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    jujutsu weapons

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    Hissho

    Posts : 27
    Join date : 2016-11-08

    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by Hissho on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:07 pm

    Interesting thread, bringing up lots of interesting points regarding both these kinds of small weapons and the use of skilled technique under stress.

    NBK really addressed it earlier - there are lots of drills (kata) that one can practice that will help to mitigate the effects of arousal when under duress. Most people can learn, and their training - especially if that training is ALSO under stress, after basic technique or tactics have been learned - will make them better. Some people just "get it," and arousal has much less of an effect on them than it does on others. This has been demonstrated in studies with special forces personnel - as in the "condition gray" mentioned. While they experience arousal, they do not have the same physiological effects on performance, or the same level of degradation, from arousal as others.

    And some, as NBK has noted, never get it, no matter how much training occurs.

    We have to be careful when reviewing literature of assigning the same kinds of effects to ALL of us when it varies considerably by individual, by amount of training and experience, and by nature of the incident. Those officers noted above that dropped their guns have compatriots who did not, and had still others who performed quite calmly and effectively under the same kinds of stress. I see this routinely working patrol and on swat. Some people have what it takes and are unflappable even under high levels of duress, some freak out. The unflapped (unmoved) ones often not only control their own arousal but that of others around them.

    I can vouch that under extreme life-and-death stress, one can (some can), when trained and mentally focused, perform what are fine motor functions: acquiring a sight and firing a gun, reloading weapons, clearing malfunctions, applying life-saving measures, communicate and conduct radio traffic, etc.

    Simple is definitely better. But it's not so much technique as it is the person, and the situation.

    My issue with these weapons is that I just don't see them as being that effective against someone that is truly resistive or aggressively combative. For example, ASP batons are notorious for not being effective impact tools - especially against limbs and pressure points etc.

    Even smaller impact tools such as a tenouchi could be a minor assist, perhaps, in getting a distraction or reaction, but much of that depends on the state of the person struck: intoxicated? Mentally ill? Both?

    I don't know if Edo Japan had the equivalent of coke or meth or other such drugs, but even highly intoxicated people can be near impervious to even great pain at times. They fight harder against painful measures than against bodily control measures not dependent on pain compliance. Often using such weapons and tactics will only cause more injury while having negligible effect. Consider this: some people take a number of rounds of ammunition fired from handguns and rifles, with little effect on their ability to continue fighting. This is common, Some of these are rounds that zip right through people, but others hit bone, damage organs, etc. and the people hit keep on fighting.

    How well do we think pressure points and like stuff will actually work when shooting someone doesn't have the desired effect?

    In the end, result is dependent on the person hit. If they are weak willed, not interested in fighting, not interested in handling pain,  and not very aggressive or with much muscular tension, such things could be useful comealongs, etc.

    If they are the opposite, I wouldn't expect very much of an effect.
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    NBK

    Posts : 1152
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: jujutsu weapons

    Post by NBK on Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:39 am

    Hissho wrote:Interesting thread, bringing up lots of interesting points regarding both these kinds of small weapons and the use of skilled technique under stress.

    NBK really addressed it earlier - there are lots of drills (kata) that one can practice that will help to mitigate the effects of arousal when under duress. Most people can learn, and their training - especially if that training is ALSO under stress, after basic technique or tactics have been learned - will make them better. Some people just "get it," and arousal has much less of an effect on them than it does on others. This has been demonstrated in studies with special forces personnel - as in the "condition gray" mentioned. While they experience arousal, they do not have the same physiological effects on performance, or the same level of degradation, from arousal as others.

    And some, as NBK has noted, never get it, no matter how much training occurs.

    We have to be careful when reviewing literature of assigning the same kinds of effects to ALL of us when it varies considerably by individual, by amount of training and experience, and by nature of the incident. Those officers noted above that dropped their guns have compatriots who did not, and had still others who performed quite calmly and effectively under the same kinds of stress. I see this routinely working patrol and on swat. Some people have what it takes and are unflappable even under high levels of duress, some freak out. The unflapped (unmoved) ones often not only control their own arousal but that of others around them.

    I can vouch that under extreme life-and-death stress, one can (some can), when trained and mentally focused, perform what are fine motor functions: acquiring a sight and firing a gun, reloading weapons, clearing malfunctions, applying life-saving measures, communicate and conduct radio traffic, etc.

    Simple is definitely better. But it's not so much technique as it is the person, and the situation.

    My issue with these weapons is that I just don't see them as being that effective against someone that is truly resistive or aggressively combative. For example, ASP batons are notorious for not being effective impact tools - especially against limbs and pressure points etc.

    Even smaller impact tools such as a tenouchi could be a minor assist, perhaps, in getting a distraction or reaction, but much of that depends on the state of the person struck: intoxicated? Mentally ill? Both?

    I don't know if Edo Japan had the equivalent of coke or meth or other such drugs, but even highly intoxicated people can be near impervious to even great pain at times. They fight harder against painful measures than against bodily control measures not dependent on pain compliance. Often using such weapons and tactics will only cause more injury while having negligible effect. Consider this: some people take a number of rounds of ammunition fired from handguns and rifles, with little effect on their ability to continue fighting. This is common, Some of these are rounds that zip right through people, but others hit bone, damage organs, etc. and the people hit keep on fighting.

    How well do we think pressure points and like stuff will actually work when shooting someone doesn't have the desired effect?

    In the end, result is dependent on the person hit. If they are weak willed, not interested in fighting, not interested in handling pain,  and not very aggressive or with much muscular tension, such things could be useful comealongs, etc.

    If they are the opposite, I wouldn't expect very much of an effect.
    All good enough.

    Dealing with drunks and berserkers is a heck of a way to make a living.
    But people do it every day. Some people do it a lot every day.

    One key must be to keep your own balance while sorting out what's next.

    Regarding getting shot, history is replete with the problems of small arms round penetration and lethality The .45 Army Colt pistol round, then used in the M1911 (soon M1911A1) was developed because of US Army experience with Moro tribesmen in the Philippines. Not particularly large gents, they would get fired up on the local mind scrambler and often take multiple .38 Special rounds yet continue to hack away with their bolo knives, to the great chagrin of the gents on the management end of those .38 Special pistols. So, yes, it really does happen.

    And if someone is armed, it doesn't take much strength to pull a trigger.

    I've never heard of drugs in pre Meiji Japan, but assume there was some opium. In the war era, and 1950s amphetamine use was pretty high.

    But perhaps we're over thinking it - are we looking for the ultimate weapon against a Viking looking for Valhalla or something of utility in dissuading a more normal person from continuing to press an assault? I think very much the latter - there aren't too many people that are going to learn to take on a full blown psychotic or raging drunk.

      Current date/time is Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:07 pm