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    Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

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    eightball

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    Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by eightball on Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:34 am

    It is not uncommon for a bully to seek to intimidate a person by getting right up in the person's face, threatening the person, then pushing the person with his chest.  This type of bravado is easily countered with a simple Yoko-otoshi, a.k.a. the lateral-drop.  Check it out.  Oh, and please leave your comments and opinions.  Thanks so much!


    DougNZ

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:23 am

    Nice mats.
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    noboru

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by noboru on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:36 am

    Nice throws techniques. Really.

    In selfdefence is bad this situation (bully). I saw some videos from street cameras conflicts. In most time attacker make some Bully short time and he give the punch to chin to opponent/defender. The defender did not see this attack and it is finished as knockout.

    Some systems teach - you have to keep safety distance. My Kraw Maga friend solves this situation easy pin (with straight fingers to neck hole - similar as horizontal karate nukite).


    I found this very effective in bully situation. This pin pressure / light strike to neck hole causes attacker returning back and you have distance and time (maai) make anything else. You don't have to hurt your attacker. Your throw will be very devastating for him.

    My friend talked me, that his Kraw Maga instructor teaches this technique as defence in bull you you have on the back wall or bar and you have not space for walking back.
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    NBK

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by NBK on Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:53 am

    Mifune sensei, dealing with bullies
    0:28 sec on
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bygJuza3AqY
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:51 am

    NBK wrote:Mifune sensei, dealing with bullies
    0:28 sec on
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bygJuza3AqY

    When being bullied by the forces of nature? Laughing
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    NBK

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by NBK on Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:14 am

    Y-Chromosome wrote:
    NBK wrote:Mifune sensei, dealing with bullies
    0:28 sec on
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bygJuza3AqY

    When being bullied by the forces of nature? Laughing

    On the tempests of fate.....

    It’s the same motion, only more elegantly, and before the clinch
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    noboru

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    first technique of the Itsutsu-no-kata

    Post by noboru on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:41 am

    NBK wrote:
    Y-Chromosome wrote:
    NBK wrote:Mifune sensei, dealing with bullies
    0:28 sec on
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bygJuza3AqY

    When being bullied by the forces of nature? Laughing

    On the tempests of fate.....

    It’s the same motion, only more elegantly, and before the clinch

    I dont know how it is similar with light strike to hole neck / adam apple / zen keibu area from Goshin jutsu no kata. I tried to find more about this first Itsutsu no kata sources and I didnt find anything similar. Only ways how to push effective - not striking or thrusting by fingers to parts of neck..

    Is it any okuden or henka to this first waza? Does the Itsutsu no kata have anything "henka" modification than described waza in kata?

    ---------------
    Technical principles of Atemi-waza in the first technique
    of the Itsutsu-no-kata in Judo:
    From a viewpoint of Jujutsu-like Atemi-waza

    Fumiaki Shishida1), Masanori Sakaguchi1), 2), Tadayuki Sato3), Yasuo Kawakami1)
    1) Faculty of Sport Sciences, Waseda University
    2) Faculty of Kinesiology, University of Calgary
    3) School of Sport Sciences, Waseda University

    http://waseda-sport.jp/paper/1514/1514.pdf

    Attachments:
    http://waseda-sport.jp/paper/1514/m1.html
    http://waseda-sport.jp/paper/1514/m2.html
    ---------------

    Thnank you for any info.

    johan smits

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by johan smits on Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:40 am

    Just to poke my nose where it does not belong.

    As far as I know Tomiki sensei had mostly experience in judo and the forerunner of aikido, that would be Ueshiba's version of Daito ryu. One of the ideas of Ueshiba was that aikido (read: his version of Daito ryu) consisted mostly of atemi. Push/strike or strike or lock or throw is one movement. If other styles of jiujitsu had the same ideas I do not know. In the original Tenjin Shinyo ryu, Itsutsu no kata was a very high level teaching. Somewhere on the net is a demo of TSR by, I think the Shibata lineage, in which you see this technique in action.
    TSR seems a logical one to ask this question.

    Happy landings.
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    noboru

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by noboru on Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:41 am

    Thank you Johan..

    I tried to watch any public demonstration of Tenjin Shinyo ryu and found this technique.

    I found one technique but not exactly the same - there is strong push or strike with palm to chest/heart. Attacker falls down back.
    time 4:36


    time 7:44


    In bully situation are there other technique - he attacks his chin and turns attacker with pusshing to chin and hand/sleeve
    time 4:38

    johan smits

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by johan smits on Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:06 am

    Hi Noboru,

    The first one is the one I meant.

    I am generalizing but I think for a conflict we should make a difference between the sort of opponent who is showing ritualistic behavior (for instance bullying),which is very often meant to establish dominance over a person in a situation, and between an oppononent who from the beginning is trying to physically damage or destroy you.
    What I find very good about the older styles of jujutsu is that a lot of them train in kata portraying common situations from daily life.^^
    Most modern systems teach how to react to something that is already an attack.
    Missing a lot of opportunities to react in different ways.

    What I mean is that if someone is trying to bully (dominate) you in a social situation a push or shove might be all that is needed to make clear they are messing with the wrong person and one does not need to damage them or be bend on their total destruction.

    Happy landings.

    eightball

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by eightball on Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:28 am

    Thanks everybody for leaving such great comments! I really enjoyed reading them and watching the videos provided!
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    Reinberger

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Reinberger on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:36 pm

    johan smits wrote:... What I find very good about the older styles of jujutsu is that a lot of them train in kata portraying common situations from daily life.^^
    Most modern systems teach how to react to something that is already an attack.
    Missing a lot of opportunities to react in different ways.

    What I mean is that if someone is trying to bully (dominate) you in a social situation a push or shove might be all that is needed to make clear they are messing with the wrong person and one does not need to damage them or be bend on their total destruction.
    That's also, what modern law demands. In my country, for example, in court the action shown in the OP most certainly would be considered as "excessive self-defence" at least, punishable by law. If the "bully" is hurt, even worse. If it would be regarded as self-defence at all, and not simply as a brawl, or as assault and battery, that is.

    BTW, doesn't the technique shown have more in common with yoko guruma, than with yoko otoshi?


    _________________
    Kind regards, Robert

    johan smits

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by johan smits on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:51 pm

    I agree with that. In my country it is the same.
    Self defence, even by teachers is ver often treated on a very shallow level. Mostly the physical/technical aspect is treated. I rather think in terms of self protection, which I feel is a wider and deeper subject. Taking physical and mental health, psychology, knowledge about law into consideration. For civiliains the physical aspect could be kept to a few techniques I think.


    Yoko otoshi/guruma. Haah, I am not going to get into that discussion.
    Being a bit of an old geezer I think most judo I see these days, does not qualify as judo to me.
    Standing upright, technical judo meant for mental and physical development, health and self defence, is hardly practiced anymore.
    What I mostly see is a form of wrestling,doing all sorts of dangerous (also to oneselves) techniques and lots of ego.

    As I said, an old geezer Razz

    Happy landings.

    eightball

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by eightball on Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:47 pm

    Can anyone explain how the kazushi works in the technique shown in this video? How are they creating so much power when they throw?

    johan smits

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by johan smits on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:41 pm

    Hi,

    I guess you mean in the yoko-otoshi clip?
    As far as I can see the kuzushi and tsukuri (fitting in to uke/partner) is done in the same moment and the kuzushi comes from slightly under the uke's centerpoint and is directed upwards.

    Happy landings.
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    NBK

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by NBK on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:04 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    johan smits wrote:... What I find very good about the older styles of jujutsu is that a lot of them train in kata portraying common situations from daily life.^^
    Most modern systems teach how to react to something that is already an attack.
    Missing a lot of opportunities to react in different ways.

    What I mean is that if someone is trying to bully (dominate) you in a social situation a push or shove might be all that is needed to make clear they are messing with the wrong person and one does not need to damage them or be bend on their total destruction.
    That's also, what modern law demands. In my country, for example, in court the action shown in the OP most certainly would be considered as "excessive self-defence" at least, punishable by law. If the "bully" is hurt, even worse. If it would be regarded as self-defence at all, and not simply as a brawl, or as assault and battery, that is.

    BTW, doesn't the technique shown have more in common with yoko guruma, than with yoko otoshi?
    The throw of the OP in Japan would probably result in charges against tori. Too much of an escalation without imminent danger of deadly force against tori or an innocent third party.

    eightball

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by eightball on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:15 am

    johan smits wrote:Hi,

    I guess you mean in the yoko-otoshi clip?
    As far as I can see the kuzushi and tsukuri (fitting in to uke/partner) is done in the same moment and the kuzushi comes from slightly under the uke's centerpoint and is directed upwards.

    Happy landings.

    Thanks for the input!

    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Hissho on Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:07 pm

    It's going to be difficult justifying that level of force against a chest bump.

    This is not to say that a chest bump or threats with an encroachment like that would not be a precursor to assault - such things often are. But this is a very damaging technique when we consider it is likely being done against someone with little or no training, and on a hard surface.

    Too often martial arts instructors utterly fail to consider appropriate context in adapting their martial knowledge to defensible use of force. I'd say this is an example of that. The overriding factor here was that it looks really cool, athletic, and devastating.

    Now, a finger in the throat notch, or a simple chest push away, with verbal commands telling someone to back up, get back, etc. is much more defensible, and, let's admit, far more efficient.

    What he does after that determines where it goes from there. A guy swinging to take your head off after the "back up" command, this throw may be justifiable (I am speaking of US laws). You tried to avoid the fight, used a non-injurious tactic to make space, gave a verbal command to back away, and he still attacked. You'd have to consider other factors in deciding to use such a technique as to whether it is actually reasonable, for the very reason that it could be quite dangerous.

    And let's consider whether it is a good idea to begin with. There are many more techniques out there available that involve less effort, less commitment, don't take you to the ground with the attacker, and won't have the potential for as much injury. Why not use one of those?
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:17 am

    I've always had my concerns about using sutemi waza in a self defence situation where a hard surface is involved.

    Setting aside the excessive force concerns (which are valid) do I want my own hands/elbows smashed into the ground, possibly crushed under the dynamic weight of both uke and myself?

    On the grass (football pitch?) or maybe on the beach, it might be option. I'd be reticent to try it on linoleum or pavement unless I practiced in a manner to keep my arms clear.

    Situation also limits tactics.
    When I read about the bully getting in your face, I immediately pictured a high school corridor with the victim backed up against a row of lockers. If space is limited due to a wall or other obstacle to your rear, a rearward sutemi of any kind is not going to be an option.

    Definitely an outdoor tactic, I guess.

    eightball

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by eightball on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:50 am

    Hissho wrote: Now, a finger in the throat notch, or a simple chest push away, with verbal commands telling someone to back up, get back, etc. is much more defensible, and, let's admit, far more efficient.

    Awesome comment!  I even found actual footage of your amazing judo put to the test!



    johan smits

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by johan smits on Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:01 am

    The technique itself makes a lot of sense. One thing is that it can be seen as a potentially very dangerous technique. Overhere anything to the throat is.
    Not by those in the in the know but unfortunately those in the know are not the ones judging our actions.
    It has happened overhere that people fighting a burglar in their own home were charged with assault.

    Funny things are happening.

    Happy landings.

    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Hissho on Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:56 am

    Good point on the hard surfaces and what they can do to you - I know several folks who injured themselves and even lost time at work or had to have surgery by landing on their knees, or hands, or tackling a suspect and combined weight landing on a hand or wrist onto pavement, or tripping or landing with the leg over a curb while attempting a take down.

    You can mitigate some of it: I know people who wear knee pads under their uniforms, or you can use takedowns that let you pull your hands out prior to landing. Takes some adaptation but it's minor for skilled people. I've only ever gotten minor scrapes and bumps and I don't wear pads. I don't do full opt sutemi waza. That being said doing tani or a move where you can land on your haunch is a better bet. I still don't like them in a violent situation because too much can go wrong. Ashi waza is a much better bet, taking care to pay attention to some things.

    Simply pressing a finger into the notch below the throat is not going to be injurious, so long as you keep your composure. As a response to someone crowding you, chest bumping, and threatening, it is totally reasonable. The REACTION to it might be more than you'd hoped for, but in itself it's reasonable. It is not a strike to the throat, which is an entirely different thing.

    People in the US get charged with assault, too, even against burglars and stuff, if the response is egregious. A lot of it is in what you articulate is happening or could likely happen at the time you use force. For instance, coming downstairs to find a burglar asleep on your couch, then shooting him, is totally unreasonable.

    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Hissho on Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:07 am

    Reposting an old vid I did on a variant of a back foot sweep (I called it tani but it's more a foot sweep), illustrating some of the points above.

    https://inharmswayblog.com/2017/03/26/tactical-tani-o/


    johan smits

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by johan smits on Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:05 am

    A friend of mine (never did a day's training in his life) got into an argument with someone in an elevator and got really angry (he and his girlfriend were being harrased ), and shoved his indexfinger right up the notch of the throat of this guy. Guy went white,staggered a bit back and the problem was over. Worked like a charm.

    You made me laugh, people stealing from you while THEY are sleeping. In Holland we call them members of parliament pirat

    Finger up their notch would serve them well.

    Happy landings.

    Hissho

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    Re: Judo Self-defense against Bully in street fight scenario

    Post by Hissho on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:33 am

    Finger up their notch...lol

    Elevator is another interesting one - very confined space, and with a third party as well....you aren't pulling off many throws that we commonly use. Some techs from against the cage, Judo moves done in MMA, could be effective.

    I've seen the eye jab or eye rake taught for this kind of situation as well. I don't teach it because it is potentially more injurious - what with scratched corneas and all. Better to use a "get off me" move that won't do any injury as a first step in these verbal domination/manipulation situations.

    All this being said, be prepared for what happens next... Many people will not take kindly to being throat checked or pushed back. If the guy doesn't back off, you'll usually get:

    1) Extreme indignation, claims that you assaulted him, you "put your hands on him," and that you are about to be sued or "lose your job" if you are in the security or law enforcement realm. Be strong on your assertiveness, and assessment and this won't be a problem.

    2) The sucker punch or attack will then launch - now they have "an excuse;" But we should be prepared to deal with that as well.

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