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    Adapted Judo

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    Y-Chromosome

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    Adapted Judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Mon May 22, 2017 12:44 am

    From Kodokan News:
    Link to Article
    Link to Facebook video
    Demonstration and Opinion Exchange Meeting of Special Needs Judo
    10 May 2017
    Mr. Cees Rust who is researching about Judo for persons with disabilities visited the Kodokan from the Netherlands with three cooperators. On Thursday, April 20 at the main dojo, they demonstrated some Kata that was tailored by them in front of related Japanese persons, and it was followed by an opinion exchange meeting.

    Mr. Cees Rust, now 41 years old, started Judo when he was 13 years old. He injured his cervical spine in a traffic accident when he was 24 years old, and it left him paralyzed from the waist down. Nevertheless, he has continued Judo and now has a 3rd Dan of the Netherlands and also the qualification of Judo trainee, and is instructing children.

    Judo for visually-impaired persons is popular in the world, and Judo events for them are held in Paralympic Games. Mr. Cees Rust and cooperators are researching and promoting Judo for persons with a disability of every kind including Down syndrome and physical disability, and they named it "Special Needs Judo".

    One has to admire the enormous effort it took to prepare this demonstration. Some very interesting and successful adaptations, others I think may need more study or have to go in entirely different direction. An enormous challenge attempting to adapt an art that makes so much use of hips and legs to a person with the lower body immobile.

    Lately in Quebec, the grading board has been adamant that they want no more "Doctors notes" during gradings. Do the waza or don't grade. In this case, I think there is a better approach. I would far rather see adapted waza, than no waza at all. My one proviso is that there should be some validity to the waza.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Jonesy on Mon May 22, 2017 5:21 pm

    Y-Chromosome wrote:From Kodokan News:
    Link to Article
    Link to Facebook video
    Demonstration and Opinion Exchange Meeting of Special Needs Judo
    10 May 2017
    Mr. Cees Rust who is researching about Judo for persons with disabilities visited the Kodokan from the Netherlands with three cooperators. On Thursday, April 20 at the main dojo, they demonstrated some Kata that was tailored by them in front of related Japanese persons, and it was followed by an opinion exchange meeting.

    Mr. Cees Rust, now 41 years old, started Judo when he was 13 years old. He injured his cervical spine in a traffic accident when he was 24 years old, and it left him paralyzed from the waist down. Nevertheless, he has continued Judo and now has a 3rd Dan of the Netherlands and also the qualification of Judo trainee, and is instructing children.

    Judo for visually-impaired persons is popular in the world, and Judo events for them are held in Paralympic Games. Mr. Cees Rust and cooperators are researching and promoting Judo for persons with a disability of every kind including Down syndrome and physical disability, and they named it "Special Needs Judo".

    One has to admire the enormous effort it took to prepare this demonstration.  Some very interesting and successful adaptations, others I think may need more study or have to go in entirely different direction.  An enormous challenge attempting to adapt an art that makes so much use of hips and legs to a person with the lower body immobile.

    Lately in Quebec, the grading board has been adamant that they want no more "Doctors notes" during gradings.  Do the waza or don't grade.  In this case, I think there is a better approach.  I would far rather see adapted waza, than no waza at all.  My one proviso is that there should be some validity to the waza.
    Appalling attitude by Quebec.  Judo is an education and gradings are about knowledge and skill. There many ways that can be proven.  Shame on them.


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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Tue May 23, 2017 12:29 am

    Jonesy wrote:Appalling attitude by Quebec.  Judo is an education and gradings are about knowledge and skill.  There  many ways that can be proven.  Shame on them.

    I understand where they're coming from. The grading is perceived as primarily about skill and there was a perception that too many people were using doctors notes to try and game the system. ie. be able to demonstrate what they're good at and get a bye on what they're not.

    Sure you can learn a lot about judo through alternate means, but if you can't step onto the mat and perform it, do you really "know" it in a judo sense. We have a lot of young students who look at pictures and videos and know which throw is which by name, but when it comes time to demonstrate, the little elements don't come together quite right and uke slides down their leg rather than being thrown crisply onto their back. I have trouble in these instances in accepting that the kid "knows" the throw.

    Also is it fair to fail one person for a mediocre execution of Nage no Kata, and then let another pass without doing it, because... "oh my back you know". At a certain point they got fed up and said that if you can't perform the physical requirements for a certain grade, you don't grade.

    Here we have a different approach. Rather than saying "I can't do this, so I shouldn't have to" this gentleman has said... "I can't do THIS, but I can do THAT, will you accept it as equivalent." It appears that at least the Dutch have said yes. The Kodokan has so far shown an interest in thinking about it.

    There is a lot to unpack here. Judo is a discipline that primarily manifests itself in physical performance and possesses a well defined syllabus which makes fine distinctions between various throwing principles. To what degree can we accept modification of those principles for an adapted syllabus? How plastic does that syllabus have to be considering that people are going to come in with varying degrees of mobility? Who's job is it to come up with the adaptation and who decides if the adaptation is appropriate? Will there be a line in the sand somewhere that says, sorry, nice try but that's no longer judo.
    Will the shiai requirements still be insisted on, and if so, how will that work?

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by davidn on Tue May 23, 2017 11:54 am

    This is just the beginning of what could be a very important, influential conversation.

    As I have a new job and take public transportation, I've been thinking about this a lot as I see how disabled/special needs people are treated, or how specific changes for their needs are implemented.

    It's caused me to ask myself "If this person came to my class, how/what would I teach them?"... because telling them "Sorry, you can't do judo" is not an option in my opinion.

    I don't have any good answers. I'm just a shodan trying to stay a step ahead of his kids. Would be interesting to see more development in this area.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:04 pm

    okay, I see davidn posted on May 22 when I was having my stump revised in what I hope will be the last surgery on my leg post injury. For those who don't know, Sept. 23, 2015, I had a motorcycle accident where I landed really well - there wasn't a scratch on my helmet. My left leg didn't survive being squished between a guardrail and the bike all that well. They tried to save it, but on Nov. 22, 2016, it was amputated in what's called an "elective" amputation (basically, where it's not an emergency surgery, but you're abandoning trying to save it). I've also had an infection issue, like many trauma amputees, resulting in somewhere between 20 and 30 total surgeries (I think more towards the 20 side, but can't be sure - that first week in the ICU is a total blur).

    So, if I ever submitted my paperwork, I'd be a nidan. Whoopee! It took me something like 6-8 years to actually submit the paperwork for my shodan, so rank isn't a big deal to me, as you can plainly see. Judo, however, is a big deal to me. I'm looking forward to stepping back on the tatami in the near future (ne waza classes, at least initially. I'm not cleared for throwing yet). I need to get physically back in shape, get more acquainted with my new body, and attempt to apply what I know about judo to my new body.

    Wait, what the? What does it mean to be a one legged judoka among all you two legged freaks?

    Honestly, I don't know. I've been in the Dojo of the Mind for so long that I do have an idea. I've also been connecting with a few other amputee judoka. There's one here in the US named Joe Walters sensei who lost his leg above the knee in the Vietnam War. His son wrote a book about it available through Amazon called Strength in Numbers, but it isn't a "how to" manual of what to do in judo. I've been talking with him some. He gave up on shiai about a dozen or so years ago and strictly teaches these days, like a lot of men in their 70's. Joe has a candy cane belt, don't know the particular rank.

    I've contacted two gents in their 70's in the UK who are amputee judoka, at the same club, playing each other for decades, along with everybody else at the club. Don't know much about them as I've only had a bit of contact with one.

    There's a young guy also in the UK, named Jamie Gane who's a BKA on the opposite side of me. He's trying for his shodan but looking for more amputee judoka to play as he has yet to play one. I've promised to cross the pond when I'm an acceptable target for his waza. You can read about this guy through his blog here: http://www.jamiegane.com/blog/2017/6/14/amputee-judo.

    He and I have very different ideas about amputee judo, and it's probably because 1. I'm old as dirt, and 2. I haven't been on the tatami as an amputee judoka yet. I personally think that no rule modifications need to apply to shiai and reasonable modifications need apply to kata. I think that your standard gateme no kata and nage no kata are do-able with one leg. The rest? I don't know. It would take a bit of creative adaptation to make those kata fit the capabilities of somebody with one leg. I'd have to find a good kata partner to play with those (and I'd have to learn more than juno kata and a bit and piece of a few others). But, when it comes to shiai, I don't think there should be a separate "amputee" division. When it comes to testing, I don't think there should be a separate amputee division. I just want to play, and play all comers to the best of my ability. Jamie wants a separate division. Cool. Somebody had to come up with the rules and modifications for blind judo, perhaps he'll come up with the rules, mods, and juice to come up with a disabled judo division, especially in the paralympics. I personally am too old to worry about the paralympics or to want to do more than play at the highest level I can play at with other "masters" or whatever they're calling old farts these days.

    But my first steps are to get into shape (I've lost all muscle mass on my left leg what with not walking for almost 2 years) and then get onto the tatami with people I trust so that we can experiment with what I really can and cannot do.

    I do think that a ne waza division in most shiai would be a good thing. We lost Matt Marcinek, a guy with MS who couldn't do much with his lower body, once the "no leg grab" rule went into effect. He's a great guy, trains bjj these days, and is a total loss to judo.

    Fwiw, I'm going to start with bjj on the ground classes once I can get back on the tatami. It's going to take stamina and muscle mass and more work on my balance before I can get into a judo class. Besides, I'll have to figure out just the opening warm-ups. Shrimping, no problem. But side falls from standing - gonna take a bit of work. Front falls? Sheesh, dunno. And if you run around the room to get the blood flowing? I get to jump around in a corner instead? I don't know.

    Oh, and you can follow my progress here:
    http://staceyknapp.altervista.org/blog/

    Oh, and there is another woman who's a BKA (below the knee amputee) who's around my age, over in the UK, and a Barcelona olympian who's teaching judo to kids who are not amputees or disabled. I will eventually pick her brain as well.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:51 am

    Stacey,
    Of course I'm sorry to hear about your accident, but it is inspiring to hear how you're dealing with it and heartwarming to see you approaching life with such good humor.
    This whole broad area is still in its infancy. As a society we're still struggling to make sure people have access to washrooms and public transit, let alone sort out all the details of what is 'fair' in terms of sports competition and grading.
    I can see how separate divisions can be a double-edged sword.
    Keeping amputees apart could level the playing field on the one hand, but make it awfully difficult to find enough people to compete at all on the other. I would hope all-concerned stay as flexible and open-minded as possible. As it is, the girls are usually lumped together across weight, age and belt classes to make a big enough pool. I'm not sure how wide a net one would have to cast to fill a division for U16, -52kg, Female, Green to Blue... with single-limb amputation.
    It will be interesting to see if Para-Judo moves beyond the VI competition to other conditions.
    I wish you all the best with training and recovery.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:44 am

    The way I'm looking at it is simple, and probably too simple. I look at it kind of like left-handed judoka. Lefties are great at playing righties because most of their training partners are righties. Righties are not exactly comfortable playing lefties, but they get used to it because there are quite a number of lefties around, including one or two in their own dojo (probably more). But, put a leftie against another leftie, and things get interesting. Neither are used to actually playing with another leftie, not to the competence level as playing against a righty.

    Same thing happens a lot with women and girls in judo (though this is changing some). Judo is dominated by men in the US, so a woman in judo is used to playing men. Men have some experience playing with women, at least with their token woman in their dojo. Once you get to shiai, and women are stuck playing women, some perhaps for the first time, and some perhaps only encounter and play other women at shiai in their judo careers.

    Amputee judoka? Just another variation along the same lines, but with an even smaller number of people in the eligible pool. Unlike many other adaptive sports, there's very little that can be adapted to the amputee. Sure, I'm going to modify my pants, and I'm going to cover my stump with silicon so that I don't get nasty mat burn that prevents me from wearing a prosthetic for a few days, but those are personal preferences. Others tape their pant leg up. Others fold. Most wear nothing on their stump. Whatever - nobody's ever going to allow an amputee to full on randori with a prosthetic on. So, we adapt to judo.

    Judo can help with this adaptation at shia and in the dojo. My balance is interesting, and I do throw myself at strange times, usually the more I'm concentrating on balance, the more I'm apt to fall. Sitting on my ass to adjust my jacket and obi - it's a good thing. Now, how much leeway I'd get at shiai when walking on a knee or stump and a foot v. hopping, I don't know. Can I stick my stump out and touch my partner with no intention of throwing simply because it means I'm more stable that way (something I figured out making a sandwich - if i put my knee into the door of the cupboard, I can dump the crutches and use both hands to make a sandwich. something about contact between my lower leg and something else means more stability).

    But, to the thesis of paralympic judo extending beyond blind judo - imho, it's not likely. Amputee wrestling left the paralymplics a while ago. If wrestling can't make it, what with its leg grabs and touches below the belt, what chance does amputee or mobility impaired judo?

    Does this mean you dismiss a student for not being able bodied? No. I don't think the vast majority of us would do that. I didn't. The only student I ever refused was one with an active stent coming out of his stomach who couldn't supply a doctor's okay. Most people? You can adapt judo to their bodies. Those of us who are older have had active, immediate, personal examples of this as our bodies have gone through our aging process. Shoulder doesn't work all that well in a traditional way? Change things up and adapt to our bodies. Knee doesn't work like it used to? Change it up and dump that drop seio.

    Amputation, imho, is just more of the same. A lot more of the same, but falling under the same principle.

    Wanna get more amputee judoka in your dojo? Hit the VA hospitals, especially the ones with relevant rehabs. You won't get a lot of interest, but how many people who attend a demonstration actually show up for a trial class?
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:14 am

    Stacey wrote:Whatever - nobody's ever going to allow an amputee to full on randori with a prosthetic on. So, we adapt to judo.
    ...

    I for one, wouldn't have a problem with it.

    I see it more of a design problem. If we can design prosthetics that let an amputee outperform able bodied runners on the track, we can design a randori-safe prosthetic. (My parents would have said "If we can put a man on the moon....")

    I think If we are going to make judo more accessible we need to be open minded about adjusting regulations when reasonable and safe to do so.

    In that regard, it's encouraging that the Kodokan is starting to look at these issues. Conservative as they are, the Kodokan doesn't like having ideas imposed on it. (Note their continued resistance to Blue judogi.) On the other hand if the necessary adaptations are THEIR idea... I can't see the change-crazy IJF standing in the way.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:21 am

    Y-Chromosome wrote:
    Stacey wrote:Whatever - nobody's ever going to allow an amputee to full on randori with a prosthetic on. So, we adapt to judo.
    ...

    I for one, wouldn't have a problem with it.

    I see it more of a design problem.  If we can design prosthetics that let an amputee outperform able bodied runners on the track, we can design a randori-safe prosthetic.  (My parents would have said "If we can put a man on the moon....")

    I think If we are going to make judo more accessible we need to be open minded about adjusting regulations when reasonable and safe to do so.

    In that regard, it's encouraging that the Kodokan is starting to look at these issues.  Conservative as they are, the Kodokan doesn't like having ideas imposed on it.  (Note their continued resistance to Blue judogi.)  On the other hand if the necessary adaptations are THEIR idea... I can't see the change-crazy IJF standing in the way.

    They have all sorts of padded stuff that can be put over the hardware. The real problem is feel. There's no feel to it, other than what's going on in your mind. So, when I had a leg they were trying to save, and the doctor said, "can you feel this", my answer was, "feel what?". When he said, "push your toes up/down" I'd execute the maneuver, feeling in my mind that I was doing both up and down. Little did I know, I couldn't push down.

    Feeling is a weird thing, and cutting off the interface between the outside world and the inside world creates some unique problems. In judo, even with appropriate padding, there is not enough information coming in from the absent leg to make wearing a prosthesis safe. It's like this - when they were trying to save my leg and the skin wounds were healed, I'd swim to try to do something. I'd do a flip turn, and not know if my left leg landed properly until enough of a shock was transmitted up my non feeling leg to the points that could feel. It was then that I'd push off with that leg. It would be wholly inappropriate to perform ashi waza, senkaku, or any of a myriad of other techniques on another person, a training partner, with such an inability to feel. Movement would be dangerous because I wouldn't know how much pressure I was applying.

    Now, when it comes to advances in prosthetics, there's only one guy working on sensation in legs. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-33052091. As you can see, there are only six sensors in the bottom of the foot, and while this is a major step forward (I love leg puns these days, along with leg jokes), it is very different from laying a prosthetic leg over the back of somebody's head as in senkaku.

    I believe we have a long way to go before there's a leg that's safe to use in judo. In the interim, I will become the ken-ken master of all time.
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    Udon

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Udon on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:37 am

    You know, for a lady, you've got some big balls. My hat's off to you !
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    Fritz

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Fritz on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:26 am

    Stacey wrote:Feeling is a weird thing, and cutting off the interface between the outside world and the inside world creates some unique problems. In judo, even with appropriate padding, there is not enough information coming in from the absent leg to make wearing a prosthesis safe. It's like this - when they were trying to save my leg and the skin wounds were healed, I'd swim to try to do something. I'd do a flip turn, and not know if my left leg landed properly until enough of a shock was transmitted up my non feeling leg to the points that could feel. It was then that I'd push off with that leg. It would be wholly inappropriate to perform ashi waza, senkaku, or any of a myriad of other techniques on another person, a training partner, with such an inability to feel. Movement would be dangerous because I wouldn't know how much pressure I was applying.

    Now, when it comes to advances in prosthetics, there's only one guy working on sensation in legs. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-33052091. As you can see, there are only six sensors in the bottom of the foot, and while this is a major step forward (I love leg puns these days, along with leg jokes), it is very different from laying a prosthetic leg over the back of somebody's head as in senkaku.

    Respect to your concerns, but i am sure after a little training you will have a good sense, how to use a prosthesis in randori and shai "safely".
    Why? Its simple physics and experience, somewhere in your body are the muscles you use to move the prosthesis resp. apply force via it.
    And this muscles give you the feedback, the feeling you need.
    If you use a weapon / tool (a stick or  a knive maybe) - its kind of a prosthesis too - you are already able to handle safely, no problem - so
    why it should not work with a wooden leg too?


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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:07 am

    Maybe I'm wrong. I get a leg tomorrow, so I'll be able to post pictures of all the moving parts. There is a reason that the IJF doesn't allow hard objects in shiai. I believe the Kodokan has the same rule (though probably not applied to small bra clasps). I watched as a guy in an arm brace accidentally injured his training partner because he didn't know how much pressure he was applying to an arm. I know the Brits do not allow a prosthetic at testings. I know Joe Walters does not practice with a prosthetic because of the danger of injury.

    I also know legs haven't been made of wood in more than 100 years, now involve a lot of moving and adjustable parts so that the stump stays in the socket and the ankle/foot allows for the most natural gait possible

    How many people in your dojo practice or are allowed to practice with hinged knee braces?

    Kata, maybe, and only if you know you're not going to ever have a critical fail. Regular practice? Would you like somebody practicing osoto gari against the back of your calf if their calf consisted of metal and screws?

    Like I said, I'll post pictures once I have a leg. I suspect that the problem of a prosthetic leg is a lot more onerous than you're imagining. Maybe a bit less than I'm imagining, but then I have nerve damage in my residual limb as well. I've actually broken my leg without knowing it. Showed up 2 days later on a routine x-ray. (I executed a pretty nifty break-fall there. The problem was the baby gate that was where my leg was supposed to land. Either that, or the crutch that got wrapped up on the baby gate. Ah, well, that was a while ago, and I no longer have that bit of leg, either)
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:06 am

    I tend to side with Fritz.  There's an uphill battle to gain acceptance for prosthetics, but I think the conversation needs to be had.  Making a prosthetic that is safe for the opponent is hardly an insurmountable design issue given the state of technology available and the advances that have already been made.  As for making it effective for the user, I think that's a matter of training like everything else in Judo.  It would seem counter-intuitive for someone to spend 90% of their time living and working WITH a prosthetic, only to take it off when doing judo.

    The ban on hard objects is presumably born out of a rational safety-oriented reasoning.  Logically, if the safety concerns can be addressed and shown no worse than the status quo, decision makers would be hard-pressed to maintain a hard-line.  This is judo of course and logic and inclusiveness don't always hold sway.  We've seen this in protracted arguments against any kind of head-covering being allowed to accommodate for religious practice and in the ongoing resistance to blue judogi in some quarters.  In those cases though, there were "tradition" based arguments to be made which were not as easy to counter-argue as simple matters of practicality.

    Not sure if there is anything in the core traditions of judo or Japanese culture that is inherently anti-prosthetic.
    Personally I think my personal eye-roll reaction would be pretty extreme if some joker started to try to explain to me that prosthetics are "not traditional" and "against the spirit of judo".
    PUh-LEASE.

    All that said.... how in the heck were THESE PEOPLE not on my radar?
    An entire Adapted Martial Arts Association, including Judo.
    http://www.adamacanada.org/Dossier-de-presse.html
    Hoping this will spread beyond Quebec.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:25 pm

    leaf spring pretty much describes my ankle/foot assembly. My tibia is made of titanium. My socket is made of carbon fiber. It is already pretty thick at the thigh to begin with, what with the gel liner, the socket, and the over coat that gives it suction. If you want to throw padding over the top to make it safe for my partner, I'm still not going to feel it. There is nothing over my ankle or lower leg, though I suppose it would be possible to pad the crap out of that without interfering with the pyramid. There's a rubber bit over my foot to fill out my shoe. But again, my foot/ankle is a leaf spring. You load onto the toe, and it pushes back at you - gonna take some getting used to.

    Again, you are underestimating how much you rely on your sense of feel. Let me give you a for instance - feet, the rubber protective things, cost bucks. You don't replace them often because they cost bucks. They may be just rubber coatings over the foot end of the leaf spring, but, they still cost. The leaf spring will eventually push its way through the foot - maybe at a toe, maybe at the bottom of the foot, maybe in a readily observable spot. Let's assume the leaf spring pops out of the bottom of my foot - how likely am I to know it until it's cutting a swath through the tatami and somebody points it out to me? If I can't tell I'm cutting through the tatami, how likely is it that I'm going to be able to tell whether I'm cutting into my partner's foot, or breaking his/her arm before I even know it?

    The technology isn't there yet. Sorry folk. You're not appreciating how much tactile information is coming through your entire leg. Will it get there? Maybe. Probably not in a serviceable amount of time for me to use it in anybody's dojo.

    90 percent of time in an artificial leg is much too great an estimate. You don't sleep in one. You don't bathe in one. They are impractical in a number of circumstances, and take a long while to get used to. Torque on the socket causes pain, injures skin, and can cause a lot of other problems, not the least of which is infection. It can also cause a kneecap to dislocate, a patellar tendon to tear, and even dislocate the knee.

    While my knee-jerk reaction to the proposition is I don't want to harm my training partners, yesterday, when I stuck my stump in a socket for the first time, I realized that my leg is in jeopardy using it as well. The stiffness of the socket helps to protect my knee, but I think it's a bit like a steel toed boot - protective to an extent, but when it fails to protect, the injury is severe.
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    Fritz

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Fritz on Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:13 am

    @Stacey: The prosthesis you describe seems to be a high tech device, optimized for some purpose (e.g. daily life)

    Obviously this one may not be the best choice for Judo.
    How do other athlets handle the problem, in the paralympics we see prosthesis which are optimized for the
    sport, in daily life they use different one, i think ... ?

    The risk to damage your daily life prosthesis in my opinion leads inevitably to a second one for your sport activities ...

    Stacey wrote:How many people in your dojo practice or are allowed to practice with hinged knee braces?
    If the choice is the people don't practise or they practise (carefully) with "hinged knee braces",
    then they should practise ...
    Of course not all things are possible, but with a little bit considerateness/thoughtfulness a lot works.



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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:00 am

    Yes, some sport is practiced with feet optimized to the sport. There are three basic types of sockets, and all are fairly rigid, at least for below the knee purposes. Wrestling, when it was a paralympic sport, was practiced without prosthetic devices, and that's a sport that practices with shoes.

    Besides daily use feet, and variations on the shaft, which insurance largely pays for (I had about $2K out of pocket), all sport specific feet and variations come straight out of the practitioner's pocket, at least in the states. Those run $30-$50K, and that's for running, fencing, and the like.

    My particular set up is for people with high activity lifestyles - running, doing trails, bicycling, rowing, and whatever sport I can get into that allows for prosthetics. Swimming doesn't allow prosthetics for paralympics. Judo doesn't allow it. Bjj doesn't allow it. Haven't talked with aikido sensei yet, but kinda assume that I'm not even going to be allowed to practice that particular art. Dunno. May ask. Most karate do allow it, but haven't seen the setup for sparring yet. Don't know if I'll go that route as I'm not a kick/punch type of person.

    Right now, I need to start walking. Walking up stairs and down will be a challenge. Yippee! Challenges. But, as I progress, I'll have a better idea of what's what.
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    noboru

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    practice iaido, kendo, jodo, judo with handicap

    Post by noboru on Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:19 pm

    Here is link with some budo videos. There are people with some handicaps and practice budo (judo, kendo, jodo, iaido) very nice and serious. Their mind is big. They are nice examples for other people. I think, that if practice judo could be imposible with your handicap now, so you can start practice other budo. It could be way for you.

    http://www.kokkidojo.cz/?p=3833
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 am

    I posted a detailed look at my everyday prosthesis. You can read about it and take a look at the pictures at my blog:

    http://staceyknapp.altervista.org/blog/lets-take-closer-look-shall/

    I'm not sure how any of that can be adequately modified to make it safe for training partners. Sure, padding can be applied to the outside in copious quantities, but one good foot sweep, and I think things would be bruising at the least. I suppose I could use an actual peg leg and have that padded substantially, but if I stepped on somebody, it would be really bad. Further, the amount of padding over the socket would make things really strange for partners, and the more padding over the whole thing, the less I'd be able to actually feel my partner in newaza or with some throws.

    classicschmosby

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by classicschmosby on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:01 am

    Let me know if this is a stupid idea, but would it be possible to have a "stuffed" leg; a leg that is essentially a duffel full with some kind of foam. This may solve the problem with the leg being too hard, but brings new problems: how to join to the leg, what density of foam to allow the judoka to put weight on the leg without injury risk to partners, how to allow the leg to still bend at knee or ankle(if necessary).
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:17 am

    Yeah, I don't see this as being available anytime soon, but that would have to be the direction to go - maybe various grades of stuffing with a core that could support the judoka yet not injure the training partners. And there would still have to be input to the judoka somehow so that a leg wouldn't accidentally smother or otherwise cause damage in some unknown way.

    With the general interest in amputee judo and other grappling sports, it's not going to be close to a moneymaker, so would require a huge r&d outlay with not much gain, proportionally.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:58 am

    I think one thing that needs to be kept in perspective is that the natural human body is not 100% soft either. Knees, elbows, skull, ankles wrists and heels already provide numerous potential points for painful impact. Neither is the sensitivity 100% reciprocal even with complete nerve endings. You don't feel the same sensation in your heel as an opponent would feel in their gut if you hit them with a side kick.
    So now we're hypothetically dealing with a an appendage with perhaps not zero but greatly compromised bio-feedback. You're going to get some response via the socket and will need to learn to interpret that. Obviously not as easy as with the natural limb, but there's something.
    I think more to the point, there's proper application of waza. Even able bodied people need to learn to apply technique in a safe manner. This would need to be worked out in the dojo, starting slow and easy and building up to randori speed, but I imagine it's doable. (yeah I know... easy for ME to say). It just seems to me that if people can learn to intercept a 90 mph fastball or a Wimbledon-grade tennis serve, with what amounts to an artificial appendage, one could learn to intercept an ankle Sasae-like with a prosthetic in a form and speed appropriate to the motion. Would often be like receiving a volleyball serve or an ice hockey pass, you can intercept but slow or catch rather than rebound full force.
    Certainly the financial barriers are huge, and you can't count on the USA Paralympic movement when Amputee judo is not even a thing (yet...?). I know in Canada the War Amps arev very active in supporting research and accessibility. I'm proud to have donated to them for over 20 years.
    I'm wondering if there's a similar group in the States.
    http://www.waramps.ca/home/
    For anyone in Canada, consider a donation. The Key-Tag program alone makes it worthwhile.
    Maybe a GoFundMe or similar style crowd-sourcing campaign. Again, hypothetically speaking, I could see interest in funding a grass-roots, get Amputee-Judo into the Paralympics movement.
    Is there enough interest? We'll never know unitil somebody tries.
    Will be interesting to see if the Judo-rich countries like Japan and France take the lead on this. Would be a lot easier to get the necessary numbers and funding in places like that.
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    Fritz

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Fritz on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:45 pm

    Stacey wrote:Yeah, I don't see this as being available anytime soon, but that would have to be the direction to go - maybe various grades of stuffing with a core that could support the judoka yet not injure the training partners. And there would still have to be input to the judoka somehow so that a leg wouldn't accidentally smother or otherwise cause damage in some unknown way.
    Thats why a spoke about "wooden leg" in one of my posts ;-)
    That means something "simple" of course with some padding around, maybe with a small flexible plate as foot instead such high tech "spring" joint.
    But that seems to be future, i understand you in your blog so, that next big task is to train you muscles to bend your leg, that sounds struggling ...




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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:22 am

    Fritz wrote:
    Stacey wrote:Yeah, I don't see this as being available anytime soon, but that would have to be the direction to go - maybe various grades of stuffing with a core that could support the judoka yet not injure the training partners. And there would still have to be input to the judoka somehow so that a leg wouldn't accidentally smother or otherwise cause damage in some unknown way.
    Thats why a spoke about "wooden leg" in one of my posts ;-)
    That means something "simple" of course with some padding around, maybe with a small flexible plate as foot instead such high tech "spring" joint.
    But that seems to be future, i understand you in your blog so, that next big task is to train you muscles to bend your leg, that sounds struggling ...


    I'm working on it. Stairs, especially controlling my knee as I release from one step so I'm not allowing the materials to kick my leg out straight.

    The other thing is making sure my hip is hitched up where it should be, which feels really odd. My hip has dropped on my left side substantially over the years, so getting it up is something that has to happen. I notice this most when walking up stairs as I tend to bonk the toe a lot.

    Right now it's just moving, and moving as much as I can. Amazing how quickly I sweat and how quickly I tire just doing normal things.

    Laundry any one?
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    Stacey

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Stacey on Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:25 am

    My prosthetist is working on a stump cover that will give me better grip and hopefully save me from mat burns on my stump. Once I've got that, I intend to roll a bit with the bjj types. If I can get 10 minutes in? zI'll have an idea of what else I need to do to eventually get throwing.

    I've been working nonresistance to the front/back/outside/inside of my stump. Pain levels are getting much lower, so hopefully this becomes something much more active in practice rather than a limb to avoid, or just a kick stand.

    Gus

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    Re: Adapted Judo

    Post by Gus on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:27 am

    Stacey wrote:My prosthetist is working on a stump cover that will give me better grip and hopefully save me from mat burns on my stump. Once I've got that, I intend to roll a bit with the bjj types. If I can get 10 minutes in? zI'll have an idea of what else I need to do to eventually get throwing.

    I've been working nonresistance to the front/back/outside/inside of my stump. Pain levels are getting much lower, so hopefully this becomes something much more active in practice rather than a limb to avoid, or just a kick stand.

    So sorry to hear about your accident Stacey. However I am very glad to hear you are adopting a fighting spirit and a positive attitude though.  I think you are right starting with the groundwork - standing may take a while to adapt, get the right prosthetic and training partners.  I dont know if this is inspiring or just annoying to mention this  - but there is actually a wrestler with no arms or legs who regularly competes and wins :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvxc8S5ybS4

    Ill follow your blog anyway to see how things develop. Best of luck.

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    Re: Adapted Judo

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