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    DougNZ

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    Demo-jitsu

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:19 pm

    There have been a few clips of ju-jitsu posted recently. They show some fine practitioners performing exciting techniques.

    These prompted me to start a new thread.

    I think that the greatest hinderence to many ju-jitsu styles is their aversion to randori. I'm not talking about one person standing in the middle of a circle of attackers who attack one after the other. I'm talking about one-on-one, both wanting to win randori.

    Demonstrations and circle randori are fantasies. Look closely: uke leaves his punch dangling in the air; he snaps his head back in response to a punch; he is whipped off his feet by a clean ogoshi; and he can't wait to tap from that ude garami. In reality, uke's punching arm will be really tensed and he will be trying to take your head off. If he misses with the first shot, you can be sure he will immediately follow with something else. When you hit him, his head might move off its axis but you may also break your hand. Or miss! Or he beats you to the punch! When you go for a throw you can bet he's going to react. He might block with his hips, push your upper body away or try to counter. And when you go for that ude garami he will try to straighten his arm, hit you with his other hand or try to get you off his body.

    In my early days doing a 'traditional ju-jitsu style' I used to get upset when scrappers off the street could come in to our dojo and easily outclass me. What I hadn't worked out then, was these guys were fighters and I was a technician. They knew about fighting and instinctively understood distance, rhythm and force, and I ... didn't. They knew about fighting because they practiced fighting and I, meanwhile, practiced grabbling dangling punches, throwing punches at someone who snapped his head back, throwing an unresisting person and puting on complex locks. I was practicing being a technician but I was not practicing fighting.

    I think randori is the single most effective means of turning techniques into fighting tools. It does not have to be 100%, full-on. In fact, our brain cannot process things happening at that speed so we do not learn well. It is better working at, say, 60% much of the time so that the conscious brain can learn. Then it's good to go at 100% sometimes, too, so that the subconscious gets a chance to practice as well.

    Randori is how we test our techniques, tactics and resolve. A successful throw in randori is the reward for hours of technical throwing practice. However, an unsuccessful throw attempt is just as positive and should be the prompt for new technical practice and tactical consideration.

    Take another look at a spectacular ju-jitsu display and then find a good, fiesty lightweight MMA fight. Don't watch tori; watch uke. Look at what he is doing and not doing. Then you will understand that uke's compliance really isn't helping tori at all and, in fact, it is his resistence, agression and force that is really helping tori in the long run.

    Hanon

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:30 pm

    Hi DougNZ,

    How do you differentiate between randori and shiai?

    I agree with your paragraph regarding street fighters V dojo fighters. I have just written the same in the thread regarding SD.cheers

    Best wishes,

    Mike


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    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    DougNZ

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by DougNZ on Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:58 pm

    Hanon wrote:How do you differentiate between randori and shiai?
    Mike

    In our ju-jitsu school, randori means free-practice: strikes, kicks, clinches, throws, takedowns, pins, locks, strangles. It means hitting (in a controlled manner) to throat and groin. It means hitting in the clinch and on the ground. It is the time to practice fighting with the objective to control the opponent. It is where we think about key principles such as controlling balance, isolating limbs and areas, and developing 'flow'.

    Shiai is randori with a whole lot of rules stopping us from doing loads of cool stuff! Oh, and the outcome is often dependent on judges; in randori we both know who won!
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    JudoTerrier

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by JudoTerrier on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:56 am

    One of the things I really like about our jujitsu class is that there isn't a lot of emphasis on technique per se, but rather on having the correct posture and patterns of movement and techniques happen out of that. Nothing is going to be clean and pretty in a real fight. We also put a lot of emphasis on flow--never stop moving and if one thing doesn't work just try something else. We do a fair amount of live sparring and also practicing techniques against a resisting opponent. It's taught me that when you're fighting a joint lock and tori finally gets it it comes on FAST! I've certainly collected my share of bruises and jammed fingers. I think I could get myself out of a bar brawl with no major damage (not that I'll ever be in one! lol....). If someone were trying to get me in a car (which is the only circumstance I can think of where I'd be putting up major physical resistance) I think I could make it not worth their while--especially if they didn't have much training, Hope I never find out and just continue getting a good workout and learning lots of cool nasty things to do to people! Very Happy

    Erika
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    cuivien

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by cuivien on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:18 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    Hanon wrote:How do you differentiate between randori and shiai?
    Mike
    in randori we both know who won!

    if it's randori done properly you both win Very Happy

    DougNZ

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by DougNZ on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:01 am

    cuivien wrote:if it's randori done properly you both win Very Happy

    How is randori "done properly"?

    aspenrebel

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by aspenrebel on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:17 am

    I must take serious exception to your Post.
    You state that JJ practioners don't do "randori". I can only conclude that by "randori" you mean the same as "Judo randori". Now since any JJ style is different from Judo (one must remember that Judo was derived from JJ styles, and that Kano took out all of the inherent "dangerous" techniques so that his Judo could be a "competitive sport" as opposed to a "real life" JJ style which was part of the Samurai combat fighting arts. i.e. to kill, cripple, and maim an opponent. This is not the objective of Judo nor Judo randori. However, JJ styles are for "Real life", perhaps even life and death, self defense, and preservation of ones own life, not for "competitive sport" as is Judo. Therefore your argument is illusory and without merit. I'm searching for an analogy, but not coming up with one.
    So, the reason that JJ style do not partake in Judo like "randori" is because the risk of serious injury is too great. That is solely reserved for when someone actually attacks them in "real life". Further, in JJ Styles there are no "Rules". Judo is packed full of "Rules" because it is a "competitive sport" intended to be competed in shiai/tournaments with referees. It is also a martial art for self defense. If a Judo expert were to engage in a "Real life" fight with an attacker who has no fighting training, then the way it would go and the results would be far different than if he were to engage another Judo expert in randori or shiai.
    Similarly, JJ Style are for defending oneself against attackers in "real life" who most likely are not trained fighters. So, similarly, the results would be far different than if the JJ practitioner were to engage in some form of "randori" with a fellow skilled JJ practitioner. If 2 JJ practitioners were to go "all out" in some form of "randori", then the chances are that one or both would sustain serious or even permanent injury. That is the reason for all the "Rules" in Judo, now isn't it? Yes it is!!! JJ styles have no such established "rules" for any such "randori". Because they don't do it, and that's why they don't do it. "rules" inhibit ones ability to defend oneself in a "Real life" situation. Similar to how Boxers are handicapped when attacked in a "real life" situation. Against more than one attacker, a Boxer is in big trouble. If he is tackled to the ground, he is in trouble. If he is up against a kicker, he is in trouble. Why? because he has spent his whole life training in boxing, with gloves on, with "rules". Therefore, when in a "real life" situation he relies upon his training, therefore he relies upon the "rules" of Boxing, which are numerous. I have seen a Professional Boxer taken out with one shot by a spin around back fist!!! Why? Cuz he has never seen it before!! It's against Boxing "rules".
    For you to state, and desire JJ practioners to engage in some form of "randori" in order to prove to YOU their mettle might be analogous to you require Samurai Swordsman to engage in "randori" using real razor sharp swords!!! The results would be serous injury, amputation, or death!!! To what end? What purpose would that serve? Similarly, what purpose would it serve for YOU or anyone for JJ practioners to engage in "randori" and then have broken wrists, elbows, fingers, knees, etc? To give you a "kick"? What good would it be for anyone if Judo practioners engaged in "randori" with NO RULES!!! Just do what you want? How many destroyed knees would there be? How many crippled Judokas would there be? The premise of your Post is ridiculous, illogical, ignorant, and absurd.
    Inside of criticizing about something that you know nothing about, why don't you go and study some JJ style.? Then after awhile, ask your instructor to engage in "randori" with you. Then see how intelligent, knowledgeable, tough, and immortal you are.........after your wrist is broken, your fingers are broken, your knee is broken, your nose is broken, your jaw is broken, and your eating your meals out of a straw.
    Why is it that you people are never critical of Boxing? Why are you never demanding that Boxers fight eachother without gloves on, without hands taped, without those huge groin and kidney protectors, without referees, without rules? Just go at in Bare knuckled.!!! No ring, no rounds!! Why not? What would the result be? Broken hands, broken jaws, death? That is why Boxing has "rules". That is why Judo has "rules". JJ Styles have no "Rules" because it is not a "competitive sport". Why can't you people get this simple concept? The only "rule" JJ style have, in the dojo, is don't injury someone. In the "real world" there are no "rules". Only those of Society to which we all are accustomed.
    You talk about something that you know nothing about. You have no idea how truly "nasty" and violent many JJ styles, techniques, and practioners can be. When they decide to be serious, they can be very serious. They have no interest in competition, showing off, points, tournaments, rules, trophies, medals, or being judge. There only interest is in staying alive, and controlling and diffusing the situation as best they can. As is said, the best defense against a knife attack is to run away!! There is no "Randori" there, now is there?
    So your argument is completely without merit and is totally incompetent.
    In JJ, there is a very "fine line" between executing a technique in a safe and controlled manner, versus inflicting serious injury. Often the difference is a fraction of an inch, a fraction of a second, or just a little too much exuberance, pressure, or power. I remember onetime when I was starting in JJ, I was uke for a guy being tested for a belt. He was doing a technique, got too exuberant, and tore up my elbow. Unintentionally. You have that happen one or more times, and you may be crippled for life. People have to work, or to school, walk, write, raise a family. So they can't risk being crippled for life. This is why in JJ Styles you don't see them engaging in any full power "randori". Why don't you learn, studied, observe, and gain insight and understanding, instead of making ignorant Postings.?
    By your use of terms such as "compliance" and "resistance" and "resisting opponent", I can only conclude that you are a BJJ/MMA/Judo practitioner. i.e. again with "rules". You stated that you had studied some JJ style, but failed to say what or where. Am I to conclude that you are in England? Since that seems to be where most of you are, that make these sort of Posts. As for a "non-compliant" or "resistenting" opponent, as you put it, that is actually quite irrelevant. He can resist all he wants. All that means is that he is going to get hurt or seriously injured. You stated that you had "street fighters" come into your JJ dojo off the street. Did you not "resist" them? What was the result to you? Did they not hurt you, cause you pain? Were you not then "compliant"? A "resisting" opponent is quite easily made "compliant" by simple causing him shock or pain, in any number of ways to any number of points on his body. A two finger poke to the eyes, a Leopard's Paw to the front of the throat, a shuto strike to the ceratoid process, a ridgehand to the base of the skull, a instep kick to the groin, a shot to the solar plexus, control of the tricep tendon, an upper palm strike to the chin, grabbing the back of his hair (if he has any of course, if not then grab his ear) and twisting his head (risk of breaking his neck, paralysis or death here), etc, etc, etc, etc. There are hundreds of ways, and hundreds of points on the human body to which you can cause intense pain with a single strike or application of pressure. By which your magnificent "resisting opponent" will no longer be "resisting" as he is stunned. He will be "compliant" as you put it. Then you apply a JJ technique, and lock him out and put him down. Which does not necessarily involve a "throw".
    So let me put it in terms you can understand. You and I are going at eachother in full out "randori", with or without gi. I'm trying to do a technique on you, grab you, tackle you, or throw you, but since you are so masterful, you are "resisting" me. So then I say to myself "hummm? how can I get him not to "Resistent"?" So then I blast you with a front instep kick to the groin, so hard it lifts you up off your feet. Which would be easy to do, since I'm sure you lack any ability to defend against a kick (as I have witnessed from just about ALL BJJ/MMA people). Then you are in shock, in pain, sickened. Then I easily grab you, throw you, lock you out on the ground, break your wrist, your ribs, your jaw, drive the full wgt of my body behind my knee into the side of your neck and your ceratoid process until you pass out. OH!!! But wait!! My kicking you in the groin is against YOUR "RULES"!!!! Isn't it? JJ practitioners have no "rules", I have no "rules". Didn't those "street fighters" you claim came into your JJ dojo, have no "rules" either? Isn't that the real reason you had difficulty? Not that your JJ class did not engage in "randori"?
    You must remember, most people have LIVES!! Jobs, school, work, homes, cars, families, children to raise, other things to do than Martial arts. They are not Full time, professional, hard core, pumped up, do or die fighters. They cannot risk serious injury. Perhaps you can. If they sustain a serious injury, they could possible be fired from their job. Then their family is homeless. But of course if you are in England, that socialist nanny state, then the gov't will take care of you, won't it? But most people in the "real world" have to fend for themselves.


    Last edited by aspenrebel on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:42 am; edited 1 time in total

    Hanon

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:32 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    cuivien wrote:if it's randori done properly you both win Very Happy

    How is randori "done properly"?

    With the appropriate mind set. Randori is practice there are no ippons, no winners nor losers its a time to practice free from the stresses encountered in shiai.

    Shiai is as much a test of ones attitude as it is ones technique. Let me pass you an example. At club visits and local championships I did just great. Place me in an arena with 2,000 spectators and they win. I could never face shiai in front of such a crowd. Nothing to do with my judo technique but everything to do with my mind set.

    Mike


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    aspenrebel

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by aspenrebel on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:44 am

    Hanon wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:
    cuivien wrote:if it's randori done properly you both win Very Happy

    How is randori "done properly"?

    With the appropriate mind set. Randori is practice there are no ippons, no winners nor losers its a time to practice free from the stresses encountered in shiai.

    Shiai is as much a test of ones attitude as it is ones technique. Let me pass you an example. At club visits and local championships I did just great. Place me in an arena with 2,000 spectators and they win. I could never face shiai in front of such a crowd. Nothing to do with my judo technique but everything to do with my mind set.

    Mike

    Stage fright, eh? Me too!! To a degree, certainly. That is a goodly part of the reason why I don't like competition or tournaments. I do not care to nor do I need to display myself to a group of people.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:16 am

    aspenrebel/todd, do you realize that in your post you highlighted precisely what the OP was talking about? you did this by quoting literally every jujitsu stereotype there is.

    I don't know if you actually do judo or not, but for the sake of a good analogy I'm gonna assume that you do, and will understand the connection I am making.

    do you remember first learning ogoshi? or tai otoshi? or harai goshi? after a bunch of practice on a non resisting opponent, you eventually got the basics down. at some point you could probably throw a beautiful tai otoshi on an uke who is a willing participant. but then what happened the first time you did it in randori? I bet it didn't go well did it? your partner having plans other than making your attempts look good changed the situation didn't it? imagine if you went out and tried it in shiai without working out the kinks in randori. you'd probably get creamed. why is that any different from your wrist lock ki throw? is it because you think your jujitsu throw is so deadly that it can't possibly fail? in order to understand and get truly proficient with a technique, you must practice it on someone who doesn't want you to apply that technique. and I don't mean "ok class we're working on defense to hook punches today" and then later in the class they try to actually punch you, but with a type of punch you knew was coming (but hey, maybe you didn't know if it was a left or right side punch so it's all good, right?).

    I have a somewhat flashy technique that I like to practice from time to time: harai tsurikomi ashi. every time I do it in nage komi practice it's beautiful. it's absolutely gorgeous, and gets a lot of attention when I do it at demos. but it took me a lot of failure with it in randori before I was ever able to successfully land it against a resisting opponent. in fact I still don't land it that often. and no amount of doing it beautifully against someone who willingly let me throw them was gonna make me good enough with my HTKA to be able to use it against a resisting opponent. imagine if I thought that technique was too deadly to practice 'live' and only did no resistance nage komi with it, and then one day I tried to use it in a real fight...

    I've seen judo yellow belts wipe the floor with jujitsu black belts who were bigger than them, and prior to that day those JJ black belts thought they were very good at throwing people. I mean why wouldn't they have thought that? after all their application of their chosen throws always went perfectly when they practiced it in their dojo... on non resisting opponents.

    if your martial art only works properly when the attacker is an untrained idiot with no balance, then your martial art isn't very good now is it? and furthermore what separates you from the 'no-touch-ki-knockout' guys? after all they call their art a style of jujitsu too...


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    hedgehogey

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:27 am

    Todd doesn't do judo or BJJ and that's precisely his problem. He comes on here once a month to chime into an unrelated thread with something like I HEARD THAT'S KOSHI GURUMA and then leave without following up.

    One day I hope Todd will walk into a real judo or BJJ school and get in on the open mat. He'll have a badass Brazilian rasping the skin off his face with his gi, a silly fat man sitting on his head, someone much smaller than him tying his limbs into knots and strangling him and a person hitting him with an entire planet. His muscles will burn no matter how much he resolved to not muscle. He'll be short of breath while his more experienced partners haven't broken a sweat. And he'll realize it's all, exquisitely real.
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    Ricebale

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Ricebale on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:06 am

    For you to state, and desire JJ practioners to engage in some form of "randori" in order to prove to YOU their mettle might be analogous to you require Samurai Swordsman to engage in "randori" using real razor sharp swords!!! The results would be serous injury, amputation, or death!!! To what end?

    Fromwhat I've seen the wanna be samurai dudes suck at sword fighting also for similar reasons

    Hanon

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:13 am

    Is this turning into a dick measuring contest as in this cold weather I would even lose that! Embarassed

    Mike affraid


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    tafftaz

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:45 am

    aspenrebel wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:
    cuivien wrote:if it's randori done properly you both win Very Happy

    How is randori "done properly"?

    With the appropriate mind set. Randori is practice there are no ippons, no winners nor losers its a time to practice free from the stresses encountered in shiai.

    Shiai is as much a test of ones attitude as it is ones technique. Let me pass you an example. At club visits and local championships I did just great. Place me in an arena with 2,000 spectators and they win. I could never face shiai in front of such a crowd. Nothing to do with my judo technique but everything to do with my mind set.

    Mike

    Stage fright, eh? Me too!! To a degree, certainly. That is a goodly part of the reason why I don't like competition or tournaments. I do not care to nor do I need to display myself to a group of people.


    I have never,ever felt the need to display myself for any group of people. What I have done is compete at the highest level I was able,against better judoka than me mostly, solely to test myself. To see just how good or bad my judo was/is and too see how good my judo could be improved. I won some and lost some. So shiai indicated areas of my judo that still need improving.
    Stage fright? No,just nerves. Not so bad in Masters now though. One of my colleagues who was part of the UK olympic squad years ago used to be physically sick before competing. He would be throwing up minutes before being called matside.
    Nearly every judoka I know enters shiai to test themselves, not to show-off to any amount of spectators.

    ....and it is cold here as well Mike Very Happy
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    JudoTerrier

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by JudoTerrier on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:09 pm

    hmm.....we spar in my jujitsu class. You don't *finish* techniques because it's not nice to break your toys, but I've ended up more than once on the mat with a shin on my neck and my wrist in a nasty gooseneck, tapping frantically. Or hit the mat from a throw that happened so fast I was on the floor before I realized Sensei had hold of me. Done something similar too. And when you've been really resisting something and the other guy finally gets it, it comes on really fast and hard. You better both have good control or somebody's gonna get hurt. And when you start playing like that you find out that all those pretty, complicated techniques are DAMN hard to get on a moving, resisting, sweating opponent. (I've slithered out of more than one choke because I was drenched with sweat--and you better not count on getting a good grip on a sweaty wrist.) We actually don't really practice techniques per se--we practice principles and patterns of movement. You'll end up with SOME technique--but you probably won't have planned it in advance. And after four years of jujitsu and lots of sparring I'm starting to sometimes be able to get something on one of the other guys. If you don't practice live, it won't work live. Period.

    Erika



    hedgehogey

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by hedgehogey on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:47 pm

    Watch Todd not reply to any of this because saying something stupid and running away is his modus operandi
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    cuivien

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by cuivien on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:31 pm

    JudoTerrier wrote:hmm.....we spar in my jujitsu class. You don't *finish* techniques because it's not nice to break your toys, but I've ended up more than once on the mat with a shin on my neck and my wrist in a nasty gooseneck, tapping frantically. Or hit the mat from a throw that happened so fast I was on the floor before I realized Sensei had hold of me. Done something similar too. And when you've been really resisting something and the other guy finally gets it, it comes on really fast and hard. You better both have good control or somebody's gonna get hurt. And when you start playing like that you find out that all those pretty, complicated techniques are DAMN hard to get on a moving, resisting, sweating opponent. (I've slithered out of more than one choke because I was drenched with sweat--and you better not count on getting a good grip on a sweaty wrist.) We actually don't really practice techniques per se--we practice principles and patterns of movement. You'll end up with SOME technique--but you probably won't have planned it in advance. And after four years of jujitsu and lots of sparring I'm starting to sometimes be able to get something on one of the other guys. If you don't practice live, it won't work live. Period.

    Erika

    Good post Erika Smile

    The sentence in boldface is my emphasis, and the reason why I don't have much good things to say about the jû-jutsu people who have the dôjô before us on Fridays. I've taken a peek at their class from time to time, and while something like "grabbing the wrist of an attacking punch, breaking the elbow, kicking the guy in the stomach, then breaking the shoulder, then performing a 180 turn and aikido-throwing (i.e. magically throwing) the opponent across 2-3 tatami" might look good, I've yet to see it performed at speed with a resisting uke Wink


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    Hanon

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:48 pm

    Hi Erika,

    May I pass some thoughts on this sentence of yours..." If you don't practice live, it won't work live. Period."

    I think I understand what you are trying to convey. The reality of self defence is complex in its teaching, learning and especially its training.

    Your statement cannot be taken literally. We cannot kill, maim, dislocate, break, blind or rupture parts of our partners body in order to train for real life situations. There simply HAS to be a trade off, a compromise, between a balanced training manner verses safety.

    In training troops for self defence its a very difficult task to find the balance between safe practice and what is expected to survive in an LZ.

    I had to smile to myself when I read a comment posted in this thread where a poster stated they attacked the groin and throat but "Lightly". I am not going to write about certain aspects of self defence on a public forum where children may read this then experiment. Needless to write I have no idea what a 'light' contact would mean in terms of a kick to the groin or attack to the throat? Shocked Evil or Very Mad

    I respectfully suggest you never, under any circumstances, build a belief system that what you learn and practice in a dojo is similar in the street or any other form of physical confrontation. Seasoned professional troops and security guards will vomit and soil themselves given certain circumstances Embarassed . Are you suggesting you train under that level of stress and fear? 99% of self defence is attitude, NVC, and controlling emotions.

    Misplaced confidence can get you killed just as quickly as not having any! The skill in training SD is to find a balance whereby the pupils are placed into as many different situations as possible especially where real fear and panic are induced and encountered, this is not easy, not at all.

    There is no script in an attack. There are no players. Its fast and bewildering and so often happens, for civilians, when we least expect it.

    Mike


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    JudoTerrier

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by JudoTerrier on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:06 am

    Hanon wrote:Hi Erika,

    May I pass some thoughts on this sentence of yours..." If you don't practice live, it won't work live. Period."

    I think I understand what you are trying to convey. The reality of self defence is complex in its teaching, learning and especially its training.

    Your statement cannot be taken literally. We cannot kill, maim, dislocate, break, blind or rupture parts of our partners body in order to train for real life situations. There simply HAS to be a trade off, a compromise, between a balanced training manner verses safety.
    Mike

    Of course not. That's what I meant by not breaking your toys. By "live" I mean against a non-compliant partner in an unscripted sparring match.


    I hope to goodness I never find out what a real fight is like. If I was mugged on the street I'd happily hand over my wallet and offer the car keys too. If they tried to force me INTO the car, I'd fight with everything I've got whether they had a gun or not. I know what happens to women in those scenarios--I'd rather end up dead on the sidewalk. It would be quicker and cleaner. I THINK I could make it not worth their while and get out of it alive. Better yet, I don't go places where that is likely to happen and I try to stay aware of what's around me when I'm out and about. I totally agree that the best weapon for self defense is your brain, closely followed by your running feet.

    Erika




    Hanon

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:26 am

    JudoTerrier wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Hi Erika,

    May I pass some thoughts on this sentence of yours..." If you don't practice live, it won't work live. Period."

    I think I understand what you are trying to convey. The reality of self defence is complex in its teaching, learning and especially its training.

    Your statement cannot be taken literally. We cannot kill, maim, dislocate, break, blind or rupture parts of our partners body in order to train for real life situations. There simply HAS to be a trade off, a compromise, between a balanced training manner verses safety.
    Mike

    Of course not. That's what I meant by not breaking your toys. By "live" I mean against a non-compliant partner in an unscripted sparring match.


    I hope to goodness I never find out what a real fight is like. If I was mugged on the street I'd happily hand over my wallet and offer the car keys too. If they tried to force me INTO the car, I'd fight with everything I've got whether they had a gun or not. I know what happens to women in those scenarios--I'd rather end up dead on the sidewalk. It would be quicker and cleaner. I THINK I could make it not worth their while and get out of it alive. Better yet, I don't go places where that is likely to happen and I try to stay aware of what's around me when I'm out and about. I totally agree that the best weapon for self defense is your brain, closely followed by your running feet.

    Erika




    Hi Erika,

    Thanks for the reply. We are on the same page. Smile

    An awful lot of first time pupils to a SD class are horrified to learn that the use of their intelligence is one of their most effective weapons Wink ! Due to cinema so many people believe that after a ten week course they can fend for them selves. Rolling Eyes
    I have never taught SD to the public as a physical activity and don't think it truly realistic.

    Like you if they want my wallet or car keys they are welcome. The blade of a fools knife is sharper than his wit.

    Pleased you are looking after yourself.

    Kindest regards,

    Mike


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    DougNZ

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by DougNZ on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:39 am

    After reading all the posts - even the manic ones - I still stand by my original post.

    I might qualify that randori is many things in our dojo whilst still being free practice. Mostly we work at around 60% intensity and there is usually a theme - either suggested by the teacher or initiated by each student. Sometimes we are looking to tie up uke's arms; sometimes it's about controlling uke's balance or maintaining our own; sometimes it's about trying recently-drilled techniques; sometimes it's even grappling with eyes closed!

    That said, we still go hammer-and-tongs every now and again. And, yes, we have some rules; we don't try to maim or kill our dojo mates, so strikes, locks and throws are not delivered full force. But on a day-to-day basis the groin and throat, for example, are fair game.

    And that leads to another point: I don't buy the argument by ju-jitsuka that they cannot enter tournaments because ju-jitsu is too lethal and anything controlled by rules is not ju-jitsu. Bollocks! Dojo etiquette is rules. Tapping is rules. Pulling punches is rules. Pulling up on throws is rules. Not sinking fingers knuckle-deep into eyes is rules. Every night in the dojo we work to rules and that is really no different to abiding by tournament rules. On the flip side, entering into a tournament allows ju-jitsuka to experience nerves, adrenaline, differing fighting styles ... and wonderful camaraderie.

    But I digress ...
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by genetic judoka on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:41 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    And that leads to another point: I don't buy the argument by ju-jitsuka that they cannot enter tournaments because ju-jitsu is too lethal and anything controlled by rules is not ju-jitsu. Bollocks! Dojo etiquette is rules. Tapping is rules. Pulling punches is rules. Pulling up on throws is rules. Not sinking fingers knuckle-deep into eyes is rules. Every night in the dojo we work to rules and that is really no different to abiding by tournament rules. On the flip side, entering into a tournament allows ju-jitsuka to experience nerves, adrenaline, differing fighting styles ... and wonderful camaraderie.

    But I digress ...
    careful, we don't wanna interfere with people's ability to sit around and talk about how deadly they are unchallenged.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:49 am

    DougNZ wrote:



    That said, we still go hammer-and-tongs every now and again. And, yes, we have some rules; we don't try to maim or kill our dojo mates, so strikes, locks and throws are not delivered full force. But on a day-to-day basis the groin and throat, for example, are fair game.

    ...

    Hi DougNZ,

    I am trying to understand your points here. Having a problem with the following..

    "We don't try to maim or kill our dojo mates".." But on a day-to-day basis the groin and throat, for example, are fair game".

    I think that is a contradiction in terms... Shocked

    I have no idea how sensitive your groin and throat are but mine don't take at all kindly to any form of attack even gentle randori type attacks? affraid Add to that you mention you randori sometimes blind and I become totally baffled?

    There are area's of the body and you mention two, that are kyoshu. One is extremely painful the other is lethal .

    Can you give examples of how you practice?

    Thanks for any clarification you can make.

    Regards,

    Mike


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    hedgehogey

    Posts : 103
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    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by hedgehogey on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:50 am

    If the throat were a "lethal" area to attack we'd never be able to do shime waza.

    Hanon

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    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Demo-jitsu

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:01 am

    hedgehogey wrote:If the throat were a "lethal" area to attack we'd never be able to do shime waza.

    That is your opinion and it is to be respected.

    Mike


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    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

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