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    Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

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    Jonesy

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    Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by Jonesy on Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:56 am

    https://www.canal-sport.fr/fr/kata-1/gonokata
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    NBK

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by NBK on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:56 am

    Jonesy wrote:https://www.canal-sport.fr/fr/kata-1/gonokata
    O...M...G....... Crying or Very sad

    I knew Carl de Cree likes to hear himself talk but in this _edited_ version he takes almost 30 min to get to the first technique! I don't understand much French but he just yaks on and on and on.... Luckily there's a fast play button on the video (GREAT feature!) and you can put put it on 500% and watch him wander in circles like a dazed chicken, flapping his arms. Perhaps it's more interesting in French, but I strongly doubt. Those are some very patient folks.

    Kano shihan only wrote a tiny bit about Go no Kata - does his blather cite any sources?

    I can't take anymore today.

    Anatol

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by Anatol on Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:09 am

    No he doesn't - he speaks a lot about principles like hara and ma-ai and tai sabaki.


    Kogi and Mondo are two important parts of teaching Judo and I wasn't surprised at all.

    Wink

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    judo66

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by judo66 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:06 am

    NBK wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:https://www.canal-sport.fr/fr/kata-1/gonokata
    O...M...G.......  Crying or Very sad

    I knew Carl de Cree likes to hear himself talk but in this _edited_ version he takes almost 30 min to get to the first technique!  I don't understand much French but he just yaks on and on and on.... Luckily there's a fast play button on the video (GREAT feature!) and you can put put it on 500% and watch him wander in circles like a dazed chicken, flapping his arms. Perhaps it's more interesting in French, but I strongly doubt. Those are some very patient folks.

    Kano shihan only wrote a tiny bit about Go no Kata - does his blather cite any sources?

    I can't take anymore today.


    During his long monolog he mentionned the Kodokan magazine as a reference. He can't remember the exact issue saying that it represents more than 22,000 pages of information. Since I am myself a french speaker (i apologize for my poor English) i did listen and watch his presentation entirely. Yes indeed the participants were patients. It seems to me that he used the opportunity to express his own view on what is or is not judo. He clearly indicates that there has been a drastic change in judo before and after WWII.

    Anatol

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by Anatol on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:31 am

    I can see no drastic change

    Randori in 1922

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_1U5mI652I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZRczjg0fzk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiztYs--bjI

    Just light Randori and throw after throw depending on skill level ...



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    NBK

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by NBK on Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:00 pm

    judo66 wrote:
    NBK wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:https://www.canal-sport.fr/fr/kata-1/gonokata
    O...M...G.......  Crying or Very sad

    I knew Carl de Cree likes to hear himself talk but in this _edited_ version he takes almost 30 min to get to the first technique!  I don't understand much French but he just yaks on and on and on.... Luckily there's a fast play button on the video (GREAT feature!) and you can put put it on 500% and watch him wander in circles like a dazed chicken, flapping his arms. Perhaps it's more interesting in French, but I strongly doubt. Those are some very patient folks.

    Kano shihan only wrote a tiny bit about Go no Kata - does his blather cite any sources?

    I can't take anymore today.


    During his long monolog he mentionned the Kodokan magazine as a reference. He can't remember the exact issue saying that it represents more than 22,000 pages of information. Since I am myself a french speaker (i apologize for my poor English) i did listen and watch his presentation entirely. Yes indeed the participants were patients. It seems to me that he used the opportunity to express his own view on what is or is not judo. He clearly indicates that there has been a drastic change in judo before and after WWII.

    "Yes indeed the participants were patients. It seems to me that he used the opportunity to express his own view on what is or is not judo. He clearly indicates that there has been a drastic change in judo before and after WWII."

    Like I said, I don't speak French, but this came through clearly.

    Your English is fine, thank you.

    I wonder where he learned Go no Kata. Did he say?
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    NBK

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by NBK on Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:37 pm

    Anatol wrote:I can see no drastic change

    Randori in 1922

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_1U5mI652I
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZRczjg0fzk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiztYs--bjI

    Just light Randori and throw after throw depending on skill level ...
    Perhaps not in the randori, but did you understand his claim of the differences?

    Those links, a couple of things stand out to me:
    - standing, kneeling chokes
    - different bowing - the current type was introduced in the 1930's

    Nice, thanks!

    Anatol

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by Anatol on Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:17 am

    Hi NBK

    This is marginal.

    Judo in randori and competition is faster today and with better technique.

    This pre WW II so much better talk is just nonsense. I am glad, that we have this 1922 footage today for those with phantasies about pre WW II Judo ...

    This is Judo in slow motion.

    If you want to watch or practise good randori and competition Judo, just visit a high level competition club and ask for full randori with all techniques (if you want to).


    Last edited by Anatol on Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:45 am; edited 4 times in total
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    judo66

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by judo66 on Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:28 am

    I don't want to repeat all his explanations, however he brings the point that after WWII judo has been developed as a sport where the close range (with kumi kata) is almost the only part that is practiced nowadays. He goes on that during Kano's time there was specific training for atemi and bo jutsu that would be judo at a distant range.

    I don't remember that he said how, when or by whom he has been taught the go no kata. However he stated that Ochiaï is his reference and that he teaches that kata according to what has been showed by that senseï.

    A good part of his presentation was also explaning what was kuzushi, tsukuri, kake and debana. I find it suprising that he took the time to talk about that since everybody in the audience were yudansha and considering that there were several kohaku among them.
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    NBK

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by NBK on Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:32 am

    judo66 wrote:I don't want to repeat all his explanations, however he brings the point that after WWII judo has been developed as a sport where the close range (with kumi kata) is almost the only part that is practiced nowadays. He goes on that during Kano's time there was specific training for atemi and bo jutsu that would be judo at a distant range.

    I don't remember that he said how, when or by whom he has been taught the go no kata. However he stated that Ochiaï is his reference and that he teaches that kata according to what has been showed by that senseï.

    A good part of his presentation was also explaning what was kuzushi, tsukuri, kake and debana. I find it suprising that he took the time to talk about that since everybody in the audience were yudansha and considering that there were several kohaku among them.
    Exactly. Very odd.

    wdax

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

    Post by wdax on Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:04 pm

    judo66 wrote:(..) A good part of his presentation was also explaning what was kuzushi, tsukuri, kake and debana. I find it suprising that he took the time to talk about that since everybody in the audience were yudansha and considering that there were several kohaku among them.
    My french is not the best, but I´m familiar with the concepts he is talking about, so I think, I understood enough to make a comment on this point.

    We don´t know the exact title of this seminar and it´s context, so I will not share any opinions about the relevance for Go-no-Kata, but limit myself to the part, where theory of Nage-waza is adressed.

    In the west there is an obvious discrepancy between the understanding of the traditional model of the principles of Nage-waza and biomechanical research. Here is what in the west is understood about debana (an almost unkown term), kuzushi, tsukuri and kake. On the other side are physical description in terms of equiliburum, momentum, force, lever etc.

    Defining "principles" is always an approach from a different perspective and different sets of principles are a logical consequence. He tries to explain the different approaches, stating Kano´s approach was intended pedagogical while other approaches - in this case the ideas of A. Saccripanti - are based on on maths and physics.

    I´m very sure, that the common yudansha and kodansha cannot integrate these different approaches under one umbralla. But this is IMHO necessary to unite traditional models and modern approaches. Otherwise judo will split even more in contrary groups then we see it know.

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    Re: Go-no-Kata - Boulouris International Kata Training Course - FJDA/Kodokan - November 2016

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