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    "Hands Up!" in Japanese

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    Jacob3

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    Re: "Hands Up!" in Japanese

    Post by Jacob3 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:19 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote: That being said, no one implied that 8 people were lying for the simple reason that I do not find it credible that all those 8 people who happened to attend last year were actually teaching goshinjutsu and formed some kind of panel in which each of them were asked what precisely was being said, the more since this issue seems to have popped up only now. Some of them are experienced in goshinjutsu, some of them are not at all.

    While I take your point, I still fail to understand how someone who does not speak a word of Japanese, or 8 people of whom to the best of my knowledge no one speaks Japanese, would conclude what needs to be said when, for example, take NBK, who is fluent in Japanese, who has translated the official Kôdôkan Goshinjutsu brochure, and who so far is the only one who in recent years as a foreigner was asked to translated during the actual Kôdôkan Kata Summer Course specifically for Goshinjutsu, and who also is the only one of all the people who translated whose translations were in correct English, lucid and to the point. In essence this is the same issue that we have been having in Europe since the 1970s. Someone comes back from the course in Japan, says that we have been doing it all wrong and they now changed it all, usually people who do not speak a word of Japanese.

    It would be very strange  --yes, perhaps not impossible--  that in all of the previous courses that come to memory something else was said, but most importantly no matter what one might claim it still needs to be a Japanese, and as someone qualified in Japanese linguistics I am dying to know which Japanese words were used. It is a bit the same as me telling you that we had a Dutch teacher here yesterday who told us that when the Dutch meet each other they say "Frmpffflt aksssprt" which is a common expression used in colloquial Amsterdam speak. By the way, none of use speak nor understand a word of Dutch but we are all sure, all 8 of us (who also speak nor understand Dutch) that this is what he said.

    Well, before this already blows up, before I even had the chance to consult Mas Blonk about it, let me explain how things went.
    There were two people teaching Kodokan goshinjutsu in Amsterdam, and about 30-40 people attending their class. Eventually we got to the gun-part and the teachers told us that 'hata kero' was the phrase to say. Someone then asked wether or not it should be 'te agero'. They explained that there are several ways to express the same intent, but since they were taught at the Kodokan that 'hata kero' was used, they would stick with that. This was confirmed by several other attendants who went with them to the Kodokan. So no, there was no such thing as an official panel nor were all separately questioned about it. It was as spontanious as the 'pop up' of this very topic. I dont visit here regularly anymore and only saw this topic just this morning, and it is just quite a coincidence that Mas Blonk was mentioned in here, with the same text as was discussed at the course.

    And dont get me wrong. I am not at all claiming that since several people said the same thing, it is automatically true. In fact, I realise how things can go. Sort of mass-psychology. One mishears something that all others did not even notice at all. They talk about it amongst themselves and next thing they are all convinced they heard the same. And I can also imagine that it was just as little an issue over there as it was here in Amsterdam, so perhaps no one even bothered to dig it out much further.

    It does not even matter very much to me what phrase needs to be said, since I do not intent to hold-up any Japanese in the near future. It just made me curious wether or not we have another 'Dutch Invention' on our hands here. I will ask Mas about it. And I just also remembered that mr. Yano will visit Holland again in March. I will ask him aswel, since he speaks some English.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: "Hands Up!" in Japanese

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:56 am

    Jacob3 wrote:
    Well, before this already blows up, before I even had the chance to consult Mas Blonk about it, let me explain how things went.
    There were two people teaching Kodokan goshinjutsu in Amsterdam, and about 30-40 people attending their class. Eventually we got to the gun-part and the teachers told us that 'hata kero' was the phrase to say. Someone then asked wether or not it should be 'te agero'. They explained that there are several ways to express the same intent, but since they were taught at the Kodokan that 'hata kero' was used, they would stick with that. This was confirmed by several other attendants who went with them to the Kodokan. So no, there was no such thing as an official panel nor were all separately questioned about it. It was as spontanious as the 'pop up' of this very topic. I dont visit here regularly anymore and only saw this topic just this morning, and it is just quite a coincidence that Mas Blonk was mentioned in here, with the same text as was discussed at the course.

    And dont get me wrong. I am not at all claiming that since several people said the same thing, it is automatically true. In fact, I realise how things can go. Sort of mass-psychology. One mishears something that all others did not even notice at all. They talk about it amongst themselves and next thing they are all convinced they heard the same. And I can also imagine that it was just as little an issue over there as it was here in Amsterdam, so perhaps no one even bothered to dig it out much further.

    It does not even matter very much to me what phrase needs to be said, since I do not intent to hold-up any Japanese in the near future. It just made me curious wether or not we have another 'Dutch Invention' on our hands here. I will ask Mas about it. And I just also remembered that mr. Yano will visit Holland again in March. I will ask him aswel, since he speaks some English.

    Luckily for all of us the whole ordeal was taped which allows us rather than to speculate and argue to sit back relax and let the images and comments speak for themselves:


    Let's start with the 2012 kata clinic:





    This is the 2012 International Kôdôkan Summer Kata clinic, Kôdôkan Goshinjutsu in July 26, 2012:

    One can hear the command given by Fujita Shinro's uke, who are the teachers. The command is given four times and

    is clearly "te o ageru", cfr. specifically at the following time intervals:

    1h 10' 57"
    1h 14' 11"
    1h 15' 22"
    1h 16' 07"


    The pistol attacks then occur in one demonstration by Japanese natives, in which clearly the command "te ageru"
    can be heard at the following intervals:

    1h 36' 27"
    1h 36' 40"
    1h 36' 52"



    Now let's look at the 2013 International Kôdôkan Summer Kata clinic, Kôdôkan Goshinjutsu in July 24, 2013:





    During this recording, the teacher, which is mostly Fujita Shinro, is talking most of the time, in consequence of which uke carries out his attacks but without usually giving the command.

    However, it is said at 1h 42' 11" that the command given is "te o ageru".

    The command itself can then be heard at 1h 46' 24".

    At one point during conversation the sentence "aite ni ageru" is heard. This is, however, not a command. The verb ageru does not only mean to put something up, it is also the polite form to give something to someone else in a superior position.  The word 'aite' means adversary or partner, and the word 'ni' indicates the indirect object. In other words, what is indicated is that ... uke "gives back the pistol to tori". But yes, if one does not know a iota of Japanese, then ... how on earth would one know.

    Furthermore the command "te o ageru" can clearly be heard at:

    1h 48' 37"

    and again at:

    1h 49' 32"


    However, there seems to be some synchronization problem as the sound seems to come not from both teachers but from somewhere behind the camera indicating that perhaps the group was split in two (beginners vs. more advanced) with another group practising on the other tatami. This is merely my speculation, and I can't say for sure, but given the exact moment during the technique as we see in the video, and the difference in sound and volume, suggests that these commands are shouted from elsewhere closer to the camera microphone. Nevertheless, th presence of these commands can refer to only one thing as there are not other attacks except for the three pistol attacks in Kôdôkan goshinjutsu which are accompanied by such commands.

    Fujita Shinro-sensei talks a couple of times about the command, or better the situation in English, as "don't move". Obviously the expression "hands up" also implies that one should not be moving, even though specifically it indicates that one is expected to remain motionless with the hands not down but in the air. Strictly speaking the expression "te o ageru" does not indicate that one should not be moving, but only an idiot would derive that "hands up" would mean that you only have to stick up your hands but that for the rest you can freely move around and do as you please ...


    As to asking mr. Yano or whoever who might visit Holland again in March, don't ask to tell you or we will have the exact same problem; instead hand him/her/them a sheet of paper and a pen and ask to write it down ... in Japanese characters, so that it eliminates the potentially problematic in-between transfer factor of information that may be at the core of what it is we are debating here, and the possibility of inaccurate Rômaji.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:16 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : correction of typo)


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    Lurker

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    Re: "Hands Up!" in Japanese

    Post by Lurker on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:09 am

    The problem in sound for the 2013 clip is that the picture and sound are out of synch – some of M. Bigot’s excellent videos this year unfortunately fell to this. I was there this summer - the group was not divided into two, everyone was gathered around this tatami. To my recollection, te ageru and te o ageru were used.
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    Jacob3

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    Re: "Hands Up!" in Japanese

    Post by Jacob3 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:17 am

    I met Mas Blonk this saturday, and asked him what the correct phrase would be, according to him. He confirmed that the correct phrase was 'te (w)o ageru'.

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    BillC

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    Re: "Hands Up!" in Japanese

    Post by BillC on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:30 am

    Maruyama-sensei still suggests if one wants to get it right it should be "te wo agete itadakemasen deshouka."  Because after all, this is kata, we have to be as stiff, formal and blank-faced as possible showing the highest level of solemnity for our "judo show."  We are not training to defend against some common attacks, we are trying to appear to be the most Japanesey pair in the "tournament."  So get it right else you will be "marked down" which is way, way worse than taking a bottle to the head in a bar someplace.

    Goshinjutsu no kata indeed.




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