kata - if he dismisses it, find an additional club to train at where kata is valued.


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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:18 am

    I'll post back when I ask.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by finarashi on Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:29 am

    May I point out some typical preconceptions that are widely stated by some
    1. kata is dead and unliving. I like the opportunity of kata study to try to work out how each throw is supposed to be executed. If you don't throw then you never learn to throw. In kata you get to do more correct throws than in randori. In kata you learn various responses to attacks.
    2. You never learn anything in kata. Where does your sensei teach turning and avoiding the direc attack by positioning one's body. Taisabaki is essential to judo but is seldom practiced. In Nage-no-kata one practices taisabaki every throw.
    3. Sacrifice throw opportunity is difficult for some to catch. This is core issue in nage-no-kata.
    4. 15 throws is lot to work and you'll never master them all. Or the better you do them the more opportunity you have to improve them.


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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:24 am

    I've just read up a little about Tai-sabaki on wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_sabaki

    I've never actually been directly taught these "sets" of movement but
    from watching others I've picked up certain movements. I'm not familiar
    with the Japanese terms although I know of a few.

    I suppose a lot of clubs now focus more on competition rather than the
    traditional way of teaching, Its been mentioned Kata is a regular thing
    when taught in Japan. I just love the idea of attempting and aspiring to
    perfect technique although its impossible to strive for, I did the same as
    a child in other sports.

    techman

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by techman on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:36 pm

    Jonesy wrote:I will base my response on that provided by CK on the Ezoic Judo Forum.

    The physical aspects of learning judo require two types of specific training - randori and kata. Kata training can start at any level of experience - just like randori. Certain kata are more suitable to start off with novice level than others. For example, the Sei-ryoku zenyo kokumin taiiku is a physical conditioning exercise which requires no previous knowledge of judo; similarly, the Ju-no-kata does not require a judogi to be worn, nor tatami - as the throws are not completed. Since Jigoro Kano himself stated that practical judo training needs to include both randori and kata, studying both is essential irrespective of what specific guidelines for promotion might say. Your training goals should be to improve and become skilled and proficient in judo rather than make it your aim to achieve a particular belt.

    As to kata in the UK, well the majority of the BJA population are kata illiterate – including its Board of Directors and most Senior Examiners. There are some skilled and knowledgeable people in kata in the BJA, but they are in the minority. There are some skilled kata competitors too and what kata there is in the BJA is largely now focused on kata competitions. The is some kata requirements in the BJA promotion syllabus but rather than repeating that information here – just go to the BJA website to read the promotion syllabus.

    Kata is more prevalent in the BJC. Perhaps a BJC member can comment on that.

    Jonesy glad to comment:
    The BJC has a very strong Kata based syllabus. Both juniors and seniors are introduced to Nage and Katame- no- Kata at 3rd Kyu level. By first dan they need to demonstrate all of Nage and the first 2 sets of Katame.
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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:13 pm

    He said no, not at this moment in time. Its a shame but I'll keep asking about it.....

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    Jonesy

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:05 am

    HumanRevolution wrote:He said no, not at this moment in time. Its a shame but I'll keep asking about it.....
    Did he say why? Is your club a BJA Club? You could always look to attend a kata course run by external teachers.
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    HumanRevolution

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by HumanRevolution on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:15 am

    As far as I know its a BJA club, we're based in the UK.
    I suppose he's got other things to do, the space is probably another issue as he's only got a single
    Olympic sized mat.

    I'll ask on Monday next week.


    techman

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    Re: Kata in the UK.

    Post by techman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:51 pm

    HumanRevolution wrote:As far as I know its a BJA club, we're based in the UK.
    I suppose he's got other things to do, the space is probably another issue as he's only got a single
    Olympic sized mat.

    I'll ask on Monday next week.


    Perhaps it's something as simple as your grade at present does not require kata, and that's what he means by not at this moment in time. However it is not uncommon to find clubs that do not do kata(more the pity)May I ask where you are located in England, as I am sure there will be a BJC club nearby that would be happy to teach you kata. They are affiliated to the BJA so should not cause you any issues with your sensei.

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