E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    Power in judo

    Share
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:41 pm

    Researching something to discuss power in judo with my students, I recently found a mid-1930s book that has a tiny section on power.

    But it aligns power with 'ki', which is pretty interesting. 'Ki' very seldom is discussed in judo.

    I need to translate in detail, but at first glance it says something to the effect:

    Power and ki (気) become one
    when (one's) entire body is coordinated.
    In this, (one's) ki is aroused,
    and causes (one's) limbs to move.
    Thusly this happens easily,
    (movement / technique) becomes natural.

    。。。。more later

    wdax

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by wdax on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:56 am

    Sounds familiar.... Kito-ryu has some explanations about the relation between "ki" and "force ("ryoku") in it´s densho...

    DougNZ

    Posts : 403
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:49 am

    Nice find. Thank you for sharing.
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:25 am

    wdax wrote:Sounds familiar.... Kito-ryu has some explanations about the relation between "ki" and "force ("ryoku") in it´s densho...
    There's no reference here but it is effortless, just flows in a few sentences. Doesn't seem made up on the spot.
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:10 pm

    I've reconsidered, think it better to use 'strength' instead of 'power'. Probably doesn't matter in most languages, I think it better in English. In classic prose only, power could be better but I'll use this in the dojo.

    So the whole entry reads:

    *****

    Strength and ki (気) become one
    when (one's) entire body is coordinated.
    In this, (one's) ki is aroused,
    and causes (one's) limbs to move.
    Thusly this happens easily
    and becomes natural.
    If not so,
    and (one) pointlessly strains,
    and puts strength into (one's) limbs,
    moving heavily,
    (one) will not skillfully harmonize arms and legs.

    Again, it is good to use strength in accordance
    with the principle of 'flexibility' 柔*.
    The principle of flexibility is represented by the words
    "If pushed, pull;
    if pulled, push."
    That is,
    it is not resisting (one's) opponent's strength,
    moreover, while adapting,
    use it (against your opponent).

    * read 'yawara' or 'jû' as in 'jûdô'

    Feel free to use but please provide appropriate credit.
    Translation copyright Aug 2017, Lance Gatling, Embassy Judo, Tokyo

    DougNZ

    Posts : 403
    Join date : 2013-01-28

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:03 pm

    Power is probably a better fit, biomechanically.  Strength works well there, though.
    avatar
    Reinberger

    Posts : 141
    Join date : 2013-12-02

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Reinberger on Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:59 pm

    I suppose Kanō-shihan was still alive, when that text was released? I ask, because I was under the impression, that the whole concept of Ki was dismissed by Kanō-shihan as being too old-school and esoteric, and therefore had no place in his scientific Kōdōkan Jūdō?


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:56 pm

    Reinberger wrote:I suppose Kanō-shihan was still alive, when that text was released? I ask, because I was under the impression, that the whole concept of Ki was dismissed by Kanō-shihan as being too old-school and esoteric, and therefore had no place in his scientific Kōdōkan Jūdō?
    Kano shihan was alive and active.

    AFAIK, Kano shihan himself never 'denied' ki as such. But he did write in terms of biomechanics, and did not mention 'ki'. He mentions in particular one quasi esoteric concept in another field but not in terms of judo.

    He always seemed positive - unless he lost an argument. Then, he could get pretty petty when his suggestions were not adopted, and could argue nonstop. One colleague called him 'the most stubborn man in Japan'. But he could take on a lot of different views if they did not directly conflict with his.

    In fact, years ago I found a long introduction written by Kano shihan for an old martial arts book that has a very serious take on 'ki'. Kano shihan wrote at length of the importance of the tradition, the presentation, and the importance of maintaining that tradition. All without mentioning 'ki', which was the most striking thing about the book.

    At the time I showed it to another judo researcher, who almost begged me not to disclose it. He apparently believed it would exacerbate an acrid discussion being held on the old forum. I didn't disclose it; most folks couldn't read past the bare superficialities if that. All in all, it's not very important, but it does illustrate that Kano shihan well knew of the concept of 'ki' and held it in substantial regard.

    But I took it as evidence that he believed in ki as an interesting, worthwhile traditional concept, while not using it himself.

    I probably should have disclosed it but after reading it and absorbing the message, after time I lost interest and moved on. It's just another interesting aspect of a very complex gentleman who knew a lot of people, a lot of very interesting, talented people.

    NBK

    wdax

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by wdax on Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:43 am

    One big problem is, that "ki" is an old concept, that explains how to use ones body to generate force. Usually force is explained by Newton´s mechanics, in human activities in the discipline of biomechanics. To use both concept side-by side, it would be necessary to explain "ki" with biomechanics to bring both concepts together without contradicting each other.

    This is possible, but I doubt, that the knowledge for this was available for Kano in pre-war time....
    avatar
    Y-Chromosome

    Posts : 130
    Join date : 2015-06-02
    Location : The Great White North

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:31 am

    wdax wrote:
    To use both concept side-by side, it would be necessary to explain "ki" with biomechanics to bring both concepts together without contradicting each other.

    Would that not be tantamount to changing the meaning and intentions of other's writings by redefining their terminology retroactively?

    At the very least, going forward, we would have to acknowledge that the "ki" we talk about in terms of mechanics is not the same "ki" that traditional authors spoke about, which was a form of vitalism.
    Moreover, if we have to change the meaning of ki to use the word, why use it all?
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:58 am

    Y-Chromosome wrote:
    wdax wrote:
    To use both concept side-by side, it would be necessary to explain "ki" with biomechanics to bring both concepts together without contradicting each other.

    Would that not be tantamount to changing the meaning and intentions of other's writings by redefining their terminology retroactively?

    At the very least, going forward, we would have to acknowledge that the "ki" we talk about in terms of mechanics is not the same "ki" that traditional authors spoke about, which was a form of vitalism.
    Moreover, if we have to change the meaning of ki to use the word, why use it all?

    I think rather Wdax was making the case to change my translation
    from 'strength' and ki
    to 'power' and ki
    as those terms match better.

    I could accept that. I made a different case above, but believe that he has a good point. I'd probably change it back.

    Such is the difficulty of translating Japanese into English. Someone once described it not as word for word but descriptions of pictures.

    wdax

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by wdax on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:46 pm

    It´s not my intension to redefine anybodies writings/translations or redefine terms (like "ki").

    In some sources we find explanations how to generate force/strength/power by the use of "ki". The translation NBK provided here is one of them, Kito-ryu is another. Aikido has "ki" in the name of the art...

    Kano on the other hand was aware of these concepts, but prefered to explain techniques and the underlying principles by using the laws of Newton´s mechanics (in other words "biomechanics") and not using the "ki"-concept.

    My point is, that these approaches can exist side-by-side without contradicting each other as two sides of the same medal. But I doubt, that knowledge in biomechanics in Kanos days was evolved high enough to do that. That´s why I think, he never tried.

    Anatol

    Posts : 190
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Anatol on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:01 am

    Hi Lance

    Strength and ki (気) become one
    when (one's) entire body is coordinated.
    In this, (one's) ki is aroused,
    and causes (one's) limbs to move.
    Thusly this happens easily
    and becomes natural.

    Would you be so kind to provide me the Kanji/Hanzi for "strength" and "natural" in your text?

    Would be interesting, if "strength/power" is  勁力 and "natural" 自然.

    On a more general note, Qi (energy) and Jing (essence) and Shen (spirit)  = San Bao and terms like hara and kokoro are just terms of science of nature at their time, originated in China and used for Martial Arts in Japan. Nothing esoteric or religious - just classic Daoism and Neoconfucianism and TCM. "The soft overcomes the hard and the flexible the rigid" is a quote from Laozi.

    Thanks!
    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:33 pm

    Anatol wrote:Hi Lance

    Strength and ki (気) become one
    when (one's) entire body is coordinated.
    In this, (one's) ki is aroused,
    and causes (one's) limbs to move.
    Thusly this happens easily
    and becomes natural.

    Would you be so kind to provide me the Kanji/Hanzi for "strength" and "natural" in your text?

    Would be interesting, if "strength/power" is  勁力 and "natural" 自然.

    On a more general note, Qi (energy) and Jing (essence) and Shen (spirit)  = San Bao and terms like hara and kokoro are just terms of science of nature at their time, originated in China and used for Martial Arts in Japan. Nothing esoteric or religious - just classic Daoism and Neoconfucianism and TCM. "The soft overcomes the hard and the flexible the rigid" is a quote from Laozi.

    Thanks!
    Hi, Anatol,

    Power / strength was 力。I think natural was 自然. I moved a stack of papers on my desk and it's buried in there someplace, I'll have to find it later.

    It is interesting, I think.

    For other folks, from Wiki:

    Three Treasures or Three Jewels (Chinese: 三寶; pinyin: sānbǎo; Wade–Giles: san-pao) are theoretical cornerstones in traditional Chinese medicine and practices such as Neidan, Qigong, and T'ai chi. They are also known as Jing Qi Shen (Chinese: 精氣神; pinyin: jīng-qì-shén; Wade–Giles: ching ch'i shen; "essence, qi, and spirit"). Despeux summarizes.

    Jing, qi, and shen are three of the main notions shared by Taoism and Chinese culture alike. They are often referred to as the Three Treasures (sanbao 三寶), an expression that immediately reveals their importance and the close connection among them. The ideas and practices associated with each term, and with the three terms as a whole, are complex and vary considerably in different contexts and historical periods. (2008:562)

    This Chinese name sanbao originally referred to the Taoist "Three Treasures" (from Tao Te Ching 67, tr. Waley 1958:225, "pity", "frugality", and "refusal to be 'foremost of all things under heaven'") and subsequently translated the Buddhist Three Jewels (Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha).
    ......

    Anatol

    Posts : 190
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Anatol on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:28 pm

    Hi Lance

    If it is 力, it is Neoconfucianism. I was looking for a connection to Taijiquan. 勁力 is "force with a direction/intention".

    Maybe you remember your quote by Katsu Kaishū (from a calligraphy?) on the old Judo Forum, which has daoist origin:

    With an empty mind
    (wu xin, mu shin)
    enter
    the naturalness/ spontanity (ziran)
    of
    the mysterious/wounderful (miao)

    Without any action (wu wei)
    !
    after all
    (you will) transform (hua)
    to spirit (shen)


    As far as I remember you said, that Katsu Kaishū was kind of a mentor to the young Kano Jigoro.

    wdax

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by wdax on Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:18 pm

    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:54 am

    NBK wrote:
    Anatol wrote:Hi Lance

    Strength and ki (気) become one
    when (one's) entire body is coordinated.
    In this, (one's) ki is aroused,
    and causes (one's) limbs to move.
    Thusly this happens easily
    and becomes natural.

    Would you be so kind to provide me the Kanji/Hanzi for "strength" and "natural" in your text?

    Would be interesting, if "strength/power" is  勁力 and "natural" 自然.

    On a more general note, Qi (energy) and Jing (essence) and Shen (spirit)  = San Bao and terms like hara and kokoro are just terms of science of nature at their time, originated in China and used for Martial Arts in Japan. Nothing esoteric or religious - just classic Daoism and Neoconfucianism and TCM. "The soft overcomes the hard and the flexible the rigid" is a quote from Laozi.

    Thanks!
    Hi, Anatol,

    Power / strength was 力。I think natural was 自然. I moved a stack of papers on my desk and it's buried in there someplace, I'll have to find it later.

    It is interesting, I think.

    For other folks, from Wiki:

    Three Treasures or Three Jewels (Chinese: 三寶; pinyin: sānbǎo; Wade–Giles: san-pao) are theoretical cornerstones in traditional Chinese medicine and practices such as Neidan, Qigong, and T'ai chi. They are also known as Jing Qi Shen (Chinese: 精氣神; pinyin: jīng-qì-shén; Wade–Giles: ching ch'i shen; "essence, qi, and spirit"). Despeux summarizes.

    Jing, qi, and shen are three of the main notions shared by Taoism and Chinese culture alike. They are often referred to as the Three Treasures (sanbao 三寶), an expression that immediately reveals their importance and the close connection among them. The ideas and practices associated with each term, and with the three terms as a whole, are complex and vary considerably in different contexts and historical periods. (2008:562)

    This Chinese name sanbao originally referred to the Taoist "Three Treasures" (from Tao Te Ching 67, tr. Waley 1958:225, "pity", "frugality", and "refusal to be 'foremost of all things under heaven'") and subsequently translated the Buddhist Three Jewels (Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha).
    ......

    The Japanese for 'freely, at will' is 自在 'jizai' not 'shizen'.

    Anatol

    Posts : 190
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Anatol on Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:14 am

    Hi Lance

    自在 is a compound of 自 "self" and 在 "in the middle of doing something" = zizai (chin.) jizai (jap.) = freely, at will

    and

    自然 is a compound of 自 "self" and 然 "so" = ziran (chin.) shizen (jap.) = natural, spontaneously

    The difference is huge.

    In zizai you move freely according to your mind (shin) in ziran you move natural according to your belly (hara).

    Judo is one of the "Gei Do" (Art Way) and in my opinion especially a "Hara Gei" (Belly Art).


    Hi wdax,

    thanks for the link but it didn't work for me. Anyway seems to be a very interesting book, I didn't know:

    The Art of Aikido: Principles and Essential Techniques








    wdax

    Posts : 181
    Join date : 2013-01-22

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by wdax on Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:30 am

    avatar
    NBK

    Posts : 1128
    Join date : 2013-01-10
    Location : Tokyo, Japan

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by NBK on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:15 am

    Anatol,

    I take your point regarding conscious thought versus unconscious, spontaneous thought/action.

    So, not so Taoist. More neoConfucian?

    In a hurry, I didn't think that through as far as I should have. But good comments, thanks to both. So, also incorporating Wdax's earlier one on strength versus power, another version might be:

    *****

    Power and spirt (気) become one
    when (one's) entire body is coordinated.
    In this, (one's) ki is aroused,
    and (one) causes (one's) limbs to move.
    Thusly this happens easily,
    freely**.
    If not so,
    and (one) pointlessly strains,
    and puts strength into (one's) limbs,
    moving heavily,
    (one) will not skillfully harmonize arms and legs.

    Again, it is good to use power in accordance
    with the principle of 'flexibility' 柔*.
    The principle of flexibility is represented by the words
    "If pushed, pull;
    if pulled, push."
    That is,
    it is not resisting (one's) opponent's strength;
    moreover, while adapting,
    use it (against your opponent).

    * read 'yawara' or 'jû' as in 'jûdô'. The entire phrase, often repeated in classic judo texts, is 'jû no ri' 柔の理, the 'principle of flexibility' cf: The San Lüe, the Three Strategies of Huaung Shingong
    ** 自在 jizai = at will, freely

    Feel free to use but please provide appropriate credit.

    Translation copyright Sep 2017
    Lance Gatling
    Embassy Judo, Tokyo
    Facebook: www.facebook.com/usejc

    PS - I will start another thread regarding Katsu Kaishu's poem.

    Anatol

    Posts : 190
    Join date : 2014-01-20

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Anatol on Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:16 pm

    Hi Lance

    The first half is definitely more neoconfucian thought than daoist. The short poem by Katsu Kaishū is very daoist, having all the important key terms of Daoism like "wu xin/mus shin" 無心 = no heart-mind, "ziran"自然 = self so, natural, spontaneous and "wu wei" (er wu bu wei) 無為 = "not doing but nothing is left undone" and "shen" = spirit.

    What is more daoist in your poem is the second part with the "principle of Ju" (ju no ri) = principle of the soft, yielding, flexible, pliant, adaptable" originating from the Laozi (the soft overcomes the hard and the flexible the rigid) also the "Yin Yang" 陰陽 "If pushed, pull; if pulled, push"

    Laozi 36

    What is in the end to be shrunk must first be stretched. Whatever is to be weakened must begin by being made strong. What is to be overthrown must begin by being set up. He who would be a taker must begin as a giver. This is called perception of the nature of things. Soft and weak overcome hard and strong.

    Laozi 43

    The softest thing in the universe overcomes the hardest thing in the universe. That without shape can enter where there is no room.

    >Laozi 78

    >Under heaven nothing is more soft and yielding than water. Yet for attacking the solid and strong, nothing is better; It has no equal. The weak can overcome the strong; The supple can overcome the stiff. Under heaven everyone knows this, yet no one puts it into practice.

    In changing your translation you made a little slip in the entry line.

    Power and spirt (気) become one

    気 = Qi/Ki = vital energy is never "spirit" 神 (shen) or "heart-mind" 心 (xin). You have to keep "ki" or translate with "vital energy", which is maybe the best translation to english regarding the qualities and functions of "Qi/Ki".

    Thanks Lance for your work and translation!


    Sponsored content

    Re: Power in judo

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:27 pm