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    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:25 pm

    JudoStu wrote:When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.

    Hi Stu,
    I will start of "lite"ly

    The idea that wrapping your legs around your opponent is a defensive measure comes from the fact that in shia you get into this position because you have been thrown, otherwise you would be on top, or you have just escaped from osaekomi by wrapping your legas around Tori to achieve Toketa. Although you cannot score directly from this position it does not mean that you cannot attack.
    I remeber as a kid Mr Otani praising the strengths of being on your back in Newaza randori, saying that you know exactly where your partner is while having a large omount of control over them and nobody can attack you from behind.

    NOW the bad part

    I FEEL THE LITE IS GOING OUT
    Twisted Evil

    I have only skimmed the answers here but wtf do we have people answering with "what we do in bjj" or how to punch, kick and bend toes.
    This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.

    @ Admin
    sorry I did try but can you now please change my name back to sodo Very Happy

    atb

    sodo

    Daniel D.

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2013-01-24

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Daniel D. on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:56 pm

    sodo lite wrote:This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.


    Thank you for your concerns, but for some of us the atemi waza (punching and kicking) are a part of
    judo which we still like to practice.
    For a bit more information on atemi waza i'd like to refer you to the following thread: http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t84-atemi-waza

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:09 pm

    Daniel D. wrote:
    sodo lite wrote:This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.


    Thank you for your concerns, but for some of us the atemi waza (punching and kicking) are a part of
    judo which we still like to practice.
    For a bit more information on atemi waza i'd like to refer you to the following thread: [url=http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t84-atemi-waza
    http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t84-atemi-waza[/quote[/url]]

    Hi Daniel,

    Welcome.

    One cannot in the middle of randori break out into atemi waza. One cannot in the middle of the nage no kata all of a sudden as tori hit uke? I am badly tying to illustrate that atemi waza are indeed an integral part of kodokan judo but like all the parts that come together to make the whole we have to practice what we do at an appropriate time under appropriate circumstances.

    I am delighted to see posters here interested in the lost teachings of atemi waza. In 10 years you young guys will be writing in the same fashion about judo katame waza as that is also being rapidly eroded due to crazy competition rules.

    There right time and the right place for all things in life.

    Pleased you like the atemi waza. Out of interest how do you learn and practice them in your dojo?

    Very best wishes,

    Post often,

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:18 pm

    Daniel D. wrote:
    sodo lite wrote:This is the JUDO techniques forum kicking, punching, biting, scratching, tickling has NOTHING to do with judo so please keep this BS out of the judo techniques section.


    Thank you for your concerns, but for some of us the atemi waza (punching and kicking) are a part of
    judo which we still like to practice.
    For a bit more information on atemi waza i'd like to refer you to the following thread: http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t84-atemi-waza

    Sorry but my answer got lost. so here the (almost) politically correct version Very Happy


    I do not know what you are training but if it is with kicking and punching (apart from a few very limited attacks in kata) you are NOT doing judo.

    Judo and Judo techniques are quite well defined, why the füßk some people kid themselves that kicking. punching, neck cranks, foot and toe locks etc.. belong is beyond me.

    TBH a Judo club that emphasises kicking, punching and SD in it's advertising is either a sign of gross incompetence or a
    McDojo.

    atb

    sodo

    Daniel D.

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2013-01-24

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Daniel D. on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:15 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Hi Daniel,

    Welcome.
    Thank you very much. Very Happy
    Please be patient with me and my answers, as i am still a beginning
    student of judo and therefore have a rather limited insight into most matters.

    Hanon wrote:One cannot in the middle of randori break out into atemi waza. One cannot in the middle of the nage no kata all of a sudden as tori hit uke?
    Indeed, using atemi waza in normal randori, without anyone expecting would be a very
    stupid idea. I did not answer to advocate such behaviour, but to offer a contradicting
    oppinion to "sodo lite"'s claim of atemi waza not being part of judo. Smile

    I am badly tying to illustrate that atemi waza are indeed an integral part of kodokan judo but like all the parts that come together to make the whole we have to practice what we do at an appropriate time under appropriate circumstances.
    Your effort is greatly appreciated by many, for i would feel very lost, had i to explain
    it in your stead, as i am, as i mentioned before, just a beginner.


    Hanon wrote:Pleased you like the atemi waza. Out of interest how do you learn and practice them in your dojo?

    To be absolutely honest, i am, where i live, not even part of a physical judo dojo.
    I am part of a very small group of people around here which try to learn judo from
    Tom Herold and train together, if we manage, at least once a week.
    Tom, whom we see as our teacher does live quite a bit away from us, so we currently
    only see him when he teaches at seminars.

    As of now we are mostly still learning the mechanics by applying atemi waza in a non
    harmful manner to a partner.
    For any more questions i would like to refer you to Tom and the thread you opened
    yourself, because my answers can not be that fulfilling. Wink



    Thanks again,
    i hope my answers are at least a bit satisfying. Smile

    Daniel


    P.S.:
    @sodo lite:
    I hope some of your questions, which you might have, are answered with this as well. Smile

    tom herold

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:33 am

    Dear Sodo,
    I do not want to be impolite, but did you ever read some writings of he founder Kano Jigoro himself?
    You will find there a lot of statements Kano himself gave about the use of atemi waza in judo.
    I can recommend these books:

    "Mind over Muscle" (Writings from the Founder, summarised by Naoki Murata)

    "Judo Memoirs" edited by Watson (it's a translation of the book ""Judoka toshite no Kano Jigoro", in English: "My Life as a Judoka" by Kano Jigoro, written down in 1928 by Ochiai)

    You can find other very good literature, for instance Sakujiro Yokoyama's "Judo Kyohan".
    As you may know Sakujiro Yokoyama was a very close student of Kano Jigoro.
    We can find in Yokoyama's book this:

    To know how and where to strike or kick is not sufficient for applying atemiwaza effectively as is the case in other tricks.
    You
    must first learn to move abaout freely and unrestrainedly by means of
    the practice of other branches of jûdô in order to be able to apply
    these tricks
    .

    Even if you were able to hit any part of your enemy's body with
    your hand or foot, it would not be effective, unless you are skilful in
    striking, poking, and kicking.

    Not only, therefore, you must learn where an how to hit and practice it, but also you must try to acquire skill in striking, poking and kicking by constant practice
    (Yokoyama Sakujiro "Jûdô Kyohan", 1915, S. 293)

    Wink
    Kindest regards

    Tom

    Sorry for coming OT.


    Last edited by tom herold on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:15 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

    Fritz

    Posts : 102
    Join date : 2013-01-16

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:14 am

    Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)


    _________________
    Best regards

    _Fritz_

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:16 am

    Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

    We are in the techniques section of a JUDO forum and NOT the bjj for wannabe's section, a judoka does not need to worry about striking and kicking neither in randori nor shai. Judo is a sport/art (physical education) and although the training gives more selfconfidence in dangerous situations and the techniques may be of some help it is not in itself a form of self defence, nor is there any evidence that it was ever meant to be. Where is JonZ when you need him? Very Happy

    atb
    sodo

    tom herold

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:25 am

    Dear Sodo,

    We are in the techniques section of a JUDO forum
    Yes, we are indeed.

    Do you agree that Kano Jigoro as the FOUNDER of Kodokan Judo is the highest authority in judo?
    Do you agree that only Kano is able to give a definition what judo is and what judo is not?
    If you agree, I want to recommend reading the books I mentioned above.

    You will find that Kano himself wrote a lot about atemi waza (i.e. the punching and kicking techniques of judo).
    He wrote a lot about how to use, when to use ...

    Have a look in the books I recommended, please.

    Punches and kicks are in the curriculum of the Kodokan Judo from begin.
    Did you read what Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote about how to practise atemi waza?
    I cited it in my last posting.
    Please read it.
    Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote this in 1912 (the book was edited in 1915).
    In 1912 Kano was living.
    If Sakujiro Yokoyama would have written complete nonsens ... don't you think Kano Jigoro would have said something about this?

    You maybe never will have practised atemi in your training.
    That's ok.
    But it is a wrong conclusion there would be not such principles and techniques in judo.
    Please, read the writings of Kano himself.

    Fritz

    Posts : 102
    Join date : 2013-01-16

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:47 am

    sodo lite wrote:
    Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)
    We are in the techniques section of a JUDO forum and NOT the bjj for wannabe's section, a judoka does not need to worry about striking and kicking neither in randori nor shai. Judo is a sport/art (physical education) and although the training gives more selfconfidence in dangerous situations and the techniques may be of some help it is not in itself a form of self defence, nor ws it ever meant to be. Where is JonZ when you need him? Very Happy
    Sorry but i dont understand your point...
    You can read (thanks to tom herold) lots of statements of Kano covering the atemi topic;
    that BJJ stems from Kodokan Judo via Maeda is well known fact too i thought...

    Ok if you think Judo = "IJF rules" then you do not need to discuss the atemi, neck&leg lock stuff, maybe by the end of the year you do not need
    to worry about Sukui-Nage, Kata-Guruma, Tawara-Gaeshi, Kibisu-Gaeshi, Kuchiki-Daoshi anymore... And in a few years maybe there is no need
    to discuss ne-waza anymore... Evil or Very Mad

    By the way, its interesting to hear the word "self confidence" in relation with judo by people like you very often...
    The interesting question is where at hell this "self confidence" should come from?


    _________________
    Best regards

    _Fritz_

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:48 am

    Hi Tom,

    We are getting WAY off topic here, Stu's question was if the "Guard" was a defensive position or not, why not just leave the BS and give him an answer that it deserves from a judo point of view.

    Do you agree that Kano Jigoro as the FOUNDER of Kodokan Judo is the highest authority in judo?
    I agree that Kano was the founder of judo, after only 3 years martial arts training overall, so how much of an expert would he have been?
    Judo developed under Kano but he also hat very many other interests, business, political and sport which suggest that although he loved judo it was not his be all and end all in life after Kano died judo developed much further and it is highly unlikely that he would now be considered the highest authority.

    Do you agree that only Kano is able to give a definition what judo is and what judo is not?
    How can he, he has been dead for 80 years and judo has progressed since then.

    If you agree, I want to recommend reading the books I mentioned above.
    I have read them.

    You will find that Kano himself wrote a lot about atemi waza (i.e. the punching and kicking techniques of judo).
    He wrote a lot about how to use, when to use ...

    You forget that Kano was not only a judoka but studied other forms of ju jutsu and started to develop judo after only a few years of training, his first concepts were not clearly defined as his writtings show. on top of this he was a manipulative business man and politician which means you cannot take all that he say's as gospel alà Konrad Adenauer

    „Was interessiert mich mein Geschwätz von gestern.“
    Very Happy


    Have a look in the books I recommended, please.

    Punches and kicks are in the curriculum of the Kodokan Judo from begin.
    Did you read what Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote about how to practise atemi waza?
    I cited it in my last posting.
    Please read it.
    Sakujiro Yokoyama wrote this in 1912 (the book was edited in 1915).
    In 1912 Kano was living.
    If Sakujiro Yokoyama would have written complete nonsens ... don't you think Kano Jigoro would have said something about this?

    Yokoyama came from a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu background and was politicaly utilised by Kano as one of the "four Guardians" so it is very is unlikely that he would publicly correct him. BTW how good are the translations of Kano and Yokoyama's works?

    You maybe never will have practised atemi in your training.

    Sure I have practiced punching and kicking but I never pretended it was judo.

    atb

    sodo


    Last edited by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:57 am; edited 2 times in total

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:53 am

    Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

    I think it then becomes MMA?

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:01 am

    Way of topic now and starting to replicate a thread that is already debating the use of Atemi in judo. With respects to al concerned if atemi are going to be debated perhaps the other thread is the most appropriate place for this debate?

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:06 am

    Hanon wrote:Way of topic now and starting to replicate a thread that is already debating the use of Atemi in judo. With respects to al concerned if atemi are going to be debated perhaps the other thread is the most appropriate place for this debate?

    Mike

    agreed alien

    atb

    sodo lite

    sodo

    Posts : 168
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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:10 am

    [Hi Fritz,
    By the way, its interesting to hear the word "self confidence" in relation with judo by people like you very often...
    The interesting question is where at hell this "self confidence" should come from?[/quote]

    It comes with almost any sport/art that is taken seriously and trained in such away that you improve physical fitness, stamina and strength while also pushing you to or beyond your limits on a regular basis.
    Judo does not have a monopoly on this.

    atb
    sodo lite


    Last edited by sodo lite on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:45 am

    sodo lite wrote:[Hi Fritz,
    By the way, its interesting to hear the word "self confidence" in relation with judo by people like you very often...
    The interesting question is where at hell this "self confidence" should come from?

    It comes with almost any sport/art that is taken seriously and trained in such away that you improve physical fitness, stamina and strength while also pushing you to or beyond your limits on a regular basis.
    Judo does not have a momopoly on this.

    atb
    sodo
    sodo[/quote]



    But I do have THE "Momopoly" on spelling mistakes. Is this some sort of coup de tare? Laughing

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:53 am

    Hanon wrote:
    sodo lite wrote:[Hi Fritz,
    By the way, its interesting to hear the word "self confidence" in relation with judo by people like you very often...
    The interesting question is where at hell this "self confidence" should come from?

    It comes with almost any sport/art that is taken seriously and trained in such away that you improve physical fitness, stamina and strength while also pushing you to or beyond your limits on a regular basis.
    Judo does not have a momopoly on this.

    atb
    sodo
    sodo



    But I do have THE "Momopoly" on spelling mistakes. Is this some sort of coup de tare? Laughing

    Mike[/quote]

    That's what you get for posting in a forum when you should be "fully" concentrating on your work Embarassed
    But as an escuse
    i) It's a typo, N&M are next to each other on a very small Kboard and I have VERY big fingers Sad
    ii) I am typing on a German KBoard and it does not speak/write very good English clown
    iii) I was distracted by my beautiful assistant in her micro skirt pig

    Take your pick pale

    atb

    sodo lite

    tom herold

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:10 am

    Dear Sodo,
    I agree that Kano was the founder of judo, after only 3 years martial
    arts training overall, so how much of an expert would he have been?
    Thank you for this statement.
    Not necessary to debate this.

    However, I've got a question or two ...
    If you do not recognize Kano as the highest authority of the judo, what you appeal then to?
    Who may define according to your opinion what judo is?

    There is a discussion about atemi here in this forum.
    Take part and prove that there never was punches and kicks and similar things in judo.


    I read what you wrote and I see there a general problem.
    I agree that Kano was the founder of judo, after only 3 years martial arts training overall, so how much of an expert would he have been?
    Judo developed under Kano but he also hat very many other interests, business, political and sport whic suggest that althjough he loved judo it was not his be all and end all in life after Kano died judo developed much further and it is highly unlikely that he would now be consodered the highest authority.
    Allright ...
    With this setting you can simply explain everything for insignificant what has left by Kano about his judo .
    Only to clear the road: Do you really try to tell me, that all the writings Kano had left about his judo are worthless and insignificant?

    Nice idea.
    No more necessary to read Kano's writings.
    No more necessary to compare his words with the state of judo today.

    Then even the biggest nonsense can be simply explained to the "advancement of the judo".
    Without one would have to take anyhow on the consideration what understood Kano by judo.

    Sorry, but this does not persuade me ...

    Yokoyama came from a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu background
    As Kano did.
    And?

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:29 am

    Hi Tom,

    Not necessary to debate this.

    Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?

    However, I've got a question or two ...

    good Very Happy
    If you do not recognize Kano as the highest authority of the judo, what you appeal then to?
    Who may define according to your opinion what judo is?

    Basically the Kodokan defines judo and judo developments, The IJF define competition rules. If Kano had lived to be 150 then yes he might still be THE authority on judo but as things are now then no.

    There is a discussion about atemi here in this forum.
    Take part and prove that there never was punches and kicks and similar things in judo.

    I kept out of that discussion for a reason (I wanted to stay lite Very Happy) it was you that brought this discussion here.

    I read what you wrote and I see there a general problem.

    Allright ...
    With this setting you can simply explain everything for insignificant what has left by Kano about his judo .
    Only to clear the road: Do you really try to tell me, that all the writings Kano had left about his judo are worthless and insignificant?

    You are putting words into my mouth Evil or Very Mad I never said that Kano or anything he wrote was insignificant.

    Nice idea.
    No more necessary to read Kano's writings.
    No more necessary to compare his words with the state of judo today.
    Again you are putting words into my mouth, Of course you can and should read Kano but you have to realise that it is not a bible and as with any other writers his writtings have to be put into the prospective of the time, place and personality of the author.

    Then even the biggest nonsense can be simply explained to the "advancement of the judo".
    Without one would have to take anyhow on the consideration what understood Kano by judo.

    It is nonsense to take the writings of a man that died 80 years ago and think that the relevance can be translated one to one into todays world. Especially if you look at his world through rose coloured glasses Rolling Eyes

    Sorry, but this does not persuade me ...

    I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to protect gullible beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock Büllsh/t silent

    Yokoyama came from a Tenjin Shinyo-ryu background
    As Kano did. And?[/quote]
    Yes but Kano developed judo as a softened down version for sport (physical education) purposes, people like Yokoyama were incorperated (bribed) into Kodokan Judo to help establish it in Japan as the prefered school sport against other ju jutsu systems like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

    atb

    sodo

    tom herold

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:59 am

    Allright then ...
    Let's see what we have.
    Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?
    I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
    You may claim he only would have had only 3 years of practise.
    But he began in age of 17 and founded the Kodokan in 1882 at age of 22.
    Five years.
    And I am sure you know that Kano furthermore until 1885 was the student of Kito Ryu. In 1885 he earned the Menkyo from Kito Ryu as you know.
    8 years then ...?

    And yes, it is possible to become an expert in close quarter combat in "only" 5 years.
    It may surprise you, but one of my own students begun 4 years ago and today he is a very successful competitor in grappling and mma.
    He is now invited to Abu Dhabi ... maybe you know the level of the competitons there ...?
    But this beside, I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
    He and his students proved again and again heir knowledge and their abilities as you know.
    So its absolutely superflously to try to debate this.


    Basically the Kodokan defines judo and judo developments, The IJF define competition rules. If Kano had lived to be 150 then yes he might still
    be THE authority on judo but as things are now then no.
    The Kodokan ...?
    Hmmm ... let's see ...
    As far as I know "the Kodokan" is always represented by persons, isn't it?
    These persons are usually judo teachers with high dan ranks.
    And as far as I know (my teacher knows a lot of them) these teachers permanent appeal to Kano.
    More still, they derive her authority in judo directly from him.

    And the "IJF" ... no, I won't say anything about the IJF.
    It is not my cup of tea.
    Only this should be said: the the IJF has awarded the authority to define what judo is to itself.


    I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to protect gullible
    beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
    Büllsh/t
    Kano himself recommended to practise punching, kicking ...
    And the "little" jointlocks were in normal judo until the early 1900's as you know.
    Then this stuff was "banned" - from the training of children.

    Our teacher Tokio Hirano showed such a lot of these things ...
    Tons of films, photos ...
    Ankle locks, toeholds, neck cranks, punches, kicks, stick work, sword ...
    Maybe a sign of his lack of competence in judo?
    affraid


    Yes but Kano developed judo as a softened down version for sport
    (physical education) purposes, people like Yokoyama were incorperated
    (bribed) into Kodokan Judo to help establish it in Japan as the prefered
    school sport against other ju jutsu systems like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.
    Hm ...
    Would you be so kind to show me the part of Kano's writings where he wrote exactly this?


    I am trying to protect gullible beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
    Büllsh/t
    Allright.
    This is a really nice job.
    So I only can wish you all the best and a lot of success.
    Very Happy

    tom herold

    Posts : 56
    Join date : 2013-01-23

    Re: Newaza

    Post by tom herold on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:12 am

    tom herold wrote:Allright then ...
    Let's see what we have.
    Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?
    I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
    You may claim he only would have had only 3 years of practise.
    But he began at age of 17 and founded the Kodokan in 1882 at age of 22.
    Five years.
    And I am sure you know that Kano furthermore until 1885 was the student of Kito Ryu. In 1885 he earned the Menkyo from Kito Ryu as you know.
    8 years then ...?

    And yes, it is possible to become an expert in close quarter combat in "only" 5 years.
    It may surprise you, but one of my own students begun 4 years ago and today he is a very successful competitor in grappling and mma.
    He is now invited to Abu Dhabi ... maybe you know the level of the competitons there ...? More, he was last year invited as a teacher to teach grappling in Russia.
    But this beside, I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
    He and his students proved again and again their knowledge and their abilities as you know.
    So its absolutely superflously trying to debate this.


    Basically the Kodokan defines judo and judo developments, The IJF define competition rules. If Kano had lived to be 150 then yes he might still
    be THE authority on judo but as things are now then no.
    The Kodokan ...?
    Hmmm ... let's see ...
    As far as I know "the Kodokan" is always represented by persons, isn't it?
    These persons are usually judo teachers with high dan ranks.
    And as far as I know (my teacher knows a lot of them) these teachers permanent appeal to Kano.
    More, they derive their authority in judo directly from him.

    And the "IJF" ... no, I won't say anything about the IJF.
    It is not my cup of tea.
    Only this should be said: the IJF has awarded the authority to define what judo is to itself.


    I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to protect gullible
    beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
    Büllsh/t
    Kano himself recommended to practise punching, kicking ...
    And the "little" jointlocks were in normal judo until the early 1900's as you know.
    Then this stuff was "banned" - from the training of children.

    Our teacher Tokio Hirano showed such a lot of these things ...
    Tons of films, photos ...
    Ankle locks, toeholds, neck cranks, punches, kicks, stick work, sword ...
    Maybe a sign of his lack of competence in judo?
    affraid


    Yes but Kano developed judo as a softened down version for sport
    (physical education) purposes, people like Yokoyama were incorperated
    (bribed) into Kodokan Judo to help establish it in Japan as the prefered
    school sport against other ju jutsu systems like Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.
    Hm ...
    Would you be so kind to show me the part of Kano's writings where he wrote exactly this?


    I am trying to protect gullible beginners from falling for this punching, kicking, cranking toe lock
    Büllsh/t
    Allright.
    This is a really nice job.
    So I only can wish you all the best and a lot of success.
    Very Happy

    Fritz

    Posts : 102
    Join date : 2013-01-16

    Re: Newaza

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:35 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

    I think it then becomes MMA?
    Hallo Mike,
    is not Judo a good example of MMA? Did not Kano "mix" several martial arts together? ;-)

    My point here was this:
    Shiai ist part of Judo, to protect the participants there are rules, so some behaviours will be forbidden.
    But what could be the reason, that shiai is necessary at the background,
    that Kano spoke about the first level of Judo in terms of "defence against attack" and "fighting in earnest" - as we can read it in the atemi thread?
    In my opinion shiai should be a safe "simulation" of the real fight.
    But according to the restrictions by the rule set regarding the dangerous/unhealthy techniques now it will be possible to show behaviours which would be
    "in real" perhaps deadly for oneself.
    E.g. Being thrown done and going into turtle or flat on stomach position - according to the rules
    - fine - referee stops fight and restarts - but in real? Okay i dont need to elaborate further, there are lots of cruel videos in the net...
    For some of this "bad" (in context of reality) behaviours there are rules to condemn them but its a recursive problem and not for all situations its possible to have a rule...
    So its our own responsibility what and how we train and teach.
    For instance i try to teach my students to avoid the turtle and instead pulling guard if below... (emphasis is on "try" ;-) ) Maybe the turtling is a
    typical german problem, i dont know...
    My opinion is, if someone studies Judo seriously, then its necessary to think about the meaning and implications of rules, tactics, techniques
    and so on.
    And if some stuff would be dangerous for oneself if tried outside the safe dojo, then it could be no judo, because first level of judo is ...

    And i have an anecdote:
    Some time ago i wanted to show some transition from an Osae-Komi to something else - armlock or choke - i don't know anymore...
    And i showed and talked about the keypoints and i was just saying: Take care about his (free) hand (or was it the knee?) it could be
    dangerous to you if he would strike and wanted to show how to avoid the danger
    - just in this moment my uke does the move (by accident) and i got headaches... ;-)


    _________________
    Best regards

    _Fritz_

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:15 pm

    Fritz wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

    I think it then becomes MMA?
    Hallo Mike,
    is not Judo a good example of MMA? Did not Kano "mix" several martial arts together? ;-)

    My point here was this:
    Shiai ist part of Judo, to protect the participants there are rules, so some behaviours will be forbidden.
    But what could be the reason, that shiai is necessary at the background,
    that Kano spoke about the first level of Judo in terms of "defence against attack" and "fighting in earnest" - as we can read it in the atemi thread?
    In my opinion shiai should be a safe "simulation" of the real fight.
    But according to the restrictions by the rule set regarding the dangerous/unhealthy techniques now it will be possible to show behaviours which would be
    "in real" perhaps deadly for oneself.
    E.g. Being thrown done and going into turtle or flat on stomach position - according to the rules
    - fine - referee stops fight and restarts - but in real? Okay i dont need to elaborate further, there are lots of cruel videos in the net...
    For some of this "bad" (in context of reality) behaviours there are rules to condemn them but its a recursive problem and not for all situations its possible to have a rule...
    So its our own responsibility what and how we train and teach.
    For instance i try to teach my students to avoid the turtle and instead pulling guard if below... (emphasis is on "try" ;-) ) Maybe the turtling is a
    typical german problem, i dont know...
    My opinion is, if someone studies Judo seriously, then its necessary to think about the meaning and implications of rules, tactics, techniques
    and so on.
    And if some stuff would be dangerous for oneself if tried outside the safe dojo, then it could be no judo, because first level of judo is ...

    And i have an anecdote:
    Some time ago i wanted to show some transition from an Osae-Komi to something else - armlock or choke - i don't know anymore...
    And i showed and talked about the keypoints and i was just saying: Take care about his (free) hand (or was it the knee?) it could be
    dangerous to you if he would strike and wanted to show how to avoid the danger
    - just in this moment my uke does the move (by accident) and i got headaches... ;-)

    The very First rule I ever learnt in judo, a rule that was repeated at nearly every club I have ever visited was

    "judo is only ever for the dojo, never, ever use judo outside."


    If someone needs self defence then learn self defence (or get a gun) anybody selling judo as a form of self defence is either a fraud or an incompetent.

    Alledegedly quoting historical texts mean nothing unless you can interpret them properly, which is something only a (real) historian can do. Anything else is just büllsh/t.

    Now can we get back to the op's original question.

    atb

    sodo

    cuivien

    Posts : 118
    Join date : 2013-01-15
    Age : 32
    Location : Norway

    Re: Newaza

    Post by cuivien on Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:05 pm

    Okay, so I'll provide some facts, then ask that this entire discussion is moved into either a separate topic concerning atemi, or that it be merged with the other thread on the same topic. Either way, it's far from the OP's original question.

    The Yokoyama quotes used have been from the English version ca. 1915. I revisited the original in Japanese, and it reads (my translation follows):

    従前の柔術では重に勝負と云う事を其目的としてものだから、投げ技や固め技を修業すと同時に、当身技をも大に修業したものです。然し秘事と称して、容易に初心の者には伝授しなかったものです。然らば、秘密にしなければならぬ程害のあろものかというに、必ずしもさうではありません。只勝負術としては頗る有力なものですから、社会萬般における秘密伝授流行の余弊を受けて教える事を惜んだものと見えます。そんな訳ですから今日では少しも秘密にする必要のない許りでなく、広く世人の之を研究して、一層其進歩発達を謀ることは、斯道のため頗る有益なことと思います。
    There's about a page more, but this captures the gist of what he's saying, I feel.

    Translation:
    As the ju-jutsu of old was primarily a thing utilized in fighting, [one] matter-of-factly studied atemi-waza as well as throwing and ground-fighting. However, by necessity this was not something beginners was initiated in. This does by no means mean that it is something bad that must be kept a secret. Rather, as [atemi] is extremely potent as a tool in combat, one regrettably sees the evil throughout all things in society as due to the fashion of "secret teachings". For this reason, I believe that there is no need to keep it (atemi) a secret, but allow people of the world to research (i.e. learn, I guess) it, and that the progress which arises from it will be extremely beneficial.

    In the "The purpose/goal of jûdô" section much earlier in the book, he writes:
    柔道の目的は:
    第一 身体の発育
    第ニ 勝負術の熟達
    第三 精神の修練
    にあるのですが、修業上から名称を付けると、
    第一 身体の発育を主とするものを練心法
    第ニ 勝負術の熟達を主とするものを勝負法
    第三 精神の修練を主とするものを修心法
    と云います。

    Translation:
    The goal of judo is:
    - Physical growth and development of the body
    - Mastery of competition techniques
    - Training of the spirit
    but expanding upon these, they become:
    - a method of tempering the spirit for the development of the body
    - a method of competition for the mastery of competition techniques
    - a method of disciplining the spirit for training of the spirit


    So yes, to a certain extent he seems positive to the teaching of atemi.
    However, I ask you to consider the fact that even in Yokoyama's book, this chapter takes up just 6 pages out of a 278 pg. book, and one of those pages is a diagram of the human body. There are no detailed explanations as to how to kick or punch, and there are no pictures demonstrating techniques.
    In the "purpose of jûdô" quote, there is very little talk about the martial, but lots of mentions about the mind and spirit.
    Furthermore, as sodo has said earlier, Yokoyama joined the Kôdôkan in April 1886, and had considerable martial arts experience from before. He quickly became one of the four guardians who accepted challenges and "protected jûdô" on behalf of Kano. It is thus very likely that he could have said "the moon is made out of blue cheese" and Kano would have let it slide Razz

    sodo

    Posts : 168
    Join date : 2013-01-11
    Location : Europe

    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:12 am

    Thank you cuivien I agree but I cannot just stand by and let somebody spread this Bullsh/t Sad and let beginners like Daniel get taken in.
    I just love these judo guru's who are in on the secret teachings of our lord Kano and are the only ones enlightened enough to actually know what judo is , which btw is not what 99.999999% of judoka think it is Very Happy

    Allright then ...
    Let's see what we have.
    Very Happy
    Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?

    No

    I will not debate Kano's knowledge.

    You cannot debate Kano's knowledge at the time because you have no idea what he knew.

    You may claim he only would have had only 3 years of practise.
    But he began in age of 17 and founded the Kodokan in 1882 at age of 22.
    Five years.

    After his teachers death he took over the ju jutsu school after only three years of training.

    And
    I am sure you know that Kano furthermore until 1885 was the student of
    Kito Ryu. In 1885 he earned the Menkyo from Kito Ryu as you know.
    8 years then ...?

    Nice try to bend the truth but we were talking about the amount of experience he had before developing his own art/sport of judo. As for Kito Ryu etc.. Kano studied and taught many arts/sports including baseball, that does not make them all Kodokan Judo or have you seen an underarm pitch doen in the dojo Very Happy

    And yes, it is possible to become an expert in close quarter combat in "only" 5 years.
    It
    may surprise you, but one of my own students begun 4 years ago and
    today he is a very successful competitor in grappling and mma.

    He may be a good fighter but is he an "EXPERT" ie able to explain all the techniques and theories? is he able to devise his own art?
    He is now invited to Abu Dhabi ... maybe you know the level of the competitons there ...?
    Again all that proves is that he can fight.

    But this beside, I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
    Why am I not surprised Very Happy

    He and his students proved again and again heir knowledge and their abilities as you know.
    So its absolutely superflously to try to debate this.

    Alot of these stories are fiction and propoganda.

    The Kodokan ...?
    Hmmm ... let's see ...
    As far as I know "the Kodokan" is always represented by persons, isn't it?
    These persons are usually judo teachers with high dan ranks.
    And as far as I know (my teacher knows a lot of them) these teachers permanent appeal to Kano.
    More still, they derive her authority in judo directly from him.

    Busllsh/t, they derive their authority from their knowledge.


    Kano himself recommended to practise punching, kicking ...
    And the "little" jointlocks were in normal judo until the early 1900's as you know.
    Then this stuff was "banned" - from the training of children.

    Check your "Facts" 1in 1900 all joint locks for kyu grades were banned. Kansetszu Waza consisted of the usual armlocks, Ashi Garami, Do jime and a selection of neck locks.
    finger, ankle and toe locks were always banned in the practice of kodokan judo.

    Our teacher Tokio Hirano showed such a lot of these things ...
    Tons of films, photos ...
    Ankle locks, toeholds, neck cranks, punches, kicks, stick work, sword ...
    Maybe a sign of his lack of competence in judo?
    affraid

    Your logic escapes me geek The fact Hirano may have demonstrated ju jutsu techniques is about as relevant to his judo as his ability to swing a golf club.


    Hm ...
    Would you be so kind to show me the part of Kano's writings where he wrote exactly this?

    Kano's goals in founding judo as a form physical education for the Japanese school system is quite well documented in his own writtings as well as in contemporary literature and newspapers as is his bribing ju jutsu teachers to convert to Kodokan judo.
    atb

    sodo

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