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    my "Nage no Kata"

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    lperro

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    Join date : 2013-09-17
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    my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by lperro on Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:26 am

    Hello everyone,
    i'm here to share with you my execution of nage no kata (during my nidan examination) for a better understanding and improvement of my judo.  Uke is a friend of mine who is sandan.
    What do you think? All critics are well accepted!!



    Thanks for watching and cheers from Italy
    Luca
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    Fritz

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by Fritz on Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:19 am

    Looks nice, not so theatrical like often seen but
    - right harai-goshi: you stop them movement; left one: you "bend" your throwing leg,
    - stepping pattern for tomoe-nage looks quite uncommon for me
    - ura-nage: please look into Otaki/Draeger, i think there some details you can improve
    - sumi-gaeshi you have thrown two times with the left leg so the first one was crap inevitably ;-), improve the control and direction of throwing
    - yoko-gake: please check Otaki/Draeger, for me it seems that can use your arms a little bit more to positioning uke
    - yoko-guruma: maybe it works better if you step with the leg a little bit deeper between ukes legs as soon he starts to squeeze you
    - uki-waza: same problem like sumi-gaeshi, so now the second version is crap ;-) Don't stop movement after second step.


    _________________
    Best regards

    _Fritz_
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:48 am

    Greetings,
    It always courageous to invite criticism. This is a kata that rarely sees a perfect execution. A mostly correct execution will generally be reached by Sandan.

    Uki otoshi
    Uke is thrown to the outside (barrel roll) rather than to his front.

    Seoi nage
    Tori should be lower so he can grip the upper sleeve comfortably and carry the weight on the upper back. You are carrying uke's weight too low so he is thrown partly over the side, not straight over you head and shoulders.
    Uke is opening up too much when he prepares to strike. He is practically facing joseki. Uke should face tori and his fist above his head. You don't turn away from your target when preparing to strike.

    Kata guruma
    Technically correct to roll over the shoulders, but we usually prefer to see tori lift uke completely up, pause briefly and thrown uke down. Tori should not turn his body or move his feet when completing the throw.

    Uki Goshi
    See seoi nage re striking

    Harai Goshi
    Tori is turning his body prematurely. (2nd step)
    On the third step tori is overturning and sweeping air. Not turning on the 2nd step should help prevent overturning on the third.

    TK Goshi
    Turn to throw is incorrect. Consult Kodokan video. You are backpedaling on the left then swinging straight in with the right. (right side throw) You should apply kuzushi as uke steps forward on their right foot and slide your toe in front of his right toes. You then backpedal you left heel into position as you drop your hips. This is a little longer but is essential for correct kuzushi and to allow uke the time to "sense" your attack and react by stiffening his body, which helps with the throw.
    Do not move your hand while walking. Take the high grip immediately as you begin and leave it there. The grip should be higher than normal on the collar but not behind the neck.

    More later... running out of lunch hour.

    I'm curious if the Italian Grading board had any comments for you?

    lperro

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by lperro on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:49 am

    Thanks A LOT for your time and your words. I'm meditating about my mistakes and learning a lot with your suggestions. Thanks again. Im writing more about them soon. Hope to see other critics soon. Luca
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:03 am

    OK
    Carrying on...

    Okuri Ashi Barai
    There should be a progression in the speed of tori's actions so that uke's balance is destroyed in a progressive manner. First step often comes to almost a pause with the second and third steps following more and more briskly, culminating in the throw. You take three steps at essentially the same speed, so this is not being shown.

    Sasae TK ashi
    Right side looked almost like hiza guruma, left was better. When you turn, don't pull yourself so far off your original line of motion. While you do want to clear uke's path to fall, you must remain close enough so your tsurite (hand on the lapel) can have the bicep flexed so you can lift and drive uke, as well as pull with the hikite. (Left looked better than right for this.)

    Uchi Mata
    I rather liked it.

    Time the gi adjustment, so tori and uke both turn around together. Practice counting slowly out loud together, then in you heads.
    (ichiii... niiii.... saaaan... aaannnd turn.)

    Tomoe nage
    Tori should NOT take a step back upon taking grips. Both tori and uke take a half step forward on the right foot (for right-hand technique) then tori pushes off AGAIN advancing first a half step with the right foot. (to complete a full step) For right hand stepping is:
    Right (take grip)
    Right (again)
    Left
    Right (uke blocks)
    Left (feet come even with each other)
    Right foot is raised to throw.

    Your incorrect step, caused you to take of on the wrong foot, so uke was confused in his footing and had to struggle to recover.
    Following the throw, both tori and uke should "strike a pose" for a brief moment, to show control. Tori on the ground and uke on his feet. Avoid using the momentum of your fall to roll back up to your feet, it looks too casual.

    Ura Nage
    Very nice. Always good to see tori falling to his shoulders and not his (or her) butt.
    Same issue with uke's strike as Seoi nage.

    Sumi gaeshi.
    Whoops... wrong foot.
    When you first pull uke, you should be showing that you pull him down and outside by the hand on his shoulder blade. This causes uke to over-react on the second step in attempting to draw himself upright again and makes him vulnerable for the throw.

    TIME.... THE ... TURN!

    Enough for today.
    Practicing Kata is an acquired taste sometimes. It is much more enjoyable when the practice is guided by an instruction in the MEANING and mechanics of each technique. A superficial step-step-throw gets boring fast, but when you delve into what uke's intentions actually are, and why tori adjusts in a certain manner it adds many layers of understanding that can be fascinating to explore. Nage no Kata is like a masterpiece movie that takes many viewings to fully appreciate all the layers of meaning that the director and screenwriter have buried within it.

    I'll try and find time to finish this off soon. I'm glad you appreciate the feedback.

    lperro

    Posts : 19
    Join date : 2013-09-17
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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by lperro on Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:15 pm

    So much food for tought. Thank you very much for your feedback. Hope to get more. I have to practice A LOT more. Thank you.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:06 am

    Let's see...

    Yoko gake.
    Everyone hates this fall. Not bad, but could be crisper. This requires bringing uke's weight more fully onto his forward foot.
    The reap, should actually be on a bit of an angle towards uke's rear. It looks best when both tori and uke completely lose contact with the mat. I tend to start falling and midway through the fall thrust outwards to take ukes feet out from under him. This requires less forces than trying to reap uke's feet when he is still upright.
    (Youtube is a good example, but not exactly how I describe doing it.


    Yoko guruma.
    As you complete the throw, do not lie on your side but rather raise your butt up in the air supported on two feet. This shows "follow-through" and control. Make sure there is a bone-fide attempt at ura nage which uke really blocks so the sequence has authenticity. Your execution was better than many examples I've seen, where there was no perceptible reaction from uke at all prior to tori's throw.

    Uki waza.
    Again, tori and uke's intentions are important here. Tori should be pulling uke off balance again, but having learned from tori's previous throw of sumi gaeshi in a similar situation, as uke recovers he attempts to turn angled away from tori to one side so as to avoid sumi gaeshi. Given this reaction, tori adjusts and throws him with uki waza.
    As you land, once again, lift your butt off the mat to show follow-through and control.

    There are several "learning sequences" embedded in the kata.
    This includes all the strikes: Seoi nage > uki goshi > ura nage and yoko gake.
    Also all the koshi waza: uki goshi > harai goshi > Tsuri komi goshi
    The two grappling in jigotai : sumi gaeshi > uki waza.

    It would benefit you a lot to practice a few hours with a Kata expert. Good luck.

    lperro

    Posts : 19
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : italy

    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by lperro on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:21 pm

    Again, Thanks a lot for your replies.
    I just wanted to add some personal considerations at this point just to let you know what kind of study brought me to that execution.
    In Italy (there are many exceptions) Kata is rarely practised for its own sake, there is a "kata for promotion" mentality and "kata to compete" mentality. I always try my best to understand what im doing ("best use of energy".. you know...) so i started learning the kata following a general principle, that is, of efficacy. Like my sensei did in the early 50s and still try to teach. I wanted to use the kata as a tool for self-improvement, better understanding of judo theory and so on.. not to just show off an "almighty flying uke"  clown

    So the kata, for me, started to be a challenge rather than a ballet (as is generally taught and learned here, i repeat there are many exceptions).

    During my study and preparation for the grading examination I obviously attended a kata course once a week for three months for two years with Paparello Sensei (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-6Dbc5gK4k) to better study NNK and KNK.

    Having that said, all my mistakes were just MISTAKES Laughing
    BUT

    just for uki otoshi and kata guruma: i tried my best and, at my current understanding of kata, that pattern of execution is the better i found even with HEAVY ukes (90+) while the canonical is pretty impossible (i mean the uki otoshi with uke falling like a "nage" throw) or it's dangerous (the static pause in kata guruma) with a much heavier uke.

    What do you think?

    THANKS again for your precious time and explanations.
    I will try to improve my kata with your suggestions.
    Sincerely,
    Luca

    (hem.. sorry for my english  What a Face )
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:59 am

    lperro wrote:

    just for uki otoshi and kata guruma: i tried my best and, at my current understanding of kata, that pattern of execution is the better i found even with HEAVY ukes (90+) while the canonical is pretty impossible (i mean the uki otoshi with uke falling like a "nage" throw) or it's dangerous (the static pause in kata guruma) with a much heavier uke.

    What do you think?

    I look at Kata like geometry.  One can mathematically conceive of a perfect circle, but it is physically Impossible to draw or construct one due to the limitations of the tools and equipment used.  One call always find roughness or ovality or irregularities if one continues to increase the magnification of inspection or precision of measurement.  Kata is the same, its never perfect and never quite the same, but we strive to approach an ideal representation nevertheless.  I think we deviate from that ideal at our peril as we risk missing the lessons we should be learning.

    No disrespect intended to you or your sensei.  It is difficult when looking at a presentation to whether the errors present are those of the participants or if there have been errors in instruction.  I often wonder at some of the presentations I have seen online, where errors I would have insisted students correct on day 1 of practice, have somehow survived to the final presentation at an exam.  In your case, I think further study is warranted but I have seen much worse.

    For Uki Otoshi, I can't see how the execution presented is any improvement over the standard execution, regardless of uke's size.  What I would call a barrel-roll fall is non-standard in judo and is potentially dangerous to uke if he's accustomed to standard ukemi.  I don't see how the standard form is impossible if we've been executing it for about a hundred years.  A key part is the control of uke's eri with your tsurite.  This needs to draw uke forward rather than push him aside, which will keep the throw along the intended line.  Learning to do this correctly will benefit many other waza where this is also important.

    For kata guruma, your method of execution places you in a hunched forward position, so that you are supporting uke's weight in a cantilever manner which is prone to straining the lower back.  The standard execution keeps the spinal column in the same plane with uke's mass and tori's supporting legs, so the strain on tori's back is minimized, when done correctly.  The static pause, far from being dangerous, is moment when uke's mass is in perfect balance over tori's shoulders, so that tori's spine is aligned and under minimal strain.  Uke should be as safe as a baby in a cradle at that moment.  The subsequent throw, while high, is not particularly hard.  It is a matter of tori's control.  Tori lowers one shoulder and raises the opposite arm to unload uke, tori's hands apply a counter-tension to control the fall like in any throw.  I do recall on my shodan exam many years ago, I was criticized for not throwing uke hard enough, such was my concern for uke's welfare.  This despite uke being thrown from the full standard elevation.  (Admittedly, I'm not that tall, but my son is and no problems for his uke either.)

    Anyway, I hope not to get into a lengthy debate about each of the fine points.  Those are my observations, such as they are.  Better to bring it up with your own instructors when the chance arises.  For myself, I'm not shy about speaking up at clinics when anything doesn't match my preconceived notions.  I have found, that as I have progressed, less and less surprises me at clinics given by good instructors.

    I am still curious as to the Italian grading board's comments.  Did they match what I have said at all?  Likewise with your instructors, what do they think?
    I'm always curious if we're all on the same page or if there are widely different opinions out there.

    lperro

    Posts : 19
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : italy

    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by lperro on Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:33 am

    Thank you for your kind reply.
    The geometrical image of kata is beautiful.
    I think I understand what you are saying.

    I'm here to learn. And to do so, I have to share my (very limited) experience and (probably poor) understanding ok Kata. Judo, to me, is tryin' to improve yourself and this is what I'm here for. So I'm just tryin do my best to express what (at my current level of understanding) is real and works for me. It's not perfect and it's not working flawlessy, and that's why I'm here. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you or to the "canon" of Judo or trying to say that my execution is an improvement over the original formula!!!!
    I'm just telling you what I've understood so far (my execution) without trying to hide what I've not understood with the help of a "jumping" uke (That's the point of my execution).
    Hope to have expressed this clearly: i'm not trying to be arrogant or disrespectful and I seriously apologize if my lack of competence with english could give this idea.

    Anyway, from what you says (or from what I've understood) it seems that Kata is something that has always been the same since.. hundread years.. BUT

    Let's pick KATA GURUMA as an example:

    If I look at Yamashita demonstration from the early days..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmOX5p5zmc0

    and then I have a look to the Mifune's pupils
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuLgKqqGNuA

    I get more or less "one" image ...

    If i watch (for instance) Hirano Sensei
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbVYvHITrZU
    I have another image

    If, again, I look at the present or recent past
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxuMpDIiO9M
    I still get another image.

    Are them or are them not, very different?
    And this is just kata guruma.
    NOTE: I understand that MY execution lacks in a very important point here (the alignment of the column) and I'm not debating over this! I'm just curious about the "pause" suggestion and, more in general, about the fact that many aspects of kata seems to me to have changed a lot over time.


    ***

    My sensei is very rooted in his days and practice the kata in his particular way. He doesn't talk a lot so is not very easy to talk with him of details (when I ask some technical issue he usually repeat to me something like: "practice *like this* (he shows off something) at least 5.000 times, then we can add another little detail".

    Sensei Paparello is very technical and from what I understand, in line with IJF teaching.

    During the examination the board asked me to do again Uki Goshi and to explain the differences with O Goshi, because they said I loaded Uke too much on my waist during the Nage no Kata execution.
    They didn't add much else excepting that, with some mistakes, it was an acceptable execution for a nidan..

    Today I will speak more with my sensei about Kata and tomorrow hopefully also with Paparello. So I could add some informations more.

    Thanks again,
    Luca
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:38 am

    You'll notice in my original post I did qualify my statement about what is technically correct and what is "preferred".
    Y-C wrote:Kata guruma
    Technically correct to roll over the shoulders, but we usually prefer to see tori lift uke completely up, pause briefly and thrown uke down. Tori should not turn his body or move his feet when completing the throw.

    You are quite right that the interpretation has changed a lot over the years and fashions come and go. I do not insist on a pause, although that is the present fashion because of the Kodokan teaching video, and what seems to be the fashion of the Japanese competitors.


    My main concern was over the body position and the resultant possible strain on your lower back.

    For my own students, I insist they attend clinics leading up to their exam which are run by the Provincial Grading board. Currently Judo Quebec (Provincial Branch of Judo Canada) has a very good program. They have assigned key Sensei to be responsible for the teaching of each kata, (Suzanne Arsenault is teaching Nage no Kata) and the president of the Grading Board, Yves Landry is auditing the various instructors. They have also made the kata clinics free for club technical directors all in the interest of keeping everyone up to date.

    It is acknowledged by the best instructors that kata is malleable. (Unless they are too immersed in the own ego, but the really good ones aren't)

    I think you have the right attitude. I would suggest you lend more weight to the more recent examples from either high level teachers, especially Japanese and French, or from successful international Kata competitions.
    This will lead to what is currently considered a correct interpretation. For the old black and white footage, it is of tremendous historical interest and if you can convince some of your more senior sensei's to watch it all with you over a bottle or two of wine, some interesting information may emerge.

    My own sanity relies on these three principles:
    Good judo is judo that works.
    Better judo is judo that works AND is efficient.
    Correct Judo is the opinion of the highest dan grade present.

    I'll say this much. Hearsay is a DANGEROUS thing in judo. Much damage has been done by lower ranks misreporting or misinterpreting what they have heard from higher ranks. Don't get into arguments, but be ready to find a more direct route to confirm anything you may hear.

    lperro

    Posts : 19
    Join date : 2013-09-17
    Location : italy

    Re: my "Nage no Kata"

    Post by lperro on Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:29 am

    Thanks again a lot for your kindness, lucidity and mindfulness.
    I think I've learnt many things, many more I discovered i still need to learn and this is always good.
    Have a good judo and cheers from Italy Wink
    Luca

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