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    Hanon

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    Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:34 am

    Hello.

    This point or question is often raised in a variety of threads. I thought we could debate the subject?

    Randori or free exercise should be practiced with the mind set of training all aspects of judo from ones weakest points to ones tokui waza. The vital philosophy of randori is there is no scoring so no one wins or losses, its pure practice and a time where new waza can be tried without the ego being harmed by loss. This is the theory, in practice I think we all understand the use of randori today is a full all and out fight as seen in shiai but without a referee.

    Shiai. Shiai cannot be stressed enough as a key and vital element of judo. It can also not be stressed enough that shiai is not the whole subject of judo but one of its tiniest parts. Shaia is where we take our practice and put that theory to the test. Not only is ones technique tested in shiai its the place where the greatest character changing opportunities are offered by the practice of kodokan judo. Ultimately in facing a partner in shiai we are facing up to our own fears, insecurities and self doubts. Its a time to test our character and providing we enter shiai with the correct mindset shiai is the fire where we forge the character that makes a judoka what he can be.

    I write on the theory, the philosophy and this is by far from the reality of what actually is practiced or taken from each practice. The over use of the ego is a harmful barrier to randori. Sure we need to have an ego it is how to use, control and live with a healthy ego that is the point. Randori should have no place for false wins and losses as that is not what randori is.

    The gokyo should be learned, uchikomi to practice the physical form, then nage komi to discover debana and correct application. Randori is the workshop where we try to develop all these other skills under practice. kata is a tool to learn and develop the core principles of judo be they tai sabaki, shisei, debana to kake etc. All of these subjects make one judo and all of thee subjects run in parallel. Over or under practice of any component part leads to a misbalance in ones judo and therefore tends to develop only certain parts of the character.

    In randori there should never be the feeling of one has won or lost, its not the point of the practice. We need to place the ego under control and practice randori as a method of testing and improving out techniques free from the pressures that come from a shiai.

    Shiai is a very demanding period. Judo can be dangerous, we can be badly hurt or badly hurt a partner, shiai is an awful lot of responsibility. WE are trying to fight in a pseudo killing fashion, the ippon in terms of nage waza, to completely render our partner unable to continue should that ippon have been used on an aggressor. Shiai in its purist form is the building block for our own character and its not the partner we are trying to control and beat its ourselves and in life it is always the self that is ones biggest challenge!

    Mike


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    resnick66

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by resnick66 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:56 pm

    Nice post... But man, is that philosophic.

    Randori, for me, has very different meanings for each person in the room. Clearly it would be wrong to impose your views on anybody else in terms of what randori or competitive shiai should mean to them. There is nothing wrong with people in a competitive and serious judo environment doing randori at an extreme level. In fact, for those between the early teen and thirty or so years that is exactly what randori often is. I also very much believe it was that same thing for Kano and his students.

    For those in a different environment or different time in their life, randori may mean something very different and I welcome people of any and all views into my dojo. However, as a competitive person myself, though I have not entered a competition in more than 8 years, I find randori that forces me to problem solve while feeling the grind and pressure on my physical body to be exhilarating and well worth the price of what many others might consider to be "unjudo-like."

    Shiai is meant to see whose mental and physical prowess is best on that given day. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, there are lessons to be learned, manners to be minded, etc, etc... But that does not detract from the general purpose of what a shiai is. It is a place for all comers to discover who has what and when.
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    Judo Dad

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Judo Dad on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:24 pm

    Thanks Mike for an interesting post. When my boys entered their first competition they would perform a throw then stop and help the other person up. This got a bit of a laugh. Now they are more experienced and would transition straight into ne-wazza. Usually randori at the club is either tache-wazza randori or ne-wazza randori and the sensei encourages people to try out things they have recently been taught and not to worry too much about coming undone. But I have noticed that when a tournament is coming up, the randori is more like a tournament i.e., we start standing but if there is a throw we continue into ne-waza. So the way randori is practised varies quite a bit to suit the Sensei's training plan. Just sharing my observations and not saying any way is better or worse than any other.


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    still learning

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by still learning on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:47 pm

    Hanon wrote:Hello.

    In randori there should never be the feeling of one has won or lost, its not the point of the practice. We need to place the ego under control and practice randori as a method of testing and improving out techniques free from the pressures that come from a shiai.

    Mike

    There should however be a feeling of success or accomplishment. Both as a student and as an instructor.

    A few months ago I was teaching tomoenage, probably one of my worst throws but it needed teaching as hardly anybody had confidence with it. When we moved to randori I insisted that everybody must attack with tomoenage before attempting any other throw. When one of guys pulled off a wonderful tomenage I actually cheered, it was not only great for him but felt a resounding vindication of my method of teaching.

    Hanon

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:33 am

    resnick66 wrote:Nice post... But man, is that philosophic.

    Randori, for me, has very different meanings for each person in the room. Clearly it would be wrong to impose your views on anybody else in terms of what randori or competitive shiai should mean to them. There is nothing wrong with people in a competitive and serious judo environment doing randori at an extreme level. In fact, for those between the early teen and thirty or so years that is exactly what randori often is. I also very much believe it was that same thing for Kano and his students.

    For those in a different environment or different time in their life, randori may mean something very different and I welcome people of any and all views into my dojo. However, as a competitive person myself, though I have not entered a competition in more than 8 years, I find randori that forces me to problem solve while feeling the grind and pressure on my physical body to be exhilarating and well worth the price of what many others might consider to be "unjudo-like."

    Shiai is meant to see whose mental and physical prowess is best on that given day. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, there are lessons to be learned, manners to be minded, etc, etc... But that does not detract from the general purpose of what a shiai is. It is a place for all comers to discover who has what and when.

    Hiya,

    Thanks for joining in the debate. I am unsure I can agree with what you write. May I explain as best I can. I don't think I have ever encountered a subject like judo where we all have our own opinions on what judo is and how it should be practiced. Lets take football. Football has clear rules in terms of the aim of the game and how it can be played, its controlled and every single person playing football has to abide by a set of rules, there is no buffet football, a football match is not a democracy, the referee is in charge and if a member decided to pick up the ball ad run with it... As you know that happened, the new game when then called rugby and a new great so[port grew from football.

    In terms of judo there IS randori and randori does have a set way it can be practiced. Numerous variations but all with one theme that theme being as you write a philosophy. The philosophy being randori is a time of free practice, free in terms of freedom from stress and pressure to win as there is zero winning. If we desire to fight to test ourselves that system then becomes shiai.

    We cannot make of judo what any of us like. Judo cannot be a buffet, a tatami cannot be a place where we all do what we like to do and practice what we the do the way we want to.

    My grandson goes swimming, he abides by the rules and does what he is told. I sit there bored to death watching and waiting for him to finish. I pass my responsibility for his safety and welfare to his teacher and his teacher will control the group not each pupil make what they will from the session.

    We can debate randori and claim its a car mechanics course or learning how to pilot a helicopter.

    I agree entirely that the vast majority of judo dojo now practice randori as shiai, I accept this without question. This does not excuse the point it is not the correct use of the exercise.

    In reality the only difference today between randori and shiai is one has a referee and the other doesn't. To this end the raison d'etre has been lost. Same with atemi waza same with ne waza and the same with the ippon. Judo is now generally practiced and taught as a narrow sport and that is one of the reason Joe Public don't take to at as they once did. In many areas Greco roman wresting is far more advanced and entertaining to watch that judo.

    To practicing randori as shiai is as useless as learning kata to pass the next rank. Learning kata AFTER one has retired from shiai is also ass backward.

    I agree in reality with what you write but that does not excuse the point it is not the best way for us to practice and learn judo.

    Change should ALWAYS be made with greater knowledge. If one poster reading this raises the point at his or her dojo and the pupils make change the results in growth to their judo will soon be felt and seen by all who practice.

    At least after writing this post readers can make an educated informed choice as to how they practice and teach and take responsibility for the results.

    Mike:)


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:04 am

    In the videoclip below of Okano Isao (or alternatively, the one with Doug Rogers in the Kimura documentary of which I could not find the last part (3) online), intense randori is shown that includes hard throwing. At no point though would any accomplished jûdôka watching these clips see shiai. It is randori:



    You can best see the difference between randori and shiai when in Japan and you see a Westerner step on the tatami.. You can see this even at the Kôdôkan. It's like their focus becomes "making sure not to be thrown", "throwing that damn Japanese on his back", and be able to tell or show all your friends that you as a "Westerner" were able to throw a Japanese ...

    This is a strange. I am sure that now and then you can provoke Japanese into getting into this kind of thing too, but it is not their normal doing. They do randori, irrespective of whether what I am saying sounds like a wide generalization or not. The focus really is on 'practice' on 'improving your technique', not on winning unless maybe as a Westerner you approach the Japanese and start your game of patty-cake, blocking everything off, and time after time without technique dragging your opponent onto the ground, preferably with some very untechnical knee-wrenching movements.

    Hanon-sensei in his original post contrasts randori vs. shiai, but we could as well have contrasted uchi-komi vs. uchi-komi. Westerners almost never do uchi-komi. They do 'something', some kind of aerobic cardio-exercise trying to impress one another or at least themselves how fast they can go, or altnernativel while completely bored make some basic steps hoping it all is soon over. This is not uchi-komi. Uchi-komi's major focus, just like the focus or randori, is to improve your technique. Uchi-komi requires coming in proper technique repeatedly, and that should be focus. If you can do a high number of repetitions and do those repetitions of accurate technique at high speed, very nice, hat off, but having the ability to do high repetitions at supersonic speed where one wonders "what the heck is that what you're doing", na-aah, 駄目 (dame).

    How does this problem with randori/shiai occur ? There seem to be some unspoken signals and conventions. Usually for a randori to evolve into shiai, requires two people. So even if one starts doing shiai, it isn't fully shiai unless the second one starts doing shiai too. In other words, the provocation becomes only 'succcessful' if one gives in to that provocation. In reality, it isn't always innocent. For some, the fact that you visit their dôjô potentially threaten the territory of the local champ, the fact that you are too friendly to a girl one of the local blokes does not appreciate, the way you do your hair, your skin color, the brand of your gi, that Whitney Houston sticker on your gear bag, the fact that during the initial line-up you go spontaneously sit to someone's right whereas no one in the club would ever dare to sit to that person's right, anything can be enough to make someone try and change randori into competition. Jûdôka are often not easy people with lots of pet-peeves bordering the sociopathic, so you do not need to do anything special apart from being at the wrong place at the wrong time to have any peaceful mere practice approach turned into some vicious testosterone-drenched competition that will not be regarded officially over until at least one person's head has been integrally separated from his body, possibly the only exception being if you're willing to start crying, sink to your knees while holding up both arms, bending forward and humbly state "My God I am now at your mercy, please spare my life".

    Nothing like that in Japan. Never a single time have I experienced anyone turning a randori into competition when you start doing randori against that person. Now, Korea is a whole other pair of gloves, and Hanon's initial title is not sufficient to cover the Korean situation. To do so, the title would need to be updated to: Randori & shiai & murder under the veil of jûdô as condoned by the dôjô's sensei.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total


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    JudoSensei

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by JudoSensei on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:12 am

    I agree that randori in Korea is very different than randori in Japan. Randori in the US is different than randori in GB as well. It is different between dojo and individuals. It is different for the same individual at different times depending on training goals.

    For me, there is nothing wrong with using randori for very tough practice motivated by wanting to successfully perform your technique (some people might call this winning). This is not the same as shiai, although there are many different approaches and levels in shiai too (Olympics, local developmental tournament, etc.). It is not really possible to turn randori into shiai since one score does not end the randori and there are no referees or medals. If you are practicing randori as training for shiai, approaching randori with the same degree of concentration and focus is essential. You should try your best to do better than your evenly matched training partner, even if you might call that trying to win. This effort is how you progress.

    Randori should perfect your skills and physical conditioning while forging character through hard training in attack and defense. When you are practicing randori with someone better than you it is the time to try with all your might to overcome the challenge. Naturally, when practicing randori with someone less skilled an adjustment must be made to try to perfect your weaker techniques or provide opportunities for your partner to execute some techniques. Randori should also be practicing in a variety of other ways, with little resistance for example, or focusing on certain throws or one aspect like newaza. Randori is much more flexible than shiai and it can be used to develop a wide variety of skills. There is no right or wrong way to randori, in my opinion.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:36 am

    Forgive me if I repeat a post made before on two other sites.

    I took my judo club to the UK some years ago and was invited to head the judo instruction. I was practicing and teaching blah blah. Come time for 'randori' We made randori when 'change' came I saw a senior citizen wearing a black obi and faced her to randori. Poor lady went white and declined. I insisted and took hold of her asking if she was okay in health. I then proceeded to allow this dear little elderly lady to throw me all over the tatami as best she could. To me this was absolutely acceptable and in no way would I have thrown her. I didn't ask the ladies age but would guess maybe 70?

    While said dear lady was cleaning the tatami with me I overheard two large mat side dan grades make very derogatory comments about my judo saying what the hell was I doing wearing the obi I was wearing and the standard in the country I came from must have been crap. Neither new I spoke English.They both came onto the tatami and when change came guess what? There was one of these 'judoka' facing me with the clear idea of giving me a blooming good hiding. BIG mistake. I did not resort to shiai, he tried I did ensure, however, he learned a lesson in manners. After a short time and several hard throw later my partner asked to sit this one out. I changed looking for his mate. HELL FIRE his mate was not only not on the tatami but clothed and looking on as if to say stuff that mate! I have NEVER known a chap change so quickly, well I have but that's yet another tale.

    Point of the tale is obvious, this pair of silly people saw me being thrown around by this dear lady and thought they would make themselves look good by bouncing a person wearing my obi! It never entered their minds that this was randori and as such no one has a point to make. I earned a great deal of respect from that lady who became a friend of mine for the duration of the course. Wonderful person and deserved my deepest respect.

    I had in my dojo many types of randori. I would allow the highest the rank partner to only defend or not use the left arm or the right arm. Only practice from the guard or only attack. The variables are enormous and very good training.

    Shiai is another subject with a completely different mind set and goal all together. randori and shiai as as different as chalk and cheese. Proof of this is I have arm locked and strangled some VERY famous Japanese judoka in randori. If that had been shiai I would have been inspecting the dojo lights after about 10 seconds!

    Mike


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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    tafftaz

    Posts : 330
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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:49 am

    I find that the most difficult part of coaching is trying to drum into people (mostly higher grades,dan ranks included) that randori and shiai are different animals.

    Really frustrating at times.

    Hanon

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:03 am

    tafftaz wrote:I find that the most difficult part of coaching is trying to drum into people (mostly higher grades,dan ranks included) that randori and shiai are different animals.

    Really frustrating at times.

    I agree,

    Very nice to see you here my friend. How is Welsh Wales?

    Very best wishes,

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    GregW

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by GregW on Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:39 am

    Hanon wrote:Forgive me if I repeat a post made before on two other sites.

    I took my judo club to the UK some years ago and was invited to head the judo instruction. I was practicing and teaching blah blah. Come time for 'randori' We made randori when 'change' came I saw a senior citizen wearing a black obi and faced her to randori. Poor lady went white and declined. I insisted and took hold of her asking if she was okay in health. I then proceeded to allow this dear little elderly lady to throw me all over the tatami as best she could. To me this was absolutely acceptable and in no way would I have thrown her. I didn't ask the ladies age but would guess maybe 70?

    While said dear lady was cleaning the tatami with me I overheard two large mat side dan grades make very derogatory comments about my judo saying what the hell was I doing wearing the obi I was wearing and the standard in the country I came from must have been crap. Neither new I spoke English.They both came onto the tatami and when change came guess what? There was one of these 'judoka' facing me with the clear idea of giving me a blooming good hiding. BIG mistake. I did not resort to shiai, he tried I did ensure, however, he learned a lesson in manners. After a short time and several hard throw later my partner asked to sit this one out. I changed looking for his mate. HELL FIRE his mate was not only not on the tatami but clothed and looking on as if to say stuff that mate! I have NEVER known a chap change so quickly, well I have but that's yet another tale.

    Point of the tale is obvious, this pair of silly people saw me being thrown around by this dear lady and thought they would make themselves look good by bouncing a person wearing my obi! It never entered their minds that this was randori and as such no one has a point to make. I earned a great deal of respect from that lady who became a friend of mine for the duration of the course. Wonderful person and deserved my deepest respect.

    I had in my dojo many types of randori. I would allow the highest the rank partner to only defend or not use the left arm or the right arm. Only practice from the guard or only attack. The variables are enormous and very good training.

    Shiai is another subject with a completely different mind set and goal all together. randori and shiai as as different as chalk and cheese. Proof of this is I have arm locked and strangled some VERY famous Japanese judoka in randori. If that had been shiai I would have been inspecting the dojo lights after about 10 seconds!

    Mike

    I really resonate with agreement to Hanon's initial comments and this one, too. I am nowhere near his level of expertise and my knowledge of judo as a recent shodan is growing. The club where I practiced up until this past summer was a really good one. Everyone was very friendly and concerned with one another's mutual welfare and benefit. I have to credit my sensei for fostering this environment. In randori, if someone pulled off a solid, "ippon-quality" throw, the very next words out of tori's mouth would be, "Are you OK?" We all sought to improve our judo, but we looked out for each other. Accidents and injuries happened from time to time, but we did our best to keep each other healthy.

    I moved this summer and I've been a visitor at three other clubs. I know what it's like to feel like I was wearing a "bulls-eye" on my back. In one of those clubs, during randori, I was paired up with a guy half my age (I'm 53) who was a wrestler in college who had just come over to practice judo. He was wearing a white obi and I approached him with some degree of protectiveness. In the first seconds, he did some kind of wrestling pass-by and went around be to bear hug me from the back. I could have broken the hold or rolled and taken him over me, but I didn't know if he could take the fall correctly or not, being unfamiliar with his skills. The guy was super strong and he suplexed back with my arms restrained and threw me over onto the back of my neck. He then grabbed a hadaka jime with such force that I thought he was going to take my head off entirely. I tapped out and he swaggered back up to his feet. I could see it in his eyes. "I just schooled a black belt!"

    This time, as we got our grips, I just said to him, "Let's try some judo this time." With a minimal amount of force, I put him on his back twice with de ashi barai. I don't know if he learned anything from the encounter, because I saw him do the same thing to two more people that night and the head sensei didn't correct him. My neck hurt for two weeks afterwards.

    At 53, I hope to stay healthy so I can practice judo for a long time to come. I don't want to injure anyone and I hope others will offer the same consideration. I would rather "lose" to someone rather than cause serious harm. Unfortunately, there is a violent streak in the culture in America that isn't being moderated by some of our judo coaches. Some individuals are modeling their practice of judo on MMA/UFC culture, not judo culture. In the name of competitiveness, some of them are allowing this kind of behavior to go unchecked.

    I went to another club shortly afterward for about a month. This one trains elite athletes and the killer instinct was being bred into to the competitors. The coach was excellent, but I just didn't connect with the culture he was building there. The level of competitiveness made the place an injury factory. In one night of practice, my son and I both ended up with broken toes (not altogether uncommon), and there was a guy who suffered a shoulder separation and another guy wrenched his knee and tore an ACL. Despite my respect for the sensei in that club, it's not the place I want to train. It's definitely not the atmosphere in which my son should learn judo.

    I love Hanon's ideal of balancing all facets of judo and using judo to train the inner self as well as the physical self. I think that's the difference between a coach and a sensei. The coach trains competitors, a sensei trains judoka. I think there is a distinction to be made.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by tafftaz on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:57 am

    Hanon wrote:
    tafftaz wrote:I find that the most difficult part of coaching is trying to drum into people (mostly higher grades,dan ranks included) that randori and shiai are different animals.

    Really frustrating at times.

    I agree,

    Very nice to see you here my friend. How is Welsh Wales?

    Very best wishes,

    Mike



    Hi Mike

    Welsh Wales is very wet at the moment, as it is most times:D

    Glad to hear you are keeping well.
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    JudoTerrier

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by JudoTerrier on Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:24 am

    I can so relate to this. Unfortunately our club is one of the ones where randori tends to look more like shiai. It's frustrating the crap out of me right now because I'm at a point where I really need RANDORI. I'm seriously considering snagging one of our older dan ranks and asking if he'll go off in a corner with me and play light for a while. (And we have a couple of guys who would be glad to do it.) I really need the mat time moving and trying stuff and being told what I'm doing wrong and when I did something right, so I can start to get a better feel. I can look at the vid from my last tournament a couple of weeks ago and see several instances where I could have thrown, but didn't because I couldn't feel that it was there. Only one way to get that. Eh, I've got class tonight. Maybe that will be my project for the evening.....

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Guest on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:19 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Hanon-sensei in his original post contrasts randori vs. shiai, but we could as well have contrasted uchi-komi vs. uchi-komi. Westerners almost never do uchi-komi. They do 'something', some kind of aerobic cardio-exercise trying to impress one another or at least themselves how fast they can go, or altnernativel while completely bored make some basic steps hoping it all is soon over. This is not uchi-komi. Uchi-komi's major focus, just like the focus or randori, is to improve your technique. Uchi-komi requires coming in proper technique repeatedly, and that should be focus. If you can do a high number of repetitions and do those repetitions of accurate technique at high speed, very nice, hat off, but having the ability to do high repetitions at supersonic speed where one wonders "what the heck is that what you're doing", na-aah, 駄目 (dame).

    I appreciate what you're saying here. When I practice uchi-komi I am not very fast. When I see most people do uchi-komi fast their technique is awful. I don't see the value of instructors having their students go faster and faster with uchi-komi if they are not doing real entries that would result in a real throw if followed through to completion.

    As for randori I have a group of training partners where we work hard but it's not shiai. Judo has become a lot more fun for me. Over the years I've learned a lot of gripping strategies from someone who trained with Jimmy Pedro for quite some time but nowadays I don't care for grip fighting in randori. It's a waste of time for me but I don't think it's a waste of time for those who are actively competing. I would have to believe for serious competitors, and by serious I mean teens and young adults who travel for points, randori has to be like shiai. Their mindset has to be "on" for competing and winning. Those special group of people have to perfect their winning techniques and to me that is understandable. In all recreational activities you will always have that group of people where they have to train differently because they are competitors and there should always be room for that. I think the problem Judo faces in a lot of clubs is the opposite where there is seemingly no room for the person who just wants to improve their Judo without the focus of winning medals for the club.
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    Neil G

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Neil G on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:05 am

    Our club almost has the opposite problem - sensei is adamant that randori be all about learning, never 100% effort more like 50-60%. This is fine as it is a recreational club but for the few people that like to compete it would be good to take it up a notch or three from time to time.

    Hanon

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:05 am

    Neil G wrote:Our club almost has the opposite problem - sensei is adamant that randori be all about learning, never 100% effort more like 50-60%. This is fine as it is a recreational club but for the few people that like to compete it would be good to take it up a notch or three from time to time.

    This again is a sign of a dojo with an imbalance. All randori with zero shiai is also as poor as zero randori with all shiai.

    last year on my travels I encountered a judo club that only practiced kata, I jest not? Its absurd.

    Suggest to your sensei that toward the end of each lesson he or she arranges some shiai. One to one on the tatami while the rest of the club watch. then change and so on. This is very important.

    Mike


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    Angelven

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Angelven on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:14 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Suggest to your sensei that toward the end of each lesson he or she arranges some shiai. One to one on the tatami while the rest of the club watch. then change and so on. This is very important.

    Mike

    Our club is pure recreational - no competition. It's allowed of course, but you are on your own basically if you want to compete (Sensei has contacts in another club which is competing, so in actuallity, you would get some help)

    But, we do the shiai in the end of the lessons semi-regurlarly. King of the hill style, winner stays on the tatami. Everyone against everyone, no age/size restrictions - of course the adults go easy on the kids but as an adult you get all the challenger can give (Oh - in newaza, it's not that easy actually getting a 9-year old boy on his back and pinned, like small fish to catch, they are :-D ). King of the hill ensures that everyone gets a chance - after going 4-5 matches you are out of steam and get thrown :-D

    Hanon, thanks for a nice article and some really useful comments and insights. I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:41 am

    Angelven wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Suggest to your sensei that toward the end of each lesson he or she arranges some shiai. One to one on the tatami while the rest of the club watch. then change and so on. This is very important.

    Mike

    Our club is pure recreational - no competition. It's allowed of course, but you are on your own basically if you want to compete (Sensei has contacts in another club which is competing, so in actuallity, you would get some help)

    But, we do the shiai in the end of the lessons semi-regurlarly. King of the hill style, winner stays on the tatami. Everyone against everyone, no age/size restrictions - of course the adults go easy on the kids but as an adult you get all the challenger can give (Oh - in newaza, it's not that easy actually getting a 9-year old boy on his back and pinned, like small fish to catch, they are :-D ). King of the hill ensures that everyone gets a chance - after going 4-5 matches you are out of steam and get thrown :-D

    Hanon, thanks for a nice article and some really useful comments and insights. I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D

    Hiya,
    last paragraph first. "I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D" Don't do this. Take advantage of him breaking his own balance. It is not wise to try to break a partners balance it is wiser to take advantage of his own imbalance, EG, every time we walk its a process of losing ones balance and gaining it again. Try to slowly uchikomi de ashi braai then when you have got the idea of the kuzuhi and tsukuri start to add speed, then do this in nage komi, slow then add speed.
    Recreational judo can have bloomin hard serious shiai. Please understand that shiai is not championships. Shiai can and should be part of the curriculum in your own dojo, we then have inter club visits, sure its friendly but its shiai. You don't need to enter into every championship going, one or two a year is fine. Take all parts of judo and practice all of them, this is the only way to learn then master the complete judo. Not to mention its the way of training toward self mastery and that one is the hardest of all.
    In a shiai your heart beat should become rapid your legs feel like jelly and all your fears should be looking you in the face. This is where you forge your spirit. Doesn't have to be hours and hours per week but you do need some shiai, you do need to be taxed emotionally and physically, to taste that adrenaline and dry moth, to face up to your doubts and regardless of how sick you feel stand there and still fight.
    Let us know how you get on,
    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
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    Angelven

    Posts : 5
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    Location : Stockholm, Sweden

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Angelven on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:29 am

    Hanon wrote:

    Hiya,
    last paragraph first. "I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D" Don't do this. Take advantage of him breaking his own balance. It is not wise to try to break a partners balance it is wiser to take advantage of his own imbalance, EG, every time we walk its a process of losing ones balance and gaining it again. Try to slowly uchikomi de ashi braai then when you have got the idea of the kuzuhi and tsukuri start to add speed, then do this in nage komi, slow then add speed.
    Recreational judo can have bloomin hard serious shiai. Please understand that shiai is not championships. Shiai can and should be part of the curriculum in your own dojo, we then have inter club visits, sure its friendly but its shiai. You don't need to enter into every championship going, one or two a year is fine. Take all parts of judo and practice all of them, this is the only way to learn then master the complete judo. Not to mention its the way of training toward self mastery and that one is the hardest of all.
    In a shiai your heart beat should become rapid your legs feel like jelly and all your fears should be looking you in the face. This is where you forge your spirit. Doesn't have to be hours and hours per week but you do need some shiai, you do need to be taxed emotionally and physically, to taste that adrenaline and dry moth, to face up to your doubts and regardless of how sick you feel stand there and still fight.
    Let us know how you get on,
    Mike

    What can I say ? Thanks for your insight again! You are right, recreational shiai can be a bit challenging since we are friends and no one wants to "loose" ;-)

    And you are of course right - I think I read it in some other thread somewhere - I need to get him to move and then ... (Oh - and not let him "catch" me, he's bloody strong and using it ;-) )

    Raj Venugopal

    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2013-01-21

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:45 am

    In Fredericton Judo Club randori is done in many ways. Progression from technique to gripping to tachiwaza randori where sometimes it is winner stays out, other times it's round robin. Everyone fights everyone, and there is self regulation where some fights are near shiai level and others are give and take based on ability, injuries, age, weight.... Time ranges from 1 minute to 4-5 minutes, or sudden death. Lots of variety. In our two hour class randori can be as long as an hour and 15 minutes, but usually around 45 minutes. It is very exhausting, and Sensei will determine how the tachiwaza randori will take place based on who is there. When the serious competitors are there the randori is more intense. Newaza rules are always in effect, so there is strong orientation to continuation on the ground. Sometimes I throw up from the exertion. In newaza randori we go "sharkbait" where we move from fight to fight, other times it is by the clock. The play is continuous and very hard physically, but the fit players are in incredible condition. Randori is a hard and stressful part of our club, but we do produce a lot of very tough judoka- tough in body and in their head.

    Raj Venugopal

    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2013-01-21

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Raj Venugopal on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:49 am

    PS- members are encouraged to compete year-round, so there is a strong correlation between class randori and shiai experience.

    GregW

    Posts : 103
    Join date : 2013-01-22
    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by GregW on Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:26 pm

    Angelven wrote:Everyone against everyone, no age/size restrictions - of course the adults go easy on the kids but as an adult you get all the challenger can give (Oh - in newaza, it's not that easy actually getting a 9-year old boy on his back and pinned, like small fish to catch, they are :-D ). King of the hill ensures that everyone gets a chance - after going 4-5 matches you are out of steam and get thrown :-D

    Hanon, thanks for a nice article and some really useful comments and insights. I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D

    I smiled when I read your comment that getting a 9-year old boy pinned is hard to do. My oldest son decided to start judo a few months ago. He's a new white belt--28 years old. He got paired up with 12-year old kid doing ground randori in his home club in Maryland, the kind where everyone starts on their knees. He got the kid off-balance and tried to go in for a kesa gatame and the kid kneed him in the side and he broke a few ribs. He has been off the mat healing for the past six weeks or so, but he's looking forward to going back. You gotta watch out for those kids. They're dangerous--all pointy knees and elbows!

    neilm1990

    Posts : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-17

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by neilm1990 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:20 am

    Wow brilliant debate. The club I train at we do several "randori" I use the quotation marks because I'm not sure if it is the strict sense of the word. We will start off with throw for throw randori were everyone gets thrown there is no defensive play. We progress to light randori were we attempt to throw a person and if the throw is there Uke goes with the throw. Finally we have full randori. We have the problem when people come to the club they understand throw for throw but light randori for a lot of them seems to be an excuse to put people through the mat.
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    DCS

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    Location : Spain

    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by DCS on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:55 am

    For me it is the players intent/mindset, not the intensity, what separates one from the other.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Randori & shiai

    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:13 am

    DCS wrote:For me it is the players intent/mindset, not the intensity, what separates one from the other.

    That's certainly part of it.

    Mike


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