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    Judo Throws for Self Defense

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    Hissho

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    Join date : 2016-11-08

    Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Hissho on Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:49 am

    Posted these on my blog and posting here for thoughts and critique: my practice of judo and jiujitsu is largely focussed on self defense and defensive tactics applications.

    https://inharmswayblog.com/2017/04/01/the-tactical-ankle-trip-redux/

    https://inharmswayblog.com/2017/03/26/tactical-tani-o/

    Brainjutsu

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    Join date : 2013-11-15

    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Brainjutsu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:51 am

    Sasae seems doable but I can't really see the attack so it's hard to be sure. In my experience wide swings move opponent's body to much forward to go for sasae or other technique. If they miss the often go down themselves. That way is also easier to explain to cops and lawyers that he suffered damages because he fell down rather than he was thrown by you, a martial artist who should know such move would be dangerous.

    As far as tani otoshi is concerned, it may work in case you have a kick/knife/furniture-proof back to save you from your opponent's friends or any bystander who gets an idea to join the party. Unless this is for some one-on-one duel in the back yard. But then it's not self defense...



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    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Hissho on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:24 am

    Yeah the sasae came off a looping punch followed by a duck-under, not seen in the video.

    As for being easier to explain: If you defend yourself and use reasonable force you absolutely can and should explain what you did to cops and lawyers, and should not worry excessively over it. As a martial artist you should be able to control yourself, and your attacker, and only do serious injury when it is necessary.

    Things happen, of course, but if your actions are reasonable and you can explain it you should be fine.

    As a twenty year cop, I can tell you  that is not where people jam themselves up. They jam up either going overboard in defending themselves and continuing to attack people who are no longer a threat, or they start evading or embellishing what happened in order to avoid getting in trouble, or taking responsibility for injuring someone, which only arouses suspicion.

    Re: Tani - ideally with any throw I agree, dont go down with the guy. Unfortunately we aren't always given ideal circumstances. Rather than going down to the ground ourselves this puts the attacker on the ground first and immediately clears the hands so that you can either get up and away for escape - or as an officer, control for cuffing.  I probably should have been more clear on that in the set up.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:03 am

    Cannot agree with ever going to the ground in a self defence situation. Your adversary could have friends nearby who could swing a blunt object, bottle etc at your head and cause serious life changing damage.


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    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Hissho on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:45 am

    Jonesey I don't agree with it either, but the fact of the matter is that it happens. A lot. There is simply no way we can guarantee not going down with a violent attacker just as we cannot guarantee going not down on a throw with a fellow judoka, even on a smooth mat.

    Slippery surfaces, slippery shoes, uneven surfaces, furniture, debris, other items within the area of the fight, you are already being attacked by multiples, etc. etc. These are often listed as reasons not to go to the ground, and they are all valid, but they also happen to be the very reasons that many real fights end up there.

    One of the major advantages of judo is the ability to throw without going to the ground when possible. This is the first and best approach.

    But another advantage of judo is the ability to retain top position if you happen to go down. One of the major issues I have with BJJ viz-a-viz self defense or defensive tactics is that its throwing syllabus has defaulted to tying up and going down with the attacker, if not simply pulling guard or otherwise pulling the attacker to the ground where the defender drops first - and often on top of the defender. I cringe when I see this kind of thing taught as self defense, and even moreso when it is taught to cops.

    So yes, a good nagewaza will either allow you to stay on your feet, or to at least not be entangled with an attacker (with say a knee on belly) so that you can immediately disengage.

    But if you have ended up on the ground on top of the guy, and he is grabbing or holding you, you are in a better position to un-entangle than if on the bottom. Many osaekomi moves allow this kind of disengagement, whereas attempting to go for certain submissions will often entangle you even more.

    For police, we often have to control the subject once we have thrown him to the ground, so the ability to keep from being entangled by his hands, while monitoring and tying his hands up so that he cannot access weapons (his own, or ours) is important.

    Brainjutsu

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    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Brainjutsu on Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:40 pm

    Your views on self-defense are correct but video you presented don’t really match that. Throw, especially a “high-arch” throw like sasae, is considered a very aggressive technique in line with punches and kicks, at least where I come from. If performed with skill, i.e. by a martial artist, they get more scrutinized and can be judged as excessive force in case of serious injuries. It goes the same for both police officers and ordinary citizens. Remember that judo’s basic throws are designed to minimize the possibility of injury by allowing for a breakfall plus for uke’s own controlling action. Your version is actually what sasae is meant to be used in real encounter because it ends with slamming the opponent against the ground, flat. That’s pure todome. Back in feudal Japan it was both effective and acceptable. Today, I wouldn’t bet on the latter.

    Going to the ground does happen, no doubt about it. However, it should happen when you can’t keep your balance either to break away from the opponent by throwing him over (e.g. tome nage) or getting back on top of him and then break away. In your demo you’re clearly not out of balance before performing tani otoshi. It may be a good move when arresting a fugitive, but that’s police arresting tactics, not self-defense.

    I was once training with an American and a German police officers. The German, rest his soul, showed some painful throws under join lock followed by a boot to my head after I landed (luckily only simulated). He said it was a standard technique they used. The American guy, also a police officer with years of experience, only rolled his eyes Smile


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    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Hissho on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:07 am

    I should clarify that I am speaking in terms of American/US law - not all the same of course but generally so. As an LEO I am a use of force trainer and review other officers' uses of force in field as well.

    I'll parse the rest to address/discuss specifics...

    Throw, especially a “high-arch” throw like sasae, is considered a very aggressive technique in line with punches and kicks, at least where I come from.

    Two things - one I don't really consider sasae a high arch throw. Second, it would be a technique against a higher level o threat, that is absolutely correct. A subject punching at you, or attempting to grapple with you, is a higher level of threat and a sasae to take him down is absoutely reasonable - for citizen or officer.

    I did not set the context up that well with either of these, so apologize for that.



    If performed with skill, i.e. by a martial artist, they get more scrutinized and can be judged as excessive force in case of serious injuries. It goes the same for both police officers and ordinary citizens.

    Hmmm - Legally, (in the US) the skill with which you perform a technique is immaterial, only it's reasonableness will be judged as whether it is excessive or not. The same goes for injury - the fact is if it is reasonable to cause injury you are absolutely justified That does go for cops and citizens. Your status as a martial artist will be inconsequential - criminally - but the level of injury you cause may be questioned if it was not objectively reasonable. Note - and this happened to me before i entered law enforcement - your status as a martial artist could very well be brought up in a civil trial, as a way to sway the jury towards awarding damages.

    We must also take care to be overly liability averse. Many cops and many citizens are so when considering self defense or defensive tactics. The standard is be reasonable.


    Remember that judo’s basic throws are designed to minimize the possibility of injury by allowing for a breakfall plus for uke’s own controlling action. Your version is actually what sasae is meant to be used in real encounter because it ends with slamming the opponent against the ground, flat. That’s pure todome. Back in feudal Japan it was both effective and acceptable. Today, I wouldn’t bet on the latter.

    It all depends, based on the above. Again, this is meant against someone aggressively attacking you by striking or grappling. That is utterly different than a push or shove, and I would by no means use such a tactic in the latter case.

    Hissho

    Posts : 17
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    Re: Judo Throws for Self Defense

    Post by Hissho on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:11 am

    Ran out of space in my last post...

    Going to the ground does happen, no doubt about it. However, it should happen when you can’t keep your balance either to break away from the opponent by throwing him over (e.g. tome nage) or getting back on top of him and then break away. In your demo you’re clearly not out of balance before performing tani otoshi. It may be a good move when arresting a fugitive, but that’s police arresting tactics, not self-defense.

    This is valid, and a good point. I was thinking about it in terms of optics, and I should have had uke head locking me. As it stands it looks like a primary move, take him down and arrest him thing and that is exactly the point I was trying to counter!!



    I was once training with an American and a German police officers. The German, rest his soul, showed some painful throws under join lock followed by a boot to my head after I landed (luckily only simulated). He said it was a standard technique they used. The American guy, also a police officer with years of experience, only rolled his eyes

    As would I, absent other factors it would be an excessive use of force on its face.

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