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    Hanon

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:24 am

    Fritz wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Fritz wrote:Beside of sodo's opinion regarding atemi, i think its not a bad idea
    to think from time to time during ne-waza about
    what could happen if the opponent would strike and kick...
    (There are some BJJ videos somewhere, dealing with this topic...)

    I think it then becomes MMA?
    Hallo Mike,
    is not Judo a good example of MMA? Did not Kano "mix" several martial arts together? ;-)

    My point here was this:
    Shiai ist part of Judo, to protect the participants there are rules, so some behaviours will be forbidden.
    But what could be the reason, that shiai is necessary at the background,
    that Kano spoke about the first level of Judo in terms of "defence against attack" and "fighting in earnest" - as we can read it in the atemi thread?
    In my opinion shiai should be a safe "simulation" of the real fight.
    But according to the restrictions by the rule set regarding the dangerous/unhealthy techniques now it will be possible to show behaviours which would be
    "in real" perhaps deadly for oneself.
    E.g. Being thrown done and going into turtle or flat on stomach position - according to the rules
    - fine - referee stops fight and restarts - but in real? Okay i dont need to elaborate further, there are lots of cruel videos in the net...
    For some of this "bad" (in context of reality) behaviours there are rules to condemn them but its a recursive problem and not for all situations its possible to have a rule...
    So its our own responsibility what and how we train and teach.
    For instance i try to teach my students to avoid the turtle and instead pulling guard if below... (emphasis is on "try" ;-) ) Maybe the turtling is a
    typical german problem, i dont know...
    My opinion is, if someone studies Judo seriously, then its necessary to think about the meaning and implications of rules, tactics, techniques
    and so on.
    And if some stuff would be dangerous for oneself if tried outside the safe dojo, then it could be no judo, because first level of judo is ...

    And i have an anecdote:
    Some time ago i wanted to show some transition from an Osae-Komi to something else - armlock or choke - i don't know anymore...
    And i showed and talked about the keypoints and i was just saying: Take care about his (free) hand (or was it the knee?) it could be
    dangerous to you if he would strike and wanted to show how to avoid the danger
    - just in this moment my uke does the move (by accident) and i got headaches... ;-)

    Hiya,
    Could I ask you to paste and copy this and start a new thread. This thread is now so distorted its impossible to answer a question as there are so many subjects covered and justice cant be done to any of them. I would also imagine the OP is unhappy to see his thread so diverted?
    Many thanks,
    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:33 am

    sodo wrote:Thank you cuivien I agree but I cannot just stand by and let somebody spread this Bullsh/t Sad and let beginners like Daniel get taken in.
    I just love these judo guru's who are in on the secret teachings of our lord Kano and are the only ones enlightened enough to actually know what judo is , which btw is not what 99.999999% of judoka think it is Very Happy

    Allright then ...
    Let's see what we have.
    Very Happy
    Why not? do you think that someone can become an expert in just 3 years?

    No

    I will not debate Kano's knowledge.

    You cannot debate Kano's knowledge at the time because you have no idea what he knew.

    You may claim he only would have had only 3 years of practise.
    But he began in age of 17 and founded the Kodokan in 1882 at age of 22.
    Five years.

    After his teachers death he took over the ju jutsu school after only three years of training.

    And
    I am sure you know that Kano furthermore until 1885 was the student of
    Kito Ryu. In 1885 he earned the Menkyo from Kito Ryu as you know.
    8 years then ...?

    Nice try to bend the truth but we were talking about the amount of experience he had before developing his own art/sport of judo. As for Kito Ryu etc.. Kano studied and taught many arts/sports including baseball, that does not make them all Kodokan Judo or have you seen an underarm pitch doen in the dojo Very Happy

    And yes, it is possible to become an expert in close quarter combat in "only" 5 years.
    It
    may surprise you, but one of my own students begun 4 years ago and
    today he is a very successful competitor in grappling and mma.

    He may be a good fighter but is he an "EXPERT" ie able to explain all the techniques and theories? is he able to devise his own art?
    He is now invited to Abu Dhabi ... maybe you know the level of the competitons there ...?
    Again all that proves is that he can fight.

    But this beside, I will not debate Kano's knowledge.
    Why am I not surprised Very Happy

    He and his students proved again and again heir knowledge and their abilities as you know.
    So its absolutely superflously to try to debate this.

    Alot of these stories are fiction and propoganda.

    The Kodokan ...?
    Hmmm ... let's see ...
    As far as I know "the Kodokan" is always represented by persons, isn't it?
    These persons are usually judo teachers with high dan ranks.
    And as far as I know (my teacher knows a lot of them) these teachers permanent appeal to Kano.
    More still, they derive her authority in judo directly from him.

    Busllsh/t, they derive their authority from their knowledge.


    Kano himself recommended to practise punching, kicking ...
    And the "little" jointlocks were in normal judo until the early 1900's as you know.
    Then this stuff was "banned" - from the training of children.

    Check your "Facts" 1in 1900 all joint locks for kyu grades were banned. Kansetszu Waza consisted of the usual armlocks, Ashi Garami, Do jime and a selection of neck locks.
    finger, ankle and toe locks were always banned in the practice of kodokan judo.

    Our teacher Tokio Hirano showed such a lot of these things ...
    Tons of films, photos ...
    Ankle locks, toeholds, neck cranks, punches, kicks, stick work, sword ...
    Maybe a sign of his lack of competence in judo?
    affraid

    Your logic escapes me geek The fact Hirano may have demonstrated ju jutsu techniques is about as relevant to his judo as his ability to swing a golf club.


    Hm ...
    Would you be so kind to show me the part of Kano's writings where he wrote exactly this?

    Kano's goals in founding judo as a form physical education for the Japanese school system is quite well documented in his own writtings as well as in contemporary literature and newspapers as is his bribing ju jutsu teachers to convert to Kodokan judo.
    atb

    sodo

    Hello Sodo,
    I only read your first paragraph. I cant see the point in being so blunt and confrontational. You are a mate of mine yet even I am put of by the tone of the way you write sometimes. Look, if you want to be heard and listend to you cannot yourself be so blunt and harsh, all you do is alienate the reader and then no one will listen to what you write. Pointless exercise and futile.
    I am not taking sides. I can see your point, I can see Toms point, I can see all points. Still remains that this is a debate and no one is going to win in a debate....Please don't think I am having a pop at you. I also don't always understand Toms point of view. To that end rather than blast him out and get personal I have been PM'ing Tom and we are making progress and coming closer to understanding each others points. Whats more we are doing so and becoming cyber mates.
    This thread is now impossible. To many branches and themes to even try and make sense of it. Several new threads need to be started where each major point here can be debated within their own right.
    Sodo my old China you are NOT protecting a novice when you write the way you have in this particular thread you just confuse them and leave them feeling all experienced senior ranks like you are rather arrogant and confrontational, hardly the example you desire them to learn from?
    Sincerely,
    Mike


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    sodo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:59 am

    Hi Mike,
    Sorry but IMHO such blatent BS needs to be called for what it is, this is nothing personal, I am not criticising Tom (or anyone else) I am criticising what he has written and presented as facts which are just not accurate and atleast one beginner believes it so much that they corrected me for my errors and lack of understanding of judo:P

    I to am not happy with the way this thread has been derailed but if the comments had been ignored then some time in the future another novice may read through this thread and actually believe what has been written purely because these "facts" were not challenged. Now atleast a reader will know that toe twisting in judo is not acceptable to everybody and they should research further before they accept one side or the other as gospel.

    atb

    sodo


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    Hanon

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:20 am

    sodo wrote:Hi Mike,
    Sorry but IMHO such blatent BS needs to be called for what it is, this is nothing personal, I am not criticising Tom (or anyone else) I am criticising what he has written and presented as facts which are just not accurate and atleast one beginner believes it so much that they corrected me for my errors and lack of understanding of judo:P

    I to am not happy with the way this thread has been derailed but if the comments had been ignored then some time in the future another novice may read through this thread and actually believe what has been written purely because these "facts" were not challenged. Now atleast a reader will know that toe twisting in judo is not acceptable to everybody and they should research further before they accept one side or the other as gospel.

    atb

    sodo
    Sodo my old apple tart, Its not what we write its the way we write it. I do not always agree with what Tom writes. I have said so. I just don't see the point in calling his opinion BS. A respected sensei like you should and must phrase your replies in a manner that represents your respected place in judo.
    Not looking for human perfection just trying to get the best from all of us as far as humanly possible. If you only knew what a hypocrite I am you would shoot me! Not a day passes living here that I don't snap at some one! In fact come to mention it just ignore me! lol
    How are you by the way?
    Mike


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    sodo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:35 am

    Hanon wrote:
    sodo wrote:Hi Mike,
    Sorry but IMHO such blatent BS needs to be called for what it is, this is nothing personal, I am not criticising Tom (or anyone else) I am criticising what he has written and presented as facts which are just not accurate and atleast one beginner believes it so much that they corrected me for my errors and lack of understanding of judo:P

    I to am not happy with the way this thread has been derailed but if the comments had been ignored then some time in the future another novice may read through this thread and actually believe what has been written purely because these "facts" were not challenged. Now atleast a reader will know that toe twisting in judo is not acceptable to everybody and they should research further before they accept one side or the other as gospel.

    atb

    sodo
    Sodo my old apple tart, Its not what we write its the way we write it. I do not always agree with what Tom writes. I have said so. I just don't see the point in calling his opinion BS. A respected sensei like you should and must phrase your replies in a manner that represents your respected place in judo.
    Not looking for human perfection just trying to get the best from all of us as far as humanly possible. If you only knew what a hypocrite I am you would shoot me! Not a day passes living here that I don't snap at some one! In fact come to mention it just ignore me! lol
    How are you by the way?
    Mike

    Hi Mike,

    you know me, I never could get the hang of this diplomacy stuff Very Happy

    I just find it important the way judo is presented and perceived and I truely believe that the only way to stop gulible people being taken in is with clear, concise and unmistakable rebuttles, politicaly correct answers lead to confusion, that is why politicians are so carefull to talk alot but say nothing Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo
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    Fritz

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Fritz on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:48 am



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    Hanon

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:41 am

    sodo wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    sodo wrote:Hi Mike,
    Sorry but IMHO such blatent BS needs to be called for what it is, this is nothing personal, I am not criticising Tom (or anyone else) I am criticising what he has written and presented as facts which are just not accurate and atleast one beginner believes it so much that they corrected me for my errors and lack of understanding of judo:P

    I to am not happy with the way this thread has been derailed but if the comments had been ignored then some time in the future another novice may read through this thread and actually believe what has been written purely because these "facts" were not challenged. Now atleast a reader will know that toe twisting in judo is not acceptable to everybody and they should research further before they accept one side or the other as gospel.

    atb

    sodo
    Sodo my old apple tart, Its not what we write its the way we write it. I do not always agree with what Tom writes. I have said so. I just don't see the point in calling his opinion BS. A respected sensei like you should and must phrase your replies in a manner that represents your respected place in judo.
    Not looking for human perfection just trying to get the best from all of us as far as humanly possible. If you only knew what a hypocrite I am you would shoot me! Not a day passes living here that I don't snap at some one! In fact come to mention it just ignore me! lol
    How are you by the way?
    Mike

    Hi Mike,

    you know me, I never could get the hang of this diplomacy stuff Very Happy

    I just find it important the way judo is presented and perceived and I truely believe that the only way to stop gulible people being taken in is with clear, concise and unmistakable rebuttles, politicaly correct answers lead to confusion, that is why politicians are so carefull to talk alot but say nothing Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo
    The "Gulible" people you speak of will within six months of judo practice be posting here telling YOU how to teach judo? Cyber judo, as such, doesn't work. The hey day of such a judo media are gone and we all know this. So much of what we debate here has been debated many times on other judo forum's. Its pretty futile really.
    If I write a strong, forceful, lets say near rude post, I am called unworthy of holding my rank.
    If I write a compassionate careful post, I am called a woozie.
    If I write a post regarding the philosophy of kano and HIS judo, I am called a bishop and hypocrite.
    You cant write right nor wrong here Sodo but we can all try to write without getting personal.
    You cant ask a poster to listen and read your words. They will choose what they desire to listen to often twisting what you write to fit within their own twisted comfort zone. There are 4th kyu sensei how are rather unwise posters, there are sho dan posters who in reality need to read more, practice an awful lot more and senior ranks who in reality know very little about judo. Its a true mixture and there is no way of pleasing every poster. Even if you stop posting that would peeve some one!
    Well well well off topic.
    Mike


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    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Hanon

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:42 am

    Fritz wrote:@Mike Hanon: The new thread is here: [url=http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t356-shiai-rules-in-context-of-kanos-first-level-of-judo
    http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t356-shiai-rules-in-context-of-kanos-first-level-of-judo[/quote[/url]]
    Thanks. I have made a contribution to kick start the new thread off.
    Mike


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    sodo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:18 am

    Hi Mike
    The "Gulible" people you speak of will within six months of judo practice be posting here telling YOU how to teach judo?
    Already happened Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
    Cyber judo, as such, doesn't work. The hey day of such a judo media are gone and we all know this. So much of what we debate here has been debated many times on other judo forum's. Its pretty futile really.
    That is why we shouldn't take it too seriously Very Happy

    If I write a strong, forceful, lets say near rude post, I am called unworthy of holding my rank.
    WHAT RANK! affraid
    If I write a compassionate careful post, I am called a woozie.
    Yeah, but you are a loveably woozie

    If I write a post regarding the philosophy of kano and HIS judo, I am called a bishop and hypocrite.
    Who is Kano? Embarassed
    You cant write right nor wrong here Sodo but we can all try to write without getting personal.
    for me personal is attacking the person, inm this thread I am just making it quite clear that some the ideas and the 2facts" backing them up are pure BS.
    You cant ask a poster to listen and read your words. They will choose what they desire to listen to often twisting what you write to fit within their own twisted comfort zone. There are 4th kyu sensei how are rather unwise posters, there are sho dan posters who in reality need to read more, practice an awful lot more and senior ranks who in reality know very little about judo. Its a true mixture and there is no way of pleasing every poster. Even if you stop posting that would peeve some one!

    Nobody is perfect, the secret is not to even try to be Twisted Evil
    Well well well off topic.

    Stu will forgive us I love you

    atb

    sodo
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    Fritz

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Fritz on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:01 am

    My experience was very often, that people who qualify the opinion of other
    as BullShit fall into two classes:

    a) the are indeed true experts on the topic
    b) they are trolls or maybe want to cover their own incompetence or lack of deeper knowledge via discrediting the others arguments...
    People of class a) regularly give evidence to their own views and points...
    People of class b) regularly ignore given evidences - because its BS, yeah...

    I dont know exactly how this comes in my mind right now... very strange...


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    Hanon

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:06 am

    Is it not time to sit a while and reflect where this thread started, where it went and where it is now? We are well away from the topic and well away from improving our knowledge. No point in this infighting. Just devalues the core of this new forum.
    Just food for thought.
    Mike


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    sodo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:44 pm

    HI Fritz,

    My experience was very often, that people who qualify the opinion of other
    as BullShit fall into two classes:

    a) the are indeed true experts on the topic
    b) they are trolls or maybe want to cover their own incompetence or lack of deeper knowledge via discrediting the others
    No you do not need to be an expert, a good basic knowledge and a good nose are usually enough to smell it

    arguments...
    People of class a) regularly give evidence to their own views and points...
    Yepp the evidence from Tom is still missing, apart from regurgitating a few myths and missinterpreting some old texts taken out of context there is no real evidence. Rolling Eyes


    People of class b) regularly ignore given evidences - because its BS, yeah...

    What evidence?

    I dont know exactly how this comes in my mind right now

    Me too

    ... very strange...

    No just BS.

    NOW can we get on an deall with the OP's question ?

    atb

    sodo
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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:54 pm

    JudoStu wrote:When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.
    Thanks

    Hi Stu,
    Finally coming back to your post Very Happy as I exlained earlier holding uke between your legs is considered a defensive position because of how you get into this püosition abe by the fact that you cannot actually score by just holding them between your legs. It is a transitional position that gives pleanty of opportunity to attack onece you have secured your defences.
    From Your profile you are a green belt, that could explain your instructors comments. Green belt is traditionally the first of the fighting grades, the point where you a student starts to explore for himself instead of just following instruction. at this point you start using the techniques learnt and develop your own style and variations. It could just be that your instructor just thinks that there are other parts of your judo that need to consolodate and develop before you move on to attacking from underneath, when you reach blue or brown things may be completely different.

    atb

    sodo
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:07 pm

    Hey Stu,

    I'll go slightly further than the above, although I agree with the Sodo comment, with uke between your legs it is a control but not a dominant position, by this I mean one of the theories of pinning arts is that you are exercising a dominance over the opponent.

    Judo recognises that the wrapping of one or two legs around the opponent negates some or all of this dominance factor as a number of reversals (sweeps) or counter plays (ie submissions) can occur. (as opposed to wrestling which controlling the opponent whilst inside the legs still counts as being pinned)

    It is a common observation from people coming into Judo from other things whereby pins don't count so much is that one of Judo's strengths is the solidity of the pin, you can only learn this via top control dominance, ideally this is learnt first then the counter plays etc are added.

    Hope that makes sense.

    Cheers
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    Re: Newaza

    Post by JudoStu on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:23 am

    sodo wrote:
    JudoStu wrote:When I do Newaza randori I tend to favour being on my back with my opponent in-between my legs (in my guard). I was told last night that being on my back was a defensive position and not a good position to be in for Judo as there aren’t many attacks one can do from there. I’m sure those of you who also train BJJ would disagree with that but just wanted your opinions from a pure Judo point of view.
    Thanks

    Hi Stu,
    Finally coming back to your post Very Happy as I exlained earlier holding uke between your legs is considered a defensive position because of how you get into this püosition abe by the fact that you cannot actually score by just holding them between your legs. It is a transitional position that gives pleanty of opportunity to attack onece you have secured your defences.
    From Your profile you are a green belt, that could explain your instructors comments. Green belt is traditionally the first of the fighting grades, the point where you a student starts to explore for himself instead of just following instruction. at this point you start using the techniques learnt and develop your own style and variations. It could just be that your instructor just thinks that there are other parts of your judo that need to consolodate and develop before you move on to attacking from underneath, when you reach blue or brown things may be completely different.

    atb

    sodo



    I’ve been away from this forum for a few days and on returning and reading my thread I wondered what the hell I had started Shocked

    I agree that there are other parts of my Newaza that I need to improve on, specifically passing Uke’s guard, which I suck at.

    However, I was on my back in this instance purely because I was told to start in turtle and was turned over. I got back to guard and then attacked straight away with San-gaku-jime. It was being told that I was being defensive which irked me.

    Thanks for your answers though.


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    hedgehogey

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by hedgehogey on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:03 am

    Back on topic, (personal attack edited out):






    Last edited by genetic judoka on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : to remove a personal attack from an otherwise useful post)
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    sodo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:11 am

    (personal attack edited out)


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:51 am

    hey guys, let's keep it civil. sodo and HH, it takes two to bicker, so I'm talking to both of you, and doing so preemptively. this thread is already ugly enough.


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    sodo

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by sodo on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:33 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:hey guys, let's keep it civil. sodo and HH, it takes two to bicker, so I'm talking to both of you, and doing so preemptively. this thread is already ugly enough.

    ahh! don't worry, I take HH'S post about as seriously as he takes mine Laughing
    atb

    sodo


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    Wandering WB

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    Re: Newaza

    Post by Wandering WB on Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:00 pm

    Learn to finish your basic armbar, triangle, cross collar choke, kimura, omoplata, head and arm choke, guillotine from the guard. Those moves work on all level of competitions and in MMA, it's just that you have be able to combine them and finish each individually.

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    Re: Newaza

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