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    'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

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    NBK

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    'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by NBK on Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:53 am

    I am waiting for the ever pedantic CK to return from the beyond to tell us what it is and isn't.

    Meanwhile:
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:34 am

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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:55 am

    Lance,
    Do you know what they're trying to accomplish here?  Is this to be taught to children as a pedagogical part step towards performing a more standard execution of the waza and the ukemi or is it intended as a study tool for instructors to understand how children will modify waza or to propose modified grading standards when dealing with children.
    Do you know what age group is this intended for or is meant to represent?
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    NBK

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by NBK on Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:01 am

    I think the former.

    Don't know, plan to ask if there's any written material available, the thought process, etc.

    Bear in mind that these gents teach 10-12 year olds how to do Nage no Kata - I see the results all the time. I think this is for very young children, to learn the basics of throwing and ukemi.

    'Grading' in Japan for juniors is very different from Europe or the US. It's very simple - when sensei thinks you're ready, you have a couple of competition points under your belt, and appropriate time, you start learning Nage no Kata with a similar sized / aged partner. Then perform it. That's about it.

    classicschmosby

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by classicschmosby on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:07 am

    NBK wrote:I think the former.
    'Grading' in Japan for juniors is very different from Europe or the US. It's very simple - when sensei thinks you're ready, you have a couple of competition points under your belt, and appropriate time, you start learning Nage no Kata with a similar sized / aged partner. Then perform it. That's about it.

    Is the technical examination portion of a grading in Japan primarily/ completely kata focused then? As opposed to the wider individual technique basis that seems to be more common worldwide.
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    NBK

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by NBK on Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:57 am

    classicschmosby wrote:
    NBK wrote:I think the former.
    'Grading' in Japan for juniors is very different from Europe or the US. It's very simple - when sensei thinks you're ready, you have a couple of competition points under your belt, and appropriate time, you start learning Nage no Kata with a similar sized / aged partner. Then perform it. That's about it.

    Is the technical examination portion of a grading in Japan primarily/ completely kata focused then? As opposed to the wider individual technique basis that seems to be more common worldwide.

    Yes.
    Here's the entire system in Japanese.
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/activity/grade/

    As I read it, requirements for shodan:
    ≥ 14 years of age
    ≥10 points in competition
    ≥1 year practice
    Hand, hip and leg technique portions of Nage no Kata performed well enough.

    The Japanese see dan grades very differently from the rest of the judo world. All the complicated series of technique demonstrations, written tests, years of slogging through clinics, etc. don't exist here.

    classicschmosby

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by classicschmosby on Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:14 pm

    Thank you, are the kyu grades across japan standardised and if so do you have anywhere I could read those?
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by Y-Chromosome on Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:49 am

    Leaving aside whether or not this is "kata" (although I'm fairly sure I can predict what Cichorei Kano would have to say on that) I guess my biggest question is where I would fit this into a program.

    Knowing the difficulty adolescent brown belts have getting three sets of nage no kata down cold, I'm chilled at the prospect of getting much younger less experienced students to memorize a sequence that's approximately two sets of nage no in duration, while paying sufficient attention to the details and getting everything "correct".

    Making something a "kata" will take the plasticity out the exercise and inevitably lead instructors to strive for a very fixed and idealized performance which is frankly counter-productive in an age group that already has difficulty with many aspects of "correct" judo. In particular, I'd be concerned that the amount of effort needed to perfect these modified forms would be counter-productive when the ultimate goal is to strive towards standard forms.

    I'd basically have to toss out my entire yellow belt curriculum and spend the whole time working just on this kata until it can be done more or less correctly. Then I'd have to spend another year, unlearning the habits I just burned up so much training time ingraining.

    (No... uke DOESN'T step around and put his foot on the floor... just take the d@mn¢d breakfall like a normal person!!! >:-()

    It just seems to me that kids old enough to actually pull off a sequence of this length and complexity, should be old enough to take the breakfalls and do the throws in a more standard manner. (ie. not stepping around.)
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    noboru

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by noboru on Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:53 pm

    Could be nice have to any good comment or explanation from Kodokan sensei.
    I tried to describe what I view on the video. There is correct Reihó, safe throws/fallen, Tori controls the fall of Uke, easier throwing techniques and the right unbalaning before the throw technique.

    1, Ritsurei direction to the Shomen
    2, Zarei to partner
    3, Technique similar to Sakaotoshi technique in Ura Koshikinokata - both sides
    4, Deashibarai - both sides - Uke and Tori step forward with their right foot and grab a grip and Tori with kuzushi does DeashiBarai to the front leg of the Uke, on the other side Tori and Uke step through the left leg ...
    5, Hizaguruma - both sides - Tori step into the opponent with the crossing slightly aside and pull backwards for performing Hizaguruma
    6, Ógoshi - both sides - good Kuzushi - then Ógoshi performance - Uke steps around Tori and rolls to the ground
    7, Taiotoshi - both sides - good Kuzushi - then Taiotoshi performance - Uke steps around Tori and rolls to the ground
    8 Ósotogari - both sides - Tori after the grip steps little bit to the to the side and with Kuzushi makes Ósotogari, Uke relieves leg and performs swing leg, Tori also performs swing leg, Uke performs swing leg, Tori performs swing leg and safely throwing / put Uke
    9, Zarei to partner
    10, Ritsurei direction to the Shomen
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    NBK

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by NBK on Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:10 pm

    I think folks are over thinking this.

    Seems to me to simply be a way to introduce ukemi and throws in a non-threatening manner.

    Doesn't mean anyone has to memorize it - just show the patterns and have the kids follow it.
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by Y-Chromosome Yesterday at 9:15 am

    NBK wrote:I think folks are over thinking this.

    Seems to me to simply be a way to introduce ukemi and throws in a non-threatening manner.

    Doesn't mean anyone has to memorize it - just show the patterns and have the kids follow it.

    If this is the case, why present it as a kata?
    Why not just present it as a syllabus or a program?

    Lots of us have been using modified waza for different age and experience groups for decades. This is nothing new. What we can't all see is the objective of putting those things together as a "kata" which introduces a whole lot of kata baggage that may subvert the intention of the program.

    I'm just asking the question for discussion's sake. I understand you're not responsible for this nor necessarily privy to all the background details.

    cokiee

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by cokiee Today at 4:36 am

    NBK wrote:
    classicschmosby wrote:
    NBK wrote:I think the former.
    'Grading' in Japan for juniors is very different from Europe or the US. It's very simple - when sensei thinks you're ready, you have a couple of competition points under your belt, and appropriate time, you start learning Nage no Kata with a similar sized / aged partner. Then perform it. That's about it.

    Is the technical examination portion of a grading in Japan primarily/ completely kata focused then? As opposed to the wider individual technique basis that seems to be more common worldwide.

    Yes.
    Here's the entire system in Japanese.
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/activity/grade/

    As I read it, requirements for shodan:
    ≥ 14 years of age
    ≥10 points in competition
    ≥1 year practice
    Hand, hip and leg technique portions of Nage no Kata performed well enough.

    The Japanese see dan grades very differently from the rest of the judo world. All the complicated series of technique demonstrations, written tests, years of slogging through clinics, etc. don't exist here.

    Yes and I think that's crucial. In other parts of the world with a western influence - not just in the west - it seems to me that the shodan is seen as the 'end game', like one has 'arrived', when I would think it means one is now an advanced student ready to explore.

    Y-Chromosome wrote:
    NBK wrote:I think folks are over thinking this.

    Seems to me to simply be a way to introduce ukemi and throws in a non-threatening manner.

    Doesn't mean anyone has to memorize it - just show the patterns and have the kids follow it.


    If this is the case, why present it as a kata?
    Why not just present it as a syllabus or a program?

    Lots of us have been using modified waza for different age and experience groups for decades.  This is nothing new.  What we can't all see is the objective of putting those things together as a "kata" which introduces a whole lot of kata baggage that may subvert the intention of the program.

    I'm just asking the question for discussion's sake.  I understand you're not responsible for this nor necessarily privy to all the background details.

    Just wondering - could it be that we're overthinking what a kata is, i.e., must be in a very stern, fixed form, etc. Whereas it's actually just .. 'a syllabus/programme'?
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    Y-Chromosome

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by Y-Chromosome Today at 8:25 am

    cokiee wrote:
    Just wondering - could it be that we're overthinking what a kata is, i.e., must be in a very stern, fixed form, etc. Whereas it's actually just .. 'a syllabus/programme'?

    You may be right.

    It's a matter of interpretation and possibly unintended consequences.  Kata is supposed to be a training tool, and a flexible one at that, but in practice it's gotten continually more rigid and all efforts seem to be exerted to ensure the highest degree of standardization possible.

    This may not be the intent of this "Children's Kata" but it could easily be the result the and the consequences could be counter-productive.

    To take one example, the O Goshi presented has uke step around and place their foot on the mat before taking their ukemi.
    I see this happen all the time as an unintended result of fearfulness on uke's part or lack of control on tori's part. Sometimes a combination of both.

    If we train too rigidly towards a "correct" presentation of this kata, we may end-up reinforcing habits that we would rather avoid.

    Likewise I've seen young students get really turned off on Kata because an overzealous instructor spends an hour nit-picking the fine points of the opening series of rei and they don't even get to the first waza until after they're truly bored and frustrated.  Again, not the intention, but can be the consequence.

    I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I'm drawing on what I've seen play out over many years of practicing and teaching judo.
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    NBK

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    Re: 'Kodokan children's kata' courtesy Mukai sensei

    Post by NBK Today at 10:55 am

    I think both Cokie and YC are on the right track.

    RE: shodan - certainly the great unwashed even in Japan think, 'ooooh a black belt' but inside judo it's simply seen as the sign to take off the training wheels and throw them harder, they should know how to fall by then.

    In fact, I had a friend, an accomplished athlete who rose quickly as an adult through 1, 2 dan, then refused to test for 3 dan at the Kodokan. When I asked why, he said, they'll simply expect more at that level - more work, more attendance, more competitions - and I don't have the time in my life for that commitment.

    As far as the kata goes, I started to write a long reply but Cokie has it about right. A kata is simply a 'form'. It can be a large number of techniques in a series, or a single technique practiced in uchikomi again and again.

    I think what is slightly unsettling to me about the video is the very precise movement seems like exactly what you would try not teach children, but if you look, it seems to address those issues that you need with chlldren - get over fear of big falls from seoinage by stepping forward into the fall, practice balance and control for osotogari by rocking 2-3 times then throwing, etc. Also bear in mind they're demonstrating to a senior bunch of foreign judoka so they want to seem polished, I'd think.

    Mukai sensei runs the children's program, and has a number of set pieces he uses to show basic techniques. There is a video of his taisabaki 'dance' that I can't find, but it is a marvelous drill, reminiscent of the more complex series taught in certain aikido schools like Tomiki ryu. He does it with a little song, a mnemonic for the kids that helps them remember the sequence. Great stuff, and the sort of innovation that seems to have bypassed the rest of the Kodokan.

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