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    Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

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    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by Anatol on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:01 pm

    I have read the "Principles of Judo" by Kenji Tomiki today


    http://judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm

    and at the end of the page, Tomiki mentions the "Dragon and Tiger Scroll" (Ryuko no Maki), which seems to be a scroll on principles, strategies, tactics and techniques embodying the principle of Judo "ju no ri" (principle of the pliant/flexible/soft/yielding).

    My question: Do you have any further and deeper information or sources for the "scroll of the dragon and the tiger"?

    I found this excerpt:

    "Excerpt from the Jujutsu Ryuko no Maki 柔術龍虎之卷 (Scroll of the Dragon and Tiger)

    "Be able to judge the force of an enemy’s attack and use it against them before it takes effect. Do not use your own power to handle a situation. Give up self-power, throw away your own power. In a confrontation be able to bring an opponent off balance. If possible, evade an attack. Know how to attack without necessarily being able to reach the weak points. Know how to topple an opponent by making use of leverage. Know how to immobilize an opponent with grappling, strangling or striking. Know how to strike the vital points of the body in such a way as to produce loss of consciousness, varying degrees of injury and even death. Also, one must be proficient in how to heal with the art of vital points. When confronted by the enemy and a feeling rises up in yourself that this is the enemy; it means that your heart is moving. This is already a type of loss for you. You must capture the spirit of: Hontai 本躰, Fudoshin 不動心, and Fudochi 不動智 to secure a complete win and true victory."

    Section explaining the secret of Wajutsu 和術 (The Art of Accord/Harmony):

    “If the enemy turns upon us we meet them; if they leave we let them leave. Facing the enemy we accord with them! Five and five are ten, two and eight are ten, and nine and one are ten. Always a nine but never a ten! All this shows is accord.”

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by NBK on Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:11 pm

    Anatol wrote:I have read the "Principles of Judo" by Kenji Tomiki today


    http://judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm

    and at the end of the page, Tomiki mentions the "Dragon and Tiger Scroll" (Ryuko no Maki), which seems to be a scroll on principles, strategies, tactics and techniques embodying the principle of Judo "ju no ri" (principle of the pliant/flexible/soft/yielding).

    My question: Do you have any further and deeper information or sources for the "scroll of the dragon and the tiger"?

    I found this excerpt:

    "Excerpt from the Jujutsu Ryuko no Maki 柔術龍虎之卷 (Scroll of the Dragon and Tiger)

    "Be able to judge the force of an enemy’s attack and use it against them before it takes effect. Do not use your own power to handle a situation. Give up self-power, throw away your own power. In a confrontation be able to bring an opponent off balance. If possible, evade an attack. Know how to attack without necessarily being able to reach the weak points. Know how to topple an opponent by making use of leverage. Know how to immobilize an opponent with grappling, strangling or striking. Know how to strike the vital points of the body in such a way as to produce loss of consciousness, varying degrees of injury and even death. Also, one must be proficient in how to heal with the art of vital points. When confronted by the enemy and a feeling rises up in yourself that this is the enemy; it means that your heart is moving. This is already a type of loss for you. You must capture the spirit of: Hontai 本躰, Fudoshin 不動心, and Fudochi 不動智 to secure a complete win and true victory."

    Section explaining the secret of Wajutsu 和術 (The Art of Accord/Harmony):

    “If the enemy turns upon us we meet them; if they leave we let them leave. Facing the enemy we accord with them! Five and five are ten, two and eight are ten, and nine and one are ten. Always a nine but never a ten! All this shows is accord.”
    Hard to say without the original Tomiki doc and proper references, but I think this is from the Noguchi brothers' series of Shindô Rokugô ryû instruction books from the Taisho era.

    The entire series if four books, IIRC, named after traditional series in scrolls.

    NBK

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by Anatol on Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:56 pm

    Thanks Lance for this hint.

    The text is a late compilation of various principles of Bujutsu and Budo schools maybe. "Dragon" and "Tiger" maybe a symbol for outer and inner aspects of Budo.

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by NBK on Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:51 pm

    Anatol wrote:Thanks Lance for this hint.

    The text is a late compilation of various principles of Bujutsu and Budo schools maybe. "Dragon" and "Tiger" maybe a symbol for outer and inner aspects of Budo.
    No. Suggest you not overthink this.

    These are simply traditional names for books with multiple volumes or chapters. Earth, sky, water, etc......

    Those names have confused people for decades - the classic being Musashi's Go Rin no Sho - a book of 5 chapters
    The Book of Earth
    The Book of Water
    The Book of Fire
    The Book of Wind
    The Book of Void

    The Noguchis used animals without apparent linkage of the topic to the beast.

    I have all the Noguchis' books - they were printed in pretty large quantities because essentially they were mail order martial arts courses - buy this, send us a note that you finished, we'll send another once you send us the cash.

    They had a large following - I wrote about them in the old forum, probably someone picked up and reposted someplace.

    Cheers,
    Lance

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by Anatol on Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:10 am

    Thanks Lance!

    By the way - the old judo forum is online again *and* the search tool works well.

    It was really sad, that all the knowledge and experience from so many Judoka seemed to be lost

    but the old turtle had only a hibernation.

    http://judoforum.com/index.php

    Jonesy

    Posts : 984
    Join date : 2013-01-02

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:11 am

    Anatol wrote:Thanks Lance!

    By the way - the old judo forum is online again *and* the search tool works well.

    It was really sad, that all the knowledge and experience from so many Judoka seemed to be lost

    but the old turtle had only a hibernation.

    http://judoforum.com/index.php
    Full of spam.

    Anatol

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by Anatol on Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:35 am

    Hi Jonesy,

    I just don't care, whether the old judo forum is active or not or the recent postings are spam.


    For me it was very sad, that after selling the forum to ezoic? all the great information was gone and I couldn't research judo topics with all the knowledge and experience, the users brought to this forum.

    Aristotle and Kant are dead too - but you can read their books.

    NBK

    Posts : 1060
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Scroll of the Dragon and the Tiger (Ryuko no Maki)

    Post by NBK on Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:24 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Anatol wrote:Thanks Lance for this hint.

    The text is a late compilation of various principles of Bujutsu and Budo schools maybe. "Dragon" and "Tiger" maybe a symbol for outer and inner aspects of Budo.
    No.  Suggest you not overthink this.

    These are simply traditional names for books with multiple volumes or chapters.  Earth, sky, water, etc......

    Those names have confused people for decades - the classic being Musashi's Go Rin no Sho - a book of 5 chapters
    The Book of Earth
    The Book of Water
    The Book of Fire
    The Book of Wind
    The Book of Void

    The Noguchis used animals without apparent linkage of the topic to the beast.

    I have all the Noguchis' books - they were printed in pretty large quantities because essentially they were mail order martial arts courses - buy this, send us a note that you finished, we'll send another once you send us the cash.

    They had a large following - I wrote about them in the old forum, probably someone picked up and reposted someplace.

    Cheers,
    Lance
    BTW, ""Excerpt from the Jujutsu Ryuko no Maki 柔術龍虎之卷 (Scroll of the Dragon and Tiger)" is probably more correctly, in English
    Dragon Scroll and Tiger Scroll. Two separate 'scrolls', which in the case of the Noguchi books, are actually Western style books.

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