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    Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

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    RidgewoodJudo

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by RidgewoodJudo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:32 am

    Why are these rule changes just "accepted?" It seems the vast majority of the judo population oppose them, but grumble without doing something about it.

    Rather than being passive and just accepting things we know are hurting judo, the real question is.... how can we mobilize to get the rules changed back?

    (Edited to add Marote Gari as my avatar!)
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:49 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:Why are these rule changes just "accepted?" It seems the vast majority of the judo population oppose them, but grumble without doing something about it.

    Rather than being passive and just accepting things we know are hurting judo, the real question is.... how can we mobilize to get the rules changed back?

    (Edited to add Marote Gari as my avatar!)

    Judo is not organized as a parliamentary democracy. The IJF Executive Committee is not held accountable, except when there are presidential elections which oftentimes split everything in two. People then mostly think in terms of what they can get out of the outcome and are almost willing to do anything and support anyone to achieve that. The last presidential election and the entire PJU/PJC illustrate the difficulties in getting anywhere if you don't agree. There is a self-sustaining propaganda system and because through the judo structure federations hold a monopoly, any disagreement might result in a federation losing that monopoly and be replaced by another one.


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    BillC

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by BillC on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:41 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:Why are these rule changes just "accepted?" It seems the vast majority of the judo population oppose them, but grumble without doing something about it.

    Rather than being passive and just accepting things we know are hurting judo, the real question is.... how can we mobilize to get the rules changed back?

    (Edited to add Marote Gari as my avatar!)

    One answer: Hold a tournament and write your own rule modifications. Your club is a USJA club, get a sanction from them noting the rule modifications you want to make on the tournament flyer. It happens all the time.

    You will run into two challenges at least. At first you may be told by someone that exceptions are impossible ... but you will be able to point out all the exceptions that are already made, especially for kids ... medical rules, mat size, judogi fit, etc. ... so why not for contact below the waist for example?

    Then you will have the problem of referees, but as tournament director you will just have to hold firm and dictate the rules of the tournament as sanctioned.

    But it can be done ...

    radzfman

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by radzfman on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:18 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:^^^ Ref Above:

    Why do the Japanese not withdraw themselves from the travesty that has become their art? Is it a sense of pride? It is their creation and they still want to show/prove how it should be done. Is it a sense of guilt? They loosened their strings of control and 'gave it to the world' and now their product is unrecognizable. Do they believe someday it will revert to what it was. A sense of inertia and corruption derived from the division between the kodokan and their national federation?
    Any insight into their thinking? Into why they believe, as judged by their adherence to whatever passes as 'rules', that sticking with it is the best course of action?
    The IJF is an easy target. But in a certain way they have my sympathy. They see it as a sport and are doing they best to make it so.
    But why is there no backlash from the japanese. Are they taking the slow and steady, wait and see, everythings for the best, approach?
    Bah! sometimes a problem is best solved by a quick stroke of the blade. Show some mettle and withdraw from this and possibly a large part of the judo world will actually fall behind them!!

    That's an excellent question. I talked about this a couple of years ago with some people involved in the All Japan Jûdô Federation. The conversation was not started off by Olympics or so but by kata contests as the IJF started developing its own kata competition rules. I was told that the Japanese increasingly took the position that they did not care what the Japanese, and just did their own thing. They were very decisive in expressing this opinion. However, I must add to caveats. One, this was before Uemura was named kanchô, and some believe that Uemura made a choice that was not completely as expected, such as the evolution towards using dynamic border tatami in the All Japan Championships or the blue gi. In other words, it seems to me that those impactful words that I was told are not as solid as suggested and the Japanese resistance against the IJF has started crumbling. Secondly, there is a consensus in Japan that the single most important championship in jûdô is the Olympics. The Japanese know they can't circumvent the IJF, thus the only alternative is to give up on Olympic jûdô medals which before last Olympics was unimaginable, probably still is, but at least the man's team were forced this time to return without a single gold medal. My impression is that Japan is too afraid to cut ties with the IJF and emerge on a parallel pathway with a new federation or through the World Judo Federation and first accumulate world support before growing large enough to challenge the IJF hegemony within the IOC.



    The prstige and international starture of the Olympics prevents Japanese Judo Federation from deviating from the IJF.

    radzfman

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by radzfman on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:21 am

    LeighJudo wrote:Personally I think that IF Sambo becomes sanctioned by the IOC, then a lot of judo players will jump ship over to Sambo. And we may find that Sambo looks like what judo looked like 10-15 years ago (rules wise).

    Just my opinion.

    http://www.sambo-fias.org/en/news/2013/2/4/Pervyj%20v%20istorii%20yaponskij%20%C2%ABKubok%20Prezidenta%20Rossii%20Vladimira%20Putina%20po%20SAMBO%C2%BB%20sostoyalsya%21

    http://www.sambo-fias.org/en/news/2013/2/6/Yaponskij%20%C2%ABKorol%20podhvata%C2%BB%20vruchil%20medali%20sambistam

    Also in the FIAS site Inouye was there to present the medals!

    It happened in Japan, the cooperation or recently with their Judo Federation the FIAS sponsored group representing Japan.

    Here in the US I'm hoping USA Judo and USA Sambo (anotehr FIAS affiliateed group) officially support each other, Other than the occasional judo player playing Sambo FIAs tournament.s
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    judoratt

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:27 pm

    radzfman wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:^^^ Ref Above:

    Why do the Japanese not withdraw themselves from the travesty that has become their art? Is it a sense of pride? It is their creation and they still want to show/prove how it should be done. Is it a sense of guilt? They loosened their strings of control and 'gave it to the world' and now their product is unrecognizable. Do they believe someday it will revert to what it was. A sense of inertia and corruption derived from the division between the kodokan and their national federation?
    Any insight into their thinking? Into why they believe, as judged by their adherence to whatever passes as 'rules', that sticking with it is the best course of action?
    The IJF is an easy target. But in a certain way they have my sympathy. They see it as a sport and are doing they best to make it so.
    But why is there no backlash from the japanese. Are they taking the slow and steady, wait and see, everythings for the best, approach?
    Bah! sometimes a problem is best solved by a quick stroke of the blade. Show some mettle and withdraw from this and possibly a large part of the judo world will actually fall behind them!!

    That's an excellent question. I talked about this a couple of years ago with some people involved in the All Japan Jûdô Federation. The conversation was not started off by Olympics or so but by kata contests as the IJF started developing its own kata competition rules. I was told that the Japanese increasingly took the position that they did not care what the Japanese, and just did their own thing. They were very decisive in expressing this opinion. However, I must add to caveats. One, this was before Uemura was named kanchô, and some believe that Uemura made a choice that was not completely as expected, such as the evolution towards using dynamic border tatami in the All Japan Championships or the blue gi. In other words, it seems to me that those impactful words that I was told are not as solid as suggested and the Japanese resistance against the IJF has started crumbling. Secondly, there is a consensus in Japan that the single most important championship in jûdô is the Olympics. The Japanese know they can't circumvent the IJF, thus the only alternative is to give up on Olympic jûdô medals which before last Olympics was unimaginable, probably still is, but at least the man's team were forced this time to return without a single gold medal. My impression is that Japan is too afraid to cut ties with the IJF and emerge on a parallel pathway with a new federation or through the World Judo Federation and first accumulate world support before growing large enough to challenge the IJF hegemony within the IOC.



    The prstige and international starture of the Olympics prevents Japanese Judo Federation from deviating from the IJF.
    Well said Radz. Judo is by far Japan's #1 olympic sport for medals and money they would never step away from the IJF/Olympics . Why would you sugest they step away? Because you can not grab legs. ShockedShocked
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    finarashi

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by finarashi on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:53 pm

    The time to suggest that by implementing any rule changes would bring back the time when japan took all gold medals in mens events passe 40 years ago. So even if japan would be able to state whatever rules they like, the gold medal haul would not be that different.


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    judoratt

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by judoratt on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:06 am

    Is my opinion that the majority of the rule changes favor the classic stand up Japanese style of judo. The reason why Japanese are not winning as many medals is the advancement of worldwide judo.
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:12 am

    judoratt wrote:Is my opinion that the majority of the rule changes favor the classic stand up Japanese style of judo. The reason why Japanese are not winning as many medals is the advancement of worldwide judo.

    Agreed. Just reading the justification for the new rules pretty much confirms that.

    It's an interesting cycle. At first, the Japanese reigned supreme. Then, to catch up, the Europeans/Russians introduced intensive conditioning and training methods, unorthodox "techniques" etc to close the gap. Finally, with time, the world caught up technically to the Japanese, and that plus the modern training methods closed the gap all the way.

    Along the way, the IJF (d)evolved into a modern sports organization whose primary purpose is to make money as part of the Olympic (and modern commercial sports) movement.

    Anybody else see the irony in changing the rules to remove all the technical strategies used by the West to help overcome Japanese dominance?

    Ben

    But

    Emanuele2

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Emanuele2 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:16 am

    Has anyone watched Paris Grand Slam with new rules? I found them very dynamic and active.

    Pieman

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Pieman on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:53 am

    Just looked at difference between Paris in 2012 and 2013 - interesting that scores are down 10 percent on average per fight. Appreciate may feel more dynamic but unclear it's resulting in more attacks!
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Ricebale on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:30 pm

    I watched a few matches over the weekend.

    Judo has gone from freestyle wrestling to greco, bigger throws but less over all scores per match.

    The groundwork was better than the last olypmics imo.

    Seemed like a lot of penalties on average, the grips and gripping were a bit less certain also which led to a lot of dancing to avoid position rather than countering grips.

    Cheers

    radzfman

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by radzfman on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:36 am

    I've read around that some of the most active players and observers lament at the fact that the limtitations of complete prohibiton of leg grab techniques limited or completely nullified ability to counter. Others pointed out that upper body strength is going to count more than technique. the IJF has created " jacket-Greco Wrestling with trips".
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by nomoremondays on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:38 am

    radzfman wrote:... Others pointed out that upper body strength is going to count more than technique. the IJF has created " jacket-Greco Wrestling with trips".

    Precisely! In my opinion, Uranage is now going to be the technique du jour and not the return of harai goshi as someone suggested in another thread. Though there were not that many successes, the number of 'attempts' at uranage at the tournoi were revealing.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:06 pm

    radzfman wrote:I've read around that some of the mostin active players and observers lament at the fact that the limtitations of complete prohibiton of leg grab techniques limited or completely nullified ability to counter. Others pointed out that upper body strength is going to count more than technique. the IJF has created " jacket-Greco Wrestling with trips".

    I was talking to a high ranking judoka from our national org today, he knows my background and he asked me about the leg grab issue, I replied with:

    1. At 40 I'm too old to do leg attacks as a main or even common without serious risk of back injury
    2. My pick up style favours upper body attacks
    3. In the judo syllabus of 67-80ish throws there are really only 3 direct leg attacks and a couple of counters so on balance not many techniques have been altered, it's a tactical adjustment
    4. I actually find upright attacking judo more interesting than the olymoic wrestling codes to watch
    5. The full range of techniques will still be availible in special comps and mma for adults

    So for me at this time I'm not too fussed, Greco with a jacket, submissions and trips is right up my alley and I'm making a re entry into the National body with a judo/sambo class for kids

    Cheers

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:25 pm

    "It doesn't effect me so it doesn't matter."
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:14 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:"It doesn't effect me so it doesn't matter."

    Pretty much. I've trained and competed in freestyle wrestling, greco, bjj, judo, freestyle judo, mma and sambo. I'll do what suits me when I please.

    Cheers

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:15 pm

    Very "Mutual Welfare And Benefit"!
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:33 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:Very "Mutual Welfare And Benefit"!

    I don't live for you mate Very Happy
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:49 pm

    yeah I'm not gonna lie, these rules help me. there's nothing that I do that is now illegal. I still hate them for the effect they're likely to have on tournament participation, which does hurt me when I show up and leave without any matches.


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by nomoremondays on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:41 am

    hedgehogey wrote:"It doesn't effect me so it doesn't matter."

    That sentiment is unfortunately the problem. And thats the principle I have been against here and elsewhere. If I was to care about only techniques I could do all this plays perfectly into my hands as I am more of a tai otoshi person than anything else. In fact, if I try very, very hard to think back I think I could count on one hand the number of times I have done a leg pick up or hand-to-leg assisted throw. But thats not the point.
    Till 2010 I was ok with the rules. I saw the benefit of the rules then. There was an educational value to them. I, like many other, saw them as an effort to bring back pure, classical japanese judo which was fine. But now! They are not even pretending anymore. Now the reason is to 'make it easy for the refs' and give a 'visual appeal' to this whole thing. What a sham! The argument that it promotes good judo is no longer the relevant argument. It was till 2012. I was on board till then. Now its a charade!

    ps: my promise to billC still stands, though I reserve the right to vent now and then :-)

    NYCNewbie

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by NYCNewbie on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:16 am

    I hate the new rules and I am a tall, thin Judo player who would get leg grabbed, or threatened with a leg grab, all the ____ing time.

    The new rules help me immensely- and I think they are absurd.

    hedgehogey

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:18 am

    The new rules used to benefit me, as my tokui waza is sumi gaeshi. Now, with the near loss of any ability to crossgrip, i'm boned too. Regardless, it should be obvious that I never liked them. Let people play their style of judo, don't take the coward's way out and try to legislate it away.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Jonesy on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:47 am

    hedgehogey wrote:The new rules used to benefit me, as my tokui waza is sumi gaeshi. Now, with the near loss of any ability to crossgrip, i'm boned too. Regardless, it should be obvious that I never liked them. Let people play their style of judo, don't take the coward's way out and try to legislate it away.
    There are no cowards in the middle of the shiai-jo, period!
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Now that leg grabs are completely disallowed...

    Post by Ricebale on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:34 am

    hedgehogey wrote:The new rules used to benefit me, as my tokui waza is sumi gaeshi. Now, with the near loss of any ability to crossgrip, i'm boned too. Regardless, it should be obvious that I never liked them. Let people play their style of judo, don't take the coward's way out and try to legislate it away.

    I agree with this sentiment. I used to compete in anotger grappling art until they effectively banned leg locks and neck controls, I simply walked away from it as my favourite parts were now missing.

    The new version of the rules will favour some and alienate others. Fortunately in my country at least there competitions in judo which allow leg grabs and those that don't, hopefully everyone can find a home.

    Maybe the masters divisions will appreciate the new rules more with our aging backs Smile

    Cheers

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