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    jujutsu weapons

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    noboru

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    jujutsu weapons

    Post by noboru on Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:58 pm

    On the books and internet sources are informations about weapons used in koryu jujutsu:
    Suntetsu 寸鉄


    Tenouchi 手の內


    Kobo


    Shuko 手甲

    Tessen 鉄扇


    Jutte


    Jujikatsuma  十字かつ磨

    Kakushi Rings 角指

    more ...

    They exists in more variants.
    Some of them are used in newest names as Kubotan (short wood palm stick introduced by Mr.Kubota on the west).
    Some of olds weapons could be very good used for personal selfdefence with connection of judo techniques (Kumite, Nagewaza, Atemiwaza, Kansecuwaza, Jimewaza).


    Last edited by noboru on Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    noboru

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    wooden variation of Suntetsu

    Post by noboru on Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:18 pm

    I found very interesting personal selfdefence weapon. It looks like as wooden variation of Suntetsu / with cord loop for middle finger - I dont able the japanese name or kanji exactly for this type.

    It small, discreet, usable and "human" weapon, suitable for travelling, easy to make at home, easy to use with judo techniques.

    Below on the right:
    http://japanbujut.exblog.jp/iv/detail/?s=19553625&i=201211%2F24%2F44%2Fb0287744_15241016.jpg
    Source:
    http://japanbujut.exblog.jp/m2012-11-01/

    Next example in top right corner:


    Examples of using is similar as with Suntetsu:
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    noboru

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    tenouchi 手の內

    Post by noboru on Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:00 am

    http://oldsite.bugeisha.ru/aiki/coldjapweap13.shtml



    This russian document uses term tenouchi 手の內 for these wood weapon kinds and more japanese sources too.
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    NBK

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by NBK on Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:26 pm

    Te no uchi can mean
    - one's special technique
    - inside the hand

    We teach the modern version of these techniques and weapons
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    NBK

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by NBK on Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:32 am

    Info on the US versions.
    http://www.yawarastick.com

    DougNZ

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:01 pm

    I've always founds these types of things, well, a bit silly. It is one thing to progress through jujutsu to a state where anything can be used as a weapon - you know, the 'one mind, any weapon' thing. But to carry around a little tool on the off-chance that one will be attacked seems a little ... unbalanced. Besides, modern research points continuously to fine and complex motor skills going increasingly out the window as arousal levels escalate, and so I question how effective someone under pressure would be in co-ordinating a small tool or to strike pressure points.

    One thing I have learnt in my amateur study of martial arts history: society in the past has contained much the same mix as society today. By that I mean that they have always been slick marketers and entrepreneurial types, and the marks they left in history are not necessarily representative of usual or popular practice.
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    Reinberger

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Reinberger on Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:44 pm

    DougNZ wrote:...  Besides, modern research points continuously to fine and complex motor skills going increasingly out the window as arousal levels escalate, and so I question how effective someone under pressure would be in co-ordinating a small tool or to strike pressure points. ...

    While I usually don't practise with things used as tenouchi, I don't think, that, for example, the strengthening of atemi by holding something hard in your fist, protruding at one or both sides and/or between fingers, requires fine and complex motor skills, and I believe, that it will have an effect even apart from hitting at kyūsho. Of course, many things will do that job, from pencils to keys or metal pens, one doesn't necessarily have to carry a separate device.

    Additionally: Is it possible, that this (natural) decrease of fine motor skills during escalated arousal levels you mentioned, is the reason, why mental/emotional training and control (= control of the fear of death) seem to (have) be(en) regarded as important (at least) in old schools, as were the physical training of techniques, and that expressions like mushin and fudōshin, for example, might be strong hints for that?

    That's one of my general thoughts regarding the training and application of fighting-techniques in cases of emergency. Obviously, applying the KISS-principle is the easier and quicker solution to train somebody and to provide him with chances. But I always doubted, that more sophisticated techniques are/were always meant to be "only for show".


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    noboru

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    yawara / kubtan books for Police

    Post by noboru on Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:44 pm

    not koryu ...

    matsuyama yawara book for Police year 1948
    https://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10524/1057/1/matsuyama-yawara1948.pdf

    Kubotan instructional book for Police - 1981
    https://murdercube.com/files/Exotic%20Weapons/Official_Kubotan_Techniques.pdf


    Last edited by noboru on Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Jonesy

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Jonesy on Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:07 am

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    NBK

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by NBK on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:03 pm

    Reinberger wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:...  Besides, modern research points continuously to fine and complex motor skills going increasingly out the window as arousal levels escalate, and so I question how effective someone under pressure would be in co-ordinating a small tool or to strike pressure points. ...

    While I usually don't practise with things used as tenouchi, I don't think, that, for example, the strengthening of atemi by holding something hard in your fist, protruding at one or both sides and/or between fingers, requires fine and complex motor skills, and I believe, that it will have an effect even apart from hitting at kyūsho. Of course, many things will do that job, from pencils to keys or metal pens, one doesn't necessarily have to carry a separate device.

    Additionally: Is it possible, that this (natural) decrease of fine motor skills during escalated arousal levels you mentioned, is the reason, why mental/emotional training and control (= control of the fear of death) seem to (have) be(en) regarded as important (at least) in old schools, as were the physical training of techniques, and that expressions like mushin and fudōshin, for example, might be strong hints for that?

    That's one of my general thoughts regarding the training and application of fighting-techniques in cases of emergency. Obviously, applying the KISS-principle is the easier and quicker solution to train somebody and to provide him with chances. But I always doubted, that more sophisticated techniques are/were always meant to be "only for show".

    Both gents have valid points.

    In the military we used immediate action drills - and these were drilled into your head. The notion is that when faced with a certain situation you are already drilled to respond. These are usually short, easily mastered, and meant to be effective. That could be responding to a weapon jam, more complicated like a starburst of a squad moving out of a covered position, or something as complicated as emergency actions for a pilot ( see 'Chicken Hawk' for an interesting explanation of such https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(book) )

    Some people take very well to this type of training, learning quickly and tend not to forget. Some never get it, and you wash them out. For most folks, they get it pretty quickly but need refreshers.

    So for small weapons, or say knot tying, you probably ought to practice until it becomes second nature. If it's not second nature, you're likely to fumble with more adrenaline, but a simple tool in the right hands can be powerful. And there's no sense in crushing your knuckles when a simple stick can substitute.

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:30 pm

    Studies show that SNS arousal levels correlate closely to heart rate. Siddle and Grossman (1997) create bands of heart rate: white represents less than 80 bpm; yellow is 80-115; red is 115 - 145; and black is beyond that. Red is your optimal combat band. Complex motor skills, and visual and cognitive reaction times are at their peak but the trade-off is that, from 115 bpm, fine motor skills deteriorate. That means, trying to land the end of a hand-held weapon on a specific pressure point target becomes increasingly problematic, as does trying to use that weapon to manipulate joints, etc. Beyond 145 bpm, and certainly above 175 bpm, fight and flight responses take over, gross motor skills are all that can be harnessed and all sorts of perception distortions manifest themselves. Numerous accounts are recorded of police officers who, having been startled from a resting heart rate to around 180 bpm, have dropped their gun! What should we learn from that?

    In response to Reinberger's comments, an overlap band - condition gray - has been identified around 145 - 175 bpm where highly trained combatants continue to function as in condition red when untrained people have ceased to function in a co-ordinated manner. However, even in this grey range, performance is continually deceasing as arousal levels increase.

    My response is to retrain myself to use techniques and responses that work with decreasing co-ordination and awareness. The system I study uses many 'big' techniques that work with identified human physiological responses: bilateral symmetrical movement, frontally inclined torso, limbs that move to the centre and hands that ball and club. Yes, our system has more sophisticated techniques and tactics for working at lower arousal levels but they are built on the simple ones ... the ones we resort to under stress.

    One of the greatest things I have learnt is to see the beauty and sophistication in simple movement. Many of these movements, though completely unorthodox within the common jujutsu framework, better exemplify the concept of 'ju' than the complex commonly-seen jujutsu techniques, in my opinion. So would I train myself to carry and use a wooden tool / toy, or would I train my body to move intelligently and effectively to escape, strike or clinch?

    Oh, and one more thing, the simple movements are the ones that have greatest success with as we get older. Very Happy I remember my teacher talking about them as 'old man jujutsu'. I told him that was what I wanted to learn; if something works well in combat for a 60 year old, how much better would it work for someone in their 30s or 40s?
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    noboru

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    Training should be a complex and all-encompassing, but the real fight should be as simple as possible.

    Post by noboru on Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:21 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    One of the greatest things I have learnt is to see the beauty and sophistication in simple movement.  Many of these movements, though completely unorthodox within the common jujutsu framework, better exemplify the concept of 'ju' than the complex commonly-seen jujutsu techniques, in my opinion.  So would I train myself to carry and use a wooden tool / toy, or would I train my body to move intelligently and effectively to escape, strike or clinch?    

    Oh, and one more thing, the simple movements are the ones that have greatest success with as we get older. Very Happy I remember my teacher talking about them as 'old man jujutsu'.  I told him that was what I wanted to learn; if something works well in combat for a 60 year old, how much better would it work for someone in their 30s or 40s?

    Yes, I agree. I remembered about one note from Dr. Seki Humitake (19.shihanke Kashima shinden ryu). He noted on the event Riga taikai 2009:
    "Training should be a complex and all-encompassing, but the real fight should be as simple as possible."
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    Reinberger

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Reinberger on Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:16 am

    DougNZ wrote:... One of the greatest things I have learnt is to see the beauty and sophistication in simple movement. ...

    I couldn't agree more. IMHO, real (technical) mastery is displayed, if, when watching, or feeling such kind of simple movement(s), produces the "wow-effect", rather than any (allegedly) "high level", complicated, or even artistic techniques.

    I also don't object to what you wrote about arousal levels and their effects. Scientific evidence more than enough has been provided for that already.

    I just think, that an essential goal of the education of bushi was to achieve a mindset, that kept that level rather low, regardless of circumstances, and even in mortal danger. Perhaps "development of sangfroid" may be a proper description and expression, and I believe that it begun at a very young age. The virtually proverbial admonition: "What only are you going to do, if you have to perform seppuku?" of samurai-mothers to "overreacting" children seems to underline that. Additionally, I think especially during the times of constant warfare, there often simply was not enough time to teach or learn anything else but those type of techniques, you allude to, and the training of the mental state had to begin very, very early, to pay off in time. Of course, I don't know how often the goal was really achieved at all.

    According to an old story (albeit from the later time, called Edo-period), addressing that goal, it doesn't seem to have happened all too often. Perhaps, now it is time to once again repeat that record from the German edition of D. T. Suzuki's "Zen in the Japanese culture", I've cited already in another thread:

    "To quote one of the stories cited in the Hagakure: Yagyū Tajima no kami Munenori was a great swordsman and teacher in the art to the shōgun of the time, Tokugawa Iyemitsu. One of the personal guards of the shōgun one day came to Tajima no kami wishing to be trained in swordplay. The master said, "As I observe, you seem to be a master of the art yourself; pray tell me to what school you belong, before we enter into the relationship of teacher and pupil."

    The guardsman said, "I am ashamed to confess that I have never learned the art."

    "Are you going to fool me? I am teacher to the honourable shōgun himself, and I know my judging eye never fails."

    "I am sorry to defy your honour, but I really know nothing." This resolute denial on the part of the visitor made the swordsmaster think for a while, and he finally said, "If you say so, that must be so; but I am still sure of your being master of something, though I don't know of just what."

    "Yes, if you insist, I will tell you this. There is one thing of which I can say I am complete master. When I was still a boy, the thought came upon me that as a samurai I ought in no circumstances to be afraid of death, and ever since I have grappled with the problem of death now for some years, and finally the problem has entirely ceased to worry me. May this be what you hint at?"

    "Exactly!" exclaimed Tajima no kami. "That is what I mean. I am glad I made no mistake in my judgement. For the ultimate secrets of swordsmanship also lie in being released from the thought of death. I have trained ever so many hundreds of my pupils along this line, but so far none of them really deserve the final certificate for swordsmanship. You need no technical training, you are already a master."

    Undoubtedly somebody, who is ready to give his live at any time without hesitation, and doesn't even mind, can do a lot, the most, even everything he is physically able to do, and even under the most dreadful circumstances, because he simply never reaches the highest, the "band black" level - for psychical reasons, at least. My point therefore is, that those restrictions, owed to a highly increased arousal level, simply did (do) not apply under those conditions.

    BTW, relics of that seem to have been inherited even into gendai budō. I regard the same, calm attitude required from a budōka (which is so often neglected, nowadays) after either winning or loosing in competition, to be, not least, a remote reminder about that calm mindset and composure.

    But, OTH, that (also) psychical conditions like the "arousal levels" we talked about, are indicated by the physical phenomenon of "heart rate", which is, regardless of any psychical and emotional discomposure, also a sign for the level of cardiovascular fitness, to me, is also a striking proof for the fact, that physical AND mental training always have to go hand in hand for optimal results. Something that hardly can be fully provided within the realm of contemporary club training, but has to be 1. accepted as necessity for real mastership of a martial art, and 2. strived for, by the individual itself throughout it's life, after that acceptance. Otherwise, one should be realistic enough, to accept mastership of such an art to be out of individual range. Of course, that certainly doesn't mean, that practice can't give pleasure or be meaningful nevertheless, or can't even be helpful in specific cases of emergency. One just can't be able to reach the real peak, and is well advised to accept that (not only, but also regarding the question, which grade could be adequate, for oneself). Realism is always a good thing.

    Regarding the question what works best if we get older, we're on the same track again, I think, becoming 60 this year.


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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:48 am

    You raise some really good points, Reinberger.

    The difficulty is first separating fact from fiction in martial arts history, and secondly finding the context in today's world.

    We have, in Japanese fable, men who could walk on water and run across tree tops, figuratively speaking. I am sure there were exceptional warriors then, just as there are now, but I wonder about the common man - the man who practices martial arts today. I look at performances today and wonder how much is simply posturing - sincere posturing - based on what practitioners believe they should be doing based on stories of the past. Therefore, we see serene faces, perfect posture, rhythmic breathing and wonderful hand movements.

    Back to the science and, therefore, fact. SNS arousal levels only relate to heart rate where heart rate is affected by psychological stress. The effects cannot be achieved by substituting physical stress. This means we cannot do shuttle sprints and pressups, and then try to operate in condition red or grey. Fatigue is not fear. Further, physical fitness has little bearing on controlling arousal levels. We must remember that condition grey was discovered in highly-trained combat specialists. These are men who, like the samurai in the fables, have dedicated their life to combat and practice its craft every day. But they still experienced the negative physical effects of psychological stress. In my mind, the picture of the serene samurai whirling about in the midst of battle, cutting down his adversaries with cool detachment is make-believe. There may have been exceptional men who displayed this trait due to whatever psychotic condition they were born with or developed but I reckon the average samurai was crapping himself in battle, just like Western men have been documented doing throughout the ages.

    Returning to context in today's world, most martial arts practitioners hold down a day job. They are not warriors. Imposing expectations on a modern child in the way samurai children were conditioned would be plain cruel in today's world (meaning, in countries not experiencing conflict). Further, respected martial commentators throughout time have said 'one performs as one practices'. This is how combat specialists achieve condition grey when the rest of us catapult from condition red to the nightmare of condition black. So I look at serene modern martial arts displays and wonder how well they would go in a kickin', bitin' scrap when they are practicing their make-believe faces, kamae and kiai. Much better would be doing plenty of good, honest randori and lying awake in bed at night considering how they would respond to discovering they had just been stabbed in the guts twice.

    I once did an exercise tracing my Japanese jujutsu lineage back to someone who 'might' have used it for real. I had to go back nine generations! No wonder there is so much make-believe in the martial arts. My instructor has logged over 300 incidences and has many more unlogged encounters. My senior student is rapidly clocking up incidences he faces as a paramedic. This has hugely influenced our jujutsu and evolved it into the plain, simple system we practice today. It also allows us to separate things into our tool box and our toy box. So when I look at little hand-held devices, I understand how they could be used but my initial thought is: toy.
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    NBK

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by NBK on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:32 am

    I love the give and take, but am somewhat at a loss at DougNZ's discarding of all the weapons presented as toys. What is more simple than smacking someone with a rock? And these can be no more complex than a long, thin rock.

    I guess if you're terrified enough you can't hold onto a rock, you're pretty much screwed.

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:50 pm

    NBK wrote:I love the give and take, but am somewhat at a loss at DougNZ's discarding of all the weapons presented as toys. What is more simple than smacking someone with a rock?  And these can be no more complex than a long, thin rock.

    I guess if you're terrified enough you can't hold onto a rock, you're pretty much screwed.  

    All I'm saying is I would prefer to train my hands (hammer fist, knife, palm) to do what the little stick can do.  That way I'm not screwed if I get jumped in the supermarket carpark and I left my little stick at home or, worse, remembered to bring it but couldn't get it out of my pocket in time. After all, what is more simple than smacking someone with one's hand?

    I am most certainly not discarding all weapons as toys; we use impact and bladed weapons, too, though their use is pretty simple compared to, say, kali / arnis / balintawak. We use weapons to give us a distance or amplified impact advantage, which I do not see these hand weapons doing. Each to their own, though...
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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Reinberger on Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:44 pm

    Dear DougNZ,

    somehow, I brought myself into a position here, to "defend" something, I don't even train, but so be it!  Very Happy

    DougNZ wrote: ... The difficulty is first separating fact from fiction in martial arts history, and secondly finding the context in today's world.

    We have, in Japanese fable, men who could walk on water and run across tree tops, figuratively speaking.  I am sure there were exceptional warriors then, just as there are now, but I wonder about the common man - the man who practices martial arts today.  ...

    Exactly. I think, regarding the "old stories", I already made the necessary reservations. Nevertheless, I think it makes a big difference, if one was brought up and lived in the times and in the society they come from, or in a modern, relatively civilized society and class (remember, of course: even there, actualities of life may vary dramatically). I don't think, we should discard everything as pure fiction, even if it may be much more difficult nowadays, to develop a certain mindset.

    DougNZ wrote:... Returning to context in today's world, most martial arts practitioners hold down a day job.  They are not warriors.  Imposing expectations on a modern child in the way samurai children were conditioned would be plain cruel in today's world (meaning, in countries not experiencing conflict). ...

    Exactly.

    DougNZ wrote:... Further, respected martial commentators throughout time have said 'one performs as one practices'.  This is how combat specialists achieve condition grey when the rest of us catapult from condition red to the nightmare of condition black.  So I look at serene modern martial arts displays and wonder how well they would go in a kickin', bitin' scrap when they are practicing their make-believe faces, kamae and kiai.  Much better would be doing plenty of good, honest randori and lying awake in bed at night considering how they would respond to discovering they had just been stabbed in the guts twice.

    I once did an exercise tracing my Japanese jujutsu lineage back to someone who 'might' have used it for real.  I had to go back nine generations!  No wonder there is so much make-believe in the martial arts.  My instructor has logged over 300 incidences and has many more unlogged encounters.  My senior student is rapidly clocking up incidences he faces as a paramedic.  This has hugely influenced our jujutsu and evolved it into the plain, simple system we practice today.  It also allows us to separate things into our tool box and our toy box.  So when I look at little hand-held devices, I understand how they could be used but my initial thought is: toy.

    Of course. However, practise of martial arts today might include more than the only one aspect and goal, to make one able to survive a physical confrontation in a case of emergency.

    DougNZ wrote:All I'm saying is I would prefer to train my hands (hammer fist, knife, palm) to do what the little stick can do.  That way I'm not screwed if I get jumped in the supermarket carpark and I left my little stick at home or, worse, remembered to bring it but couldn't get it out of my pocket in time.  After all, what is more simple than smacking someone with one's hand?

    I am most certainly not discarding all weapons as toys; we use impact and bladed weapons, too, though their use is pretty simple compared to, say, kali / arnis / balintawak.  We use weapons to give us a distance or amplified impact advantage, which I do not see these hand weapons doing.  Each to their own, though...
    (emphases added by me)

    Why should a hard thing, protruding from the base of a fist, NOT amplify the impact advantage of a tetsui (hammer fist), for example, especially, if the impact then is carried out with something from hard wood, or even tetsu (iron) or steel in reality?

    As I said before, it might not make sense to always have to carry a special device, and to first of all have to fiddle for it. But, if there is anything around, or even in your hand(s) already (think keys, or similar things), that can be used as a weapon easily, it might be wiser (and even more realistic) to not ignore that potential advantage and to still try to fight barehanded.


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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by DougNZ on Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:42 pm

    Thanks, Robert. I have enjoyed this discussion.
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    Reinberger

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Reinberger on Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:50 pm

    DougNZ wrote:Thanks, Robert.  I have enjoyed this discussion.
    Me too, thank you also, DougNZ!


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    noboru

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    hammer

    Post by noboru on Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:53 am

    Very Happy
    Once when Kyuzo Mifune visited a karate dojo, he was shown a demonstration of tile-breaking by one of the karate men. After the karate man had smashed a number of tiles piled on top of each other, he asked Mifune, “Can a Judo man do this?”
    “Yes, it is very easy,” Mifune replied.
    “Is that so? Can we see what kind of technique a Judo man uses?” the karate man challenged.
    “Of course. Please set up the tiles. I’ll be back in a minute,” Mifune instructed.
    Mifune returned with a hammer he had brought along in his bag.
    “You are not going to use that to break the tiles, are you?” the karate man protested.
    “Yes. I told you it was easy. Efficient use of energy is a key principle of Judo.”

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:57 am

    noboru wrote: Very Happy
    Once when Kyuzo Mifune visited a karate dojo, he was shown a demonstration of tile-breaking by one of the karate men. After the karate man had smashed a number of tiles piled on top of each other, he asked Mifune, “Can a Judo man do this?”
    “Yes, it is very easy,” Mifune replied.
    “Is that so? Can we see what kind of technique a Judo man uses?” the karate man challenged.
    “Of course. Please set up the tiles. I’ll be back in a minute,” Mifune instructed.
    Mifune returned with a hammer he had brought along in his bag.
    “You are not going to use that to break the tiles, are you?” the karate man protested.
    “Yes. I told you it was easy. Efficient use of energy is a key principle of Judo.”

    Great story, noboro!

    Using a hammer to break tiles was probably as shocking to the karateka as wanting to break tiles was to the judoka!!!

    I love the moment in Karate Kid that goes something like this:

    Daniel-san: Mr Miyagi, can you break a wooden board?

    Mr Miyagi: Don't know, Daniel-san. Mr Miyagi never been attacked by a board.
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    Reinberger

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    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Reinberger on Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:39 am

    Usually only by the air, perhaps. Laughing


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    noboru

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    tenouchi

    Post by noboru on Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:47 pm

    Other article about tenouchi:
    http://phillosoph.blogspot.cz/2012/09/tenouchi.html

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