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    finger locks in older judo sources

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    noboru

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    finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by noboru on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:50 pm

    Hello, I have any old judo / jiujitsu book. From czech judo/jitsu pioneers. There are some finger locks techniques. Some old japanese jujutsu publications contains finger locks too.

    I watched some Goyu ryu karate videos with Morio Higaonna. In his enbu's he shows finger locks time to time. It looks very efective and could be efferctive in selfdefence.

    Some of early judo match rules from Kano and his pupils restricted fingers locks and allowed locking only elbow. It is reason why judo waza ignored these efective techniques.

    If you have any sources about finger locks techniques, please post them here.


    Last edited by noboru on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    noboru

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by noboru on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:53 pm

    Next one


    from https://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/03/14/don-draper-judo-unarmed-self-defense-from-the-mad-men-era/

    Originally from: Modern Judo and Self-Defense by Harry Ewen, a “police judo” expert.  , 1962
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    noboru

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by noboru on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:20 pm

    Here  http://anma.air-nifty.com/anma/2010/09/post-18ae.html is japanese article with some japanese old traditional chiropractic techniques and there is picture below.



    ・山口県立萩美術館:葛飾北斎 北斎漫画 六編:U154-29
    http://www.hum.pref.yamaguchi.lg.jp/ehon/E02/U0015429.jpg


    古語辞典の異体字表とにらめっこしながら、読めた部分だけ挙げると。
    ・一段目:「むねづくし」「とるてをはずす」
    ・二段目右:「むねづく、とるてを」「はずす」
    ・二段目左:「ぞくにいふ、せんりびき」(俗にいう千里引き)
    ・三段目右:「てをしめあげる」

    「千里引き」を調べてみると、「指取り:柔術などに見られる …略…。いわゆる千里引き。」とあるので、柔術で間違いなさそうです。

    いずれにせよ、江戸期の柔術や正骨の絵図を見ることが出来るというのはしあわせです。
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    NBK

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:56 am

    Tsūzoku Jūdō Zukai by Arima 1905

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    noboru

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    gyaku yubi from Judo: japanese physical culture from Arima Sumimoto

    Post by noboru on Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:11 pm

    Thank you a lot.

    Here are similar techniques from english release from 1908 of the book Judo: japanese physical culture from Prof. Arima Sumimoto - Yo(n)dan (four grade) at the Kodokwan

    Title Judo: Japanese Physical Culture being a further exposition of jujitsu and similar arts: By Sumitomo Arima
    Author Sumitomo Arima
    Publisher Mitsumura & Company, 1908
    Pages 128

    Here is one variation of previous technique in standing - technigue name Gyaku-yubi

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    noboru

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by noboru on Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:43 pm

    Short video about finger locks - some from Koboitchi group
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    Reinberger

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by Reinberger on Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:00 am



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    noboru

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    technique for strangling from the front

    Post by noboru on Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:51 am

    Thank you.
    Here is one technique (for strangling from the front) from book : F.S.Dobo, Základy jiujitsu (Basic of jujutsu), 1936, Prague


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    noboru

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by noboru on Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:59 am

    Morio Higaonna in his enbu:

    finger locks: time 3:07

    Karate gōjū-ryū (Okinawa bujutsu) - 39th Kobudo Enbutaikai Nippon Budokan 2016

    Hissho

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by Hissho on Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:15 pm

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    noboru

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    Mikonosuke Kawaishi , My method of self-defence, London, 1957

    Post by noboru on Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:06 am

    Here is some techniques from Kawaishis book.
    Mikonosuke Kawaishi , My method of self-defence, London, 1957




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    NBK

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by NBK on Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:43 pm

    noboru wrote:Here is some techniques from Kawaishis book.
    Mikonosuke Kawaishi , My method of self-defence, London, 1957





    Half of those are actually hand / wrist techniques if you look closely, but very cool, thanks.
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    Fritz

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by Fritz on Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:40 am

    I miss these techniques in the current technique listings of Kodokan and IJF ... :-/



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    NBK

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by NBK on Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:02 pm

    Fritz wrote:I miss these techniques in the current technique listings of Kodokan and IJF ... :-/

    I think there is something missing - a self defense approach to judo.

    No one will sponsor it for multiple reasons, I think, but it could be attractive to many people. Others will not be interested.

    Also teaching could be a challenge for many instructors.

    johan smits

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by johan smits on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:40 pm

    Would it be possible to rouse some interest in the self defence aspects of judo using (nearly) forgotten forms which exixt or have existed in judo?
    In the kata section I just posted about that cyclops

    By the way Kawaishi really never lost the self defence aspect in his system. To put it very simple use atemi with the throws and you got a pretty strong system. That is apart from all the locks it uses.

    Happy landings.
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    NBK

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:26 pm

    johan smits wrote:Would it be possible to rouse some interest in the self defence aspects of judo using (nearly) forgotten forms which exixt or have existed in judo?
    In the kata section I just posted about that cyclops

    By the way Kawaishi really never lost the self defence aspect in his system. To put it very simple use atemi with the throws and you got a pretty strong system. That is apart from all the locks it uses.

    Happy landings.
    I personally think that there is a lot of material for self defense curriculum within classic judo and its kata - Kime no Kata, Goshinjutsu, even Ju no Kata - but also know that no one near anyone with anyone who might effect such a change cares a fig about self defense applications or techniques.

    johan smits

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by johan smits on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm

    There is heaps of it in the kata you mention!
    I do not doubt your conclusion for a second but I really cannot understand how people can be indifferent about one of the pillars of judo.
    But that is another discussion.

    Happy landings.
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    Jihef

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by Jihef on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:24 pm

    noboru wrote: Some of early judo match rules from Kano and his pupils restricted fingers locks and allowed locking only elbow. It is reason why judo waza ignored these efective techniques.
    Hello,
    the main reason is simply SAFETY of practice, of course.


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    johan smits

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by johan smits on Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:37 pm

    The safety aspect is certainly a good reason to omit these techniques from matches. But judo is much more than just matches. Why not involve these techniques in kata? Could it be these techniques were not or barely a part of Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo ryu?
    Or maybe it was felt these techniques were contrary to the ideal of judo?

    Much to think about cyclops

    Happy landings.

    davidn

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by davidn on Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:51 pm

    Unfortunately, the greatest part of practitioners are primarily into sport judo, so they completely avoid anything not useful for competition. I was lucky to make friends with someone who allows me to drop in time to time (different clubs) and he teaches a wide variety of techniques that are not allowed in competition. Good for my judo education, and I'm an old guy who don't compete, so while it is good to know the rules for my kids, it's nice to have a resource like that.

    johan smits

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    Re: finger locks in older judo sources

    Post by johan smits on Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:27 am

    For one, I have always been more interested in "practical" judo than in matches. Judo is such a rich art when you look at it as a whole.
    I wonder how come most people are interested in matches? And I wonder if it is true. I think it is all that is offered.
    I do not see allround judoteachers teaching. I see really bad judo being taught. But hey who cares? Once in a while we invite a champion to teach a seminar (as if that is a guarantee for quality judo Shocked ) and presto practitioners feel they got something good.

    Judo is an educational system with a lot of plusses and it should be taught like that.
    I see worldclass judoplayers, making a throw, landing on their head before they throw their opponent on their head and winning.
    I do not know what that is, judo it is not.

    Sorry for the rant, sometimes I act like a grumpy 50++++++ year old.

    Happy (classical) landings.



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