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    JudoStu

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    Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:40 pm

    When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.



    Thanks


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    Davaro

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:57 pm

    I think your instructor may have miscommunicated or is possibly just naive.

    There are plenty of possible attacks from the back, including the obvious ude-garami, Juji's and sankakus etc.

    Perhaps, he was trying to say it should not be a go-to as ideally we want to be on top to allow oasekomi-waza. I personally prefer being on the bottom in newaza randori as well, however being on top allows a good (better) chance of passing the legs and gaining oasekomi

    In a shiai, however, I would never recommend trying to get on the bottom position purely due to time limits imposed. Often, if the guy on the bottom is attacking and the guy on top is idle, they would get stood up. There is more chance that the guy on top, if attacking, would be allowed more time to complete his attempt.


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    JudoMojo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoMojo on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:00 pm

    JudoStu wrote:When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.



    Thanks

    Guess it depends if your good at it. Open guard is basically my go to thing on the ground and I usually prefer to fight from my back, I've seen and done randori with quite a lot of high level pure judo guys who like the open guard (butterfly specifically if you know the bjj terminology). See Craig Fallon's turnovers for example. He isn't the only one who does turnovers like that at an international level. In the context of Judo competition It could be seen as defensive ie: It's avoiding osaekomi, but I think without time limits and a ref it is a fairly offensive position, more so than being turtled up anyway.

    JudoStu

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:36 pm

    I agree that, under the current rules, being on your back is not the best position to be in with regards to attacking but I’ll probably compete twice this year. Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?


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    Davaro

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Davaro on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:54 pm

    JudoStu wrote:I agree that, under the current rules, being on your back is not the best position to be in with regards to attacking but I’ll probably compete twice this year. Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?

    Absolutely. Hence my point on a possibly naive instructor. In newaza randori, one should not be limited and should be able to freely explore newaza.


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    accident_prone

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by accident_prone on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:54 am

    i read an interview with ryan hall from 2009 where he talks about switching from a game based on submissions off of his back (especially triangles) up through purple belt, to be more about getting top position (or the back) and finishing with a choke.

    his argument was that at the top levels of competition that is the only strategy that works, and i am working on switching my own game to reflect that philosophy.

    Dave R.

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Dave R. on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:55 am

    JudoStu wrote:Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?

    Good luck finding a club that meets your needs and wants. Unfortunately almost all Judo clubs are like this as just about every coach believes they have the next Olympian in their club.

    genetic judoka

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:22 am

    I play off my back almost exclusively. I have a very good top game but I prefer the bottom. my sensei used to discourage it too, on the grounds that it was a riskier position, given that if the guy on top passes, it can get ugly. however I pointed out that it can get just as ugly for the guy that was on top if the guy on bottom sweeps. he no longer complains about my preference for the bottom because he's seen how many matches I've finished from there via choke or armbar.

    maybe your sensei just thinks you're not very good off your back, but doesn't wanna say so Cool


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    JudoStu

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:37 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?

    Good luck finding a club that meets your needs and wants. Unfortunately almost all Judo clubs are like this as just about every coach believes they have the next Olympian in their club.



    I'm 40 years old and have only been doing Judo 3 years, so hardly Olympian status. Also, all of the clubs seniors are the wrong side of 30. I can maybe understand this philisophy with the juniors who have the time to compete more and could one day compete at the highest level.

    BTW I have no issues with being shown competition techniques or at least doing some training with competition in mind but dont think it should be the only method of teaching Judo.


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    JudoStu

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:39 am

    accident_prone wrote:i read an interview with ryan hall from 2009 where he talks about switching from a game based on submissions off of his back (especially triangles) up through purple belt, to be more about getting top position (or the back) and finishing with a choke.

    his argument was that at the top levels of competition that is the only strategy that works, and i am working on switching my own game to reflect that philosophy.

    Ryan Hall is a BJJ guy though isn't he? I would suspect that most Judoka develop a top game first, I just seem to be the exception.


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    JudoStu

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:45 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I play off my back almost exclusively. I have a very good top game but I prefer the bottom. my sensei used to discourage it too, on the grounds that it was a riskier position, given that if the guy on top passes, it can get ugly. however I pointed out that it can get just as ugly for the guy that was on top if the guy on bottom sweeps. he no longer complains about my preference for the bottom because he's seen how many matches I've finished from there via choke or armbar.

    maybe your sensei just thinks you're not very good off your back, but doesn't wanna say so Cool

    Nah i'm a Green belt which i've been told equals black belt in BJJ where Newaza is concerned:lol:

    Seriously though, Im better off my back than playing top game (ok my top game does suck:D.)

    Newaza is easily the best part of my Judo game. One of the other coaches actually structured a whole lesson around how to pass my guard, so i must be doing something right.


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    Taiobroshi

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Taiobroshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:36 am

    Your teacher sounds wrong- sometimes they just say wrong things. Blacks belts are humans, last I checked. That said, online isn't the best way to go about critiquing your sensei since we only ave your words to go on. For example, if you're a beginner and your sensei taught you that you can't grab the belt in o-goshi (which is wrong), it may not because he doesn't know that- rather, it is probably because you're less likely to pull up on the belt and tsuri goshi this way.

    Regardless, a lot the development of the open guard has come from THE CHOICE of the person on the bottom to stay there and deal with an opponent who is standing (as opposed to just standing up to match them). Because the person on bottom has to wait for the other person engage before formulating his plan, the guard more reactionary and therefore more defensive. Why top or bottom needs to be called either is beyond me. This is why Flavio Canto doesn't always get what Flavio Canto wants- because often he fake sutemi wazas without real control over the opponent and hopes they'll attack him on his back. With this tactic he forfeits control over the match to the opponent, which more recently manifests in people working to disengage and say "fuck this, I'm not attacking him on his back." Playing a "top game," which is natural extension of nage waza techniques (which follow the same physical principles as sweeps), allows you to control the flow of the match. These rules aren't cut and dry obviously.

    The comment earlier about Ryan Hall, which tactically implies that most subs come from the top or the back is true- you have more secure options on top and from the back than you do off your back. If I'm in tate shiho gatame, you can't disengage. That's reflective of a more positional game than a guard game which, as GJ, is a choice, but the philosophies of judo and BJJ both favor the most efficient position. Also, the reason why it's very hard to submit good guys from the guard isn't because they're doing anything beyond comprehension- they're just very in tune with the basic rules of groundwork: keep posture, control the hips, and have a dominant grip. It think most of the Metamoris matches were finished from top position and most of the time, for the person on bottom, was spent defending guard passes rather than attacking. Youtube Kron Gracie vs. Otavio Sousa for an example.

    But if you're not competing why does all this matter? The better question is, what are your goals during practice and why do you do randori in the first place?

    judoratt

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by judoratt on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:09 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?

    Good luck finding a club that meets your needs and wants. Unfortunately almost all Judo clubs are like this as just about every coach believes they have the next Olympian in their club.

    What happened to Dave lite? Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:37 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    accident_prone wrote:i read an interview with ryan hall from 2009 where he talks about switching from a game based on submissions off of his back (especially triangles) up through purple belt, to be more about getting top position (or the back) and finishing with a choke.

    his argument was that at the top levels of competition that is the only strategy that works, and i am working on switching my own game to reflect that philosophy.

    Ryan Hall is a BJJ guy though isn't he? I would suspect that most Judoka develop a top game first, I just seem to be the exception.

    The first ne waza I was taught was fighting from my back. How to use the legs, etc, and simple reversals to osaekomi. I suspect that a lot of guys of my generation had the same experience.

    Nowadays I see it less and less in Judo, with more emphasis on attacking a prone/turtled opponent.

    tom herold

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:06 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:
    accident_prone wrote:i read an interview with ryan hall from 2009 where he talks about switching from a game based on submissions off of his back (especially triangles) up through purple belt, to be more about getting top position (or the back) and finishing with a choke.

    his argument was that at the top levels of competition that is the only strategy that works, and i am working on switching my own game to reflect that philosophy.

    Ryan Hall is a BJJ guy though isn't he? I would suspect that most Judoka develop a top game first, I just seem to be the exception.

    The first ne waza I was taught was fighting from my back. How to use the legs, etc, and simple reversals to osaekomi. I suspect that a lot of guys of my generation had the same experience.

    Nowadays I see it less and less in Judo, with more emphasis on attacking a prone/turtled opponent.
    I could agree no more!
    It is the well-known problem. For about 30 years the ground combat disappears more and more from the judo.
    Does somebody believe, judokas like Masahiko Kimura or Tokyo Hirano would have added themselves from him (excellent) to ground fighters of the BJJ allow to impress?

    We should not maybe forget that BJJ has developed from the judo.
    Mitsuro Maeda was judoka as we know.

    Today now it would be right if the judokas to themselves fetched back the lost knowledge and skill of the ground combat from the BJJ.
    Unfortunately, it does not seem to interest many that the old knowledge is there still and waits only for a "rediscovery".

    As long as in 99% of the judo clubs only this is coached what the topical competition rules permit, the degeneration of the judo shall not be detained.

    Some "unconvincable" traditionalists like I brace themselves to this development though against, but we are too a few to be able to cause really something.

    PS:
    I find frightening to have to see in other judo clubs that most (sport) judoka are not able to dominate her opponent from the "Guard" really or to defeat him from that position.
    I find as frightening that they have a little to no notion of how one passes the "Guard" actually.
    If I see what is understood in most judo clubs by "arm locks" or "strangleholds", I would like to cry.

    It is embarrassing that still so many experienced judokas are defeated by BJJ beginners in the ground combat quite easily.
    Would it not have to order our pride to change this intolerable state as quickly as possible?

    Dave R.

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Dave R. on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:45 am

    judoratt wrote:
    Dave R. wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?

    Good luck finding a club that meets your needs and wants. Unfortunately almost all Judo clubs are like this as just about every coach believes they have the next Olympian in their club.

    What happened to Dave lite? Rolling EyesRolling Eyes

    My apologies, you are right. It came off as snarky. In all honesty the post I was responding to struck a nerve as that is one of my pet peeves regarding how Judo is taught and how coaches treat the older membership. It really is hard for me to find a club where the older membership is treated the same way as the younger ones. If I were to take surfing lessons in Florida with a group you can be sure I would be given the same amount of attention and consideration in learning the activity without any regard to whether or not I'm going to enter surfing competitions. The same could be said for most activities. I think JudoStu's statement that I responded to resonates with a lot of people. Some people don't think it's a problem but I do and I think the issue can impact the growth of Judo over the long term.

    Sadly, I was serious about my statement on coaches believing they have the next one. That has been my experience. I don't have anywhere near the experience in Judo as you do but after seven years that is what I have noticed.

    Taiobroshi

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Taiobroshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:47 am

    The way I perceive the initiation of ne waza in shiai is that it needs to be continuous from standing, in that you use the energy or position gained from a throw to work a ground technique. If a situation happens in which one participant is able to disengage, the ground work experience becomes a consensual game and ceases to be something natural. Somebody sitting on their butt and scooting towards you and you trying to pass their guard instead of leg kicking them is not natural. As a judoka, your job is continue the flow of energy in an efficient and logical way that will work to your advantage, and that affords you control over the situation.

    The problem that competitors have is that they don't know how to create macro-level progress that takes full advantage of their previous movement. The biggest mistake I see people do during shiai in terms of attacking turtle is defaulting to taking the back, even when they are facing their opponent. Inevitably, their opponent bellies out because by making a pin to the back they have time to become deadweight and stall.

    What's funny to me is that the "traditionalists" who complain about the loss of newaza in modern judo really really want to see more guard work in shiai. Those things are great to practice as principled exercises and also a lot of low-impact fun, but how do the highly evolved forms of guard play out in our competitions and philosophy? Shouldn't the paradigm of efficiency be the top position? The stylistic differences between BJJ and Judo are due to the different ways we start, in that groundwork is allowed in BJJ to start with one person on the ground and one person standing who are not engaged. Judo starts standing and the ne waza part of it is supposed to start off of a big movement or throw that creates opportunity for it to start. Imagine a match between a butt scooter and Iliadis- nothing would ever happen! Assuming the butt scooter has no standing skills, he has no way to force Iliadis to engage whereas Iliadis can decide. In other words, the gate to using ne waza is having good enough standing technique to enforce your will on your opponent which is most clearly embodied by a top game rather than a bottom game. More subs in high level grappling competition happen from the top, so the bottom game is important in that it defends attacks from the top. Attacks from the bottom are another form of defense, but you see a pretty sharp drop off of success rates of the simple arm bar from guard vs. the simple arm bar from mount when you get to the brown belt level in BJJ. Osaekomi is another form of defeat analogous to a submission (bare with me), so in judo you also see more victories on the ground from the person on top than the person from bottom. I see more chokes from the back than I do arm bars from guard...

    tom herold

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:14 am

    Good evening, Taiobroshi.

    What's funny to me is that the "traditionalists" who complain about the
    loss of newaza in modern judo really really want to see more guard work
    in shiai.
    I did not say I wish to see more guard work in modern judo sport competitions.

    Judo sport competitions are not my cup of tea. Too much rules.
    My students (and so did I until few years ago) take part in a lot of submission wrestling, grappling, freefights (including punches and kicks) ... and other competitions.
    And there the "guard game" works definitely, even to let your opponent not kick you if he stands and you not.
    This is my experience.


    Those things are great to practice as principled exercises and also a
    lot of low-impact fun, but how do the highly evolved forms of guard play
    out in our competitions and philosophy?
    Again: I am not interested in the degenerated sporty form of what today is called in judo a "shiai".
    On international level we can see there very high performances of power, athletics, dynamic ... and we hardly see judo for the purposes of the founder.
    How does this agree on itself then with that what Kano himself said and wrote about his judo?
    I can't find that an effective pulled "Guard" is against the principle of"Seiryoku Zen'yo" ...


    Shouldn't the paradigm of efficiency be the top position?
    Why?
    There are such a lot of extremely effective attacks from the "Guard" position ...
    My experience in grappling competitions and in submission wrestling showed me that most of the "toeholds" and ankle locks can be much better used from the "down under" position.
    It is really nice to do that and it is very, very simple.
    I think you will know Masakazu Imanari?
    Have again a look at his "toeholds" and "ankle locks" and you will see what I mean.
    Wink


    The stylistic differences between BJJ and Judo are due to the different
    ways we start, in that groundwork is allowed in BJJ to start with one
    person on the ground and one person standing who are not engaged.
    Sorry, but this is not quite correct.
    There are a lot of competitions in BJJ beginning in standup position.
    And in the submission wrestling competitions its the same.
    In Sambo too.


    Judo starts standing and the ne waza part of it is supposed to start off
    of a big movement or throw that creates opportunity for it to start.
    Imagine a match between a butt scooter and Iliadis- nothing would ever
    happen!
    Hmmm ...
    Sorry, but ...
    I like Iliadis much.
    But imagine a match between Iliadis and Masakazu Imanari.
    In few seconds Imanari would have a toe hold or an ankle lock - from the "down under" position.
    Lot of fighters won't believe that, and Imanari showed them that they are in mistake.
    Allright, ankle locks and toeholds are not part of "modern" sport judo.
    Why?
    The submission wrestlings showed us that these kind of locks are not more dangerous than arm locks.



    Assuming the butt scooter has no standing skills, he has no way to force Iliadis to engage whereas Iliadis can decide
    Please, have a look at Masakazu Imanari and then try to repeat that statement.
    Wink

    I do not want to be unpolite, ok?
    But seems that you simply do not consider that there are substantially more technical draughts in the ground combat than sports judoka this generally believe.
    I do recommend again to have a look at Masakazu Imanari.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkM9psCL9ec

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ywGN9e0iY


    Look at the other vids of Imanari, there are a lot of.

    Maybe you will agree that Imanari's opponents rather want to stay in standup fighting?
    Maybee you will agree that Imanari's opponents even punch and kick to avoid the "ground game" ...?
    I think, Iliadis never practised punching an kicking, do you agree?
    Maybee you will agree that Imanari acts like Kano said: "Seiryoku Zen'yo" ...?

    His opponents are not beginners. They are well known and successful fighters.
    I would really interested in to see how Iliadis is trying to avoid such attacks like Imanari does.
    Wink

    And please believe me - I don't want to be impolite and I do not want to have the big mouth.
    But I am now for 41 years very active on the mat.
    In judo.
    And I have learned such a lot of things ... from my teacher and from teachers of other systems.
    And from time to time there were much more "judo" in what I could learn from Sambo teachers or from submission wrestlers or from BJJ guys than in "modern" sport judo.
    That is what I have learned.

    Kindest regards
    Tom


    Last edited by tom herold on Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

    Taiobroshi

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Taiobroshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:49 am

    I think you misunderstand the point of my post a little bit. First, shiai is an intended part of Judo- I didn't say Olympic Judo and I didn't say a particular cycle's rule set. The point of shiai is to get Ippon, which has a deep philosophical meaning both in the action of submitting/throwing/pinning the opponent and the way in which you do it. It should be done efficiently, as in with the fewest steps possible and the greatest amount of energy economy.

    Second, I realize fully that BJJ competitions start standing- however, the common situation in which one person sits and beckons the other person to attack without prior contact just doesn't happen in judo. As you said,a well-timed guard pull follows our princicples, but sitting on the floor and waiting for you opponent to attack you does not. I bring up the leg kicking because of the Pride matches with Sakuraba and Royce where he basically just tore their legs apart because they became used to the idea that the opponent would engage the way they wanted them too, without controlling them first. In shiai or shiai-like randori, you're supposed to act like you would in a real fight in that you use physical judo principles to manipulate an aggressor into a position where you have control. As a golden rule, sitting down on the floor or laying flat on your stomach are not real-life solution

    Third, I never discredited the guard- rather I don't believe it should be emphasized in exclusion to playing the top. However, if you want the guard to be emphasized, the top game has to be developed first since in shiai (not randori where anything can happen) you need people that will attack in order for you play guard. In randori, you can set the rules with you and your partner and you can get quite good at certain positions. However, I there is a definite positional hierarchy in judo, submission grappling, sambo, BJJ, and life that implicity, traditionalists not concerned with sport should more focused on. If you want to do judo as way to enhance your life, you should make the base of your techniques applicable in many contexts- not just within the "sport." For this reason, I think people should first develop their top game. You are more secure mounted than playing guard, which is why, when I end up on the bottom, my focus is to sweep and regain the top position. Gravity is an ally when you're small like me and defending a taller attacker with longer limbs makes open guard much more difficult to work with.

    Obviously this is my opinion and you've been on the mat for 28 more years than I have, but I think my points are valid! study I've also learned a lot, no doubt from different places than you have.



    Last edited by Taiobroshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)

    tom herold

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:24 pm

    Hi Taiobroshi,

    I think you misunderstand the point of my post a little bit.
    This maybe so and if so I want to apologize.


    First, shiai is an intended part of Judo- I didn't say Olympic Judo and I didn't say a particular cycle's rule set.
    Ok.



    The point of shiai is to get Ippon, which has a deep philosophical
    meaning both in the action of submitting/throwing/pinning the opponent
    and the way in which you do it. It should be done efficiently, as in
    with the fewest steps possible and the greatest amount of energy
    economy.
    I do agree.
    But ... the the fewest steps possible and greatest amount of energy economy would than be a punch or a kick, leading immediately to k.o., isn't it?
    Laughing


    As you said,a well-timed guard pull follows our princicples, but sitting
    on the floor and waiting for you opponent to attack you does not.
    Yes, I do agree.


    As a golden rule, sitting down on the floor or laying flat on your stomach are not real-life solution
    Yes, I do agree again.
    More or less.
    Have again a look at Masakazu Imanari.
    His opponents want to stay in upright position, want to kick him, want to punch him.
    And he gets them catched to the floor, with ankle locks and toe holds.
    Seems like it could be also work in reality, doesn't it?
    Would be not my first choice, but properly done like Imanari ... an aggressor will get broken his ankle faster he can say "Stop!".
    This is what I do believe, and I say that from the view of my much experiences with real violence in reality.
    It's what I know ... others maybe have a different point of view.



    If you want to do judo as way to enhance your life, you should make the
    base of your techniques applicable in many contexts- not just within the
    "sport."
    Yes, tell that to me ...
    Wink

    If you would bit now about my vita you would not tell me this ... (no offense!)
    Very Happy


    For this reason, I think people should first develop their top game.
    This I do see in a different way.
    In real fights on the so called "street" you will go down if you are attacked unpredictable.
    This is, by the way, same thing Tokio Hirao Sensei said to my own teacher ...


    Gravity is an ally when you're small like me and defending a taller
    attacker with longer limbs makes open guard much more difficult to work
    with.
    If that works for you, everything is ok.
    Nothing wrong with it.
    I do have only a different point of view.


    Obviously this is my opinion and you've been on the mat for 28 more years than I have, but I think my points are valid! I've also learned a lot, no doubt from different places than you have.
    This is the point ...
    We both have a different sight.
    Nothing wrong with it.
    Again: if it works for you, everything is ok.
    I have good reasons to do it in a different way than you do.
    And you have good reasons too.

    Very Happy

    nomoremondays

    Posts : 122
    Join date : 2013-01-03
    Location : Looking for Stars (sort of)

    Re: Newaza

    Post by nomoremondays on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:11 pm

    judostu, you say specifically that uke is between your legs and you are on your back. are you completely on your back? like a plank? when uke is between your legs are you closed up as in closed guard? if the three answers are yes i am going to go on a limb and say your instructor is right. Regardless of how awesome royce gracie was using it, playing with a planked out closed guard player is super boring for the most part and I really wouldn't find it odd if your sensei discourages that.
    Check out creamyBaileys thread called seated guard. That is a good free flowing newaza position. Hugely common in judo all over. Technically you are not even on your back, albeit it is a sort of defensive posture.

    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 59
    Location : Seattle

    Re: Newaza

    Post by judoratt on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:50 pm

    Dave R. wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    Dave R. wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:Why should all my training be geared towards Shiai when this is not my main reason for learning Judo?

    Good luck finding a club that meets your needs and wants. Unfortunately almost all Judo clubs are like this as just about every coach believes they have the next Olympian in their club.

    What happened to Dave lite? Rolling EyesRolling Eyes


    My apologies, you are right. It came off as snarky. In all honesty the post I was responding to struck a nerve as that is one of my pet peeves regarding how Judo is taught and how coaches treat the older membership. It really is hard for me to find a club where the older membership is treated the same way as the younger ones. If I were to take surfing lessons in Florida with a group you can be sure I would be given the same amount of attention and consideration in learning the activity without any regard to whether or not I'm going to enter surfing competitions. The same could be said for most activities. I think JudoStu's statement that I responded to resonates with a lot of people. Some people don't think it's a problem but I do and I think the issue can impact the growth of Judo over the long term.

    Sadly, I was serious about my statement on coaches believing they have the next one. That has been my experience. I don't have anywhere near the experience in Judo as you do but after seven years that is what I have noticed.

    I don't have a problem with your post at all Dave I was just ribbing you a little. Thanks for coming to the new forum. Very Happy

    JudoStu

    Posts : 212
    Join date : 2013-01-04
    Age : 44
    Location : UK

    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:58 pm

    nomoremondays wrote:judostu, you say specifically that uke is between your legs and you are on your back. are you completely on your back? like a plank? when uke is between your legs are you closed up as in closed guard? if the three answers are yes i am going to go on a limb and say your instructor is right. Regardless of how awesome royce gracie was using it, playing with a planked out closed guard player is super boring for the most part and I really wouldn't find it odd if your sensei discourages that.
    Check out creamyBaileys thread called seated guard. That is a good free flowing newaza position. Hugely common in judo all over. Technically you are not even on your back, albeit it is a sort of defensive posture.



    In this instance I wasn’t on my back because I pulled guard, we started Newaza with me in turtle and my opponent attacked. He turned me on my side so I got to the guard position before he could get a pin. From there I pushed one of his arms out and immediately attacked with San gaku-jime. He got out but what the hell, its randori. There’s no winning and losing, I was just trying to be really quick and aggressive off my back.



    BTW San-gaku-jime is the technique I have most success with. I have long legs so it suits me and I can catch quite a lot of people in it. I dont always finish, and certianly against the dan grades I often end up with them passing and pinning me but again its all practice.


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    nomoremondays

    Posts : 122
    Join date : 2013-01-03
    Location : Looking for Stars (sort of)

    Re: Newaza

    Post by nomoremondays on Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:54 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:judostu, you say specifically that uke is between your legs and you are on your back. are you completely on your back? like a plank? when uke is between your legs are you closed up as in closed guard? if the three answers are yes i am going to go on a limb and say your instructor is right. Regardless of how awesome royce gracie was using it, playing with a planked out closed guard player is super boring for the most part and I really wouldn't find it odd if your sensei discourages that.
    Check out creamyBaileys thread called seated guard. That is a good free flowing newaza position. Hugely common in judo all over. Technically you are not even on your back, albeit it is a sort of defensive posture.



    In this instance I wasn’t on my back because I pulled guard, we started Newaza with me in turtle and my opponent attacked. He turned me on my side so I got to the guard position before he could get a pin. From there I pushed one of his arms out and immediately attacked with San gaku-jime. He got out but what the hell, its randori. There’s no winning and losing, I was just trying to be really quick and aggressive off my back.

    Stu, thats quite disheartening then. If you are in turtle and uke has managed to bring you to your side, it is more than acceptable to then try to go to 'guard' and launch am attack from there. I cannot imagine what your sensei would rather have you do instead in that scenario. Maybe he wanted you to get to turtle again and try a reversal from there? But I think attacking from turtle is a higher level skill than attacking from guard. I am surprised. Did you ask him what is expected?

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:10 am

    JudoStu wrote:When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.



    Thanks

    I don't think there is a black and white answer to this? Being defensive can often be in reality being offensive. The guard, as you call it, is a tool, like all tools it certainly has its place. Like all tools one needs to learn when to use it and when to avoid it. A classic example of this would be my time of Sofia University with the squad. If one went into the guard while fighting a female I became toast. I had to fight from the knee position and attack in other ways. If I ended up on my back it would have been over. I would have found two lumps behind my ears and they would not be the correct anatomical place for my testes!

    The guard can be a brilliant tactic and wonderful position to fish a partner into ones net, then again it can be a suicide position depending on who one is fighting.

    Now lying on one chest is a defensive posture I greatly discourage as is the ?turtle? posture.

    Mike


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