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    Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

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    Ogre

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Ogre on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:55 pm

    Hello Genetic Judoka,

    thanks for your reply, but it doens't refer to my post, does it? Since you didn’t answer my questions, did you?

    genetic judoka wrote:some competitors are assholes. I refuse to compete in a situation where my ability to make it up and down the stairs in my house is reliant on my opponent having my best interests in mind as he cranks away at a leg lock. many competitors care about their opponent, but not all do. leg locks were allowed in judo shiai for a long time, and due to the high number of injuries it was banned, and rightfully so.

    But you don't refuse to use armlocks?

    And as I mentioned several times....you take the risk to arm your opponents neck because you can handle it (while throwing).
    In my point (and I did't read a better argument until here) the danger can't be your most valid argument.
    and once more:
    You risk your opponents health. Isn't something like.....for instance a Kata-Guruma dangerous like hell?
    In the other hand….BJJ guys don't harm eath other...nor the guys from Sambo....nor the MMA guys...nor the guys from luta livre?
    `
    You people in here argue that judo is an educational-system. Even me - who knows nothing about education or some science like this - knows , that it's more effective reward someone for a good action than to punish him for a "bad" action.
    And the IJF keep on punishing...restricting...


    yes, other arts practice atemi, but judo is primarily about throws and holds. there are arts that practice throws and holds in addition to strikes, and in many cases their throws are terrible as is their groudwork. we in judo focus on throws and holds, and as a result can develop them to a high degree. jack of all trades and a master of none, is not the way I wanna be. I have no interest whatsoever in practicing striking, why should I do striking because YOU who are not my sensei think I'm not practicing it enough? what if I really don't care about striking? because really, I don't care about striking.

    throwing people is tons of fun, and that's why I do it.

    Thats the big difference between someones opinion and (historical) facts.
    Wo says that “but judo is primarily about throws and holds”?

    I think you should do stirking because it’s a part of judo?
    You refuse to practice a big part of judo but you still claim to do judo?
    I can’t say "I study math but I refuse to learn algebra"…because it’s no fun? If my “sensei” doesn’t practice algebra with me, will there be no algebra because of it?!
    Still it’s a big part of math…

    My kindest regards,

    ogre


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    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:28 pm

    Ogre wrote:
    finarashi wrote:

    You seem to advocate that
    a) either nobody never ever practices some dangerous techniques
    b) everybody everywhere always practices dangerous techniques

    In Judo there is balance;
    a) In shiai dangerous techniques are eleiminated as our desire to win (and our clumsiness) easily overcomes our consideration of our opponent. I hae unintentionally hurt people during shiai.
    b) Dangerous techniques are not to be practiced untill we learn to control our body and to some degree our mind i.e. there is Judo pre back belt and after black belt
    c) to those young of age we restrict pracicing of dangerous techniques
    d) in Judo we first start practicing dangerous techniques using kata so the uke and the tori get to know the techniques before one tries it really

    But again the purpose in Judo to practice dangerous techniques is not to harm others and not to overpower others so exploring this dark side is up to individual Judoka.

    Judo is good, Judoka are human!

    Hello finarashi,

    I think you do missunderstand me.
    I'm saying that EVERY judo-technique IS dangerous. Man, it's based on koryu....
    I just don't see the difference of "harmfullness" between an armlock, a choke, a strike, a kick or a throw...?
    Since a throw is the most dynamical one (since you stand stop it when uke falls...) it's IN MY OPINION the most dangerous one.

    Sometimes I practise Muay Thai and MMA to complete my judo (since judoka are usually unwilling to practise atemi...). In those classes we punch our faces and kick in our livers like f******* hell, but everybody is aware of eath other.
    There is noone being brutally hurt (and I do it for a couple of years now).

    Why are the judoka so afraid of practicing atemi? Or joint-locks to minor joints?

    It's not that we can't prevent ourselves from injuries. We can. We proof in every day throwing-practising.

    I'd accept that you start using atemi (or any other mentioned "dangerous" technique) in your later education. But do you really do?
    Do you use atemi waza? Do you practise leg locks? (even though they are a part of judo kata)

    And if you don't...why?
    I mean... I don't care about other peoples judo training. You gotta do whatever you want and whatever you mean to be effective.
    You cut your own system for NO reason.

    No, it's (in my opinion) not dangerous! Seriously...(and thats what I wanted to stress with my example on seoi-nage), you do a shitfull of dangerous stuff, but avoid things for no reason.
    Yes, we are human...that's why we are intelligent enough not to harm our partners, neither with throwing nor with striking.

    YOu can have a complete system, either for your way of education (of body and mind) and my system of self-defense (to return back to the topic), but you refuse this one big part intentionally, even though it would be so easy to integrate it in your practise).

    But I think I won't understand.

    My kindest regards,

    your ogre

    HEy why don't we just do judo wearing American Football gear, playing with a ball and instead of throwing for Ippon we could count the goals scored, it would make judo much more spectator friendly wouldn't it Very Happy

    OH yeah but it wouldn't be judo anymore would it scratch

    Can we now finish this BS Rubish it is getting worse than the bjj infilltration into every judo thread on the old JF.

    Thats the big difference between someones opinion and (historical) facts.
    Wo says that “but judo is primarily about throws and holds”?


    What hysterical historical facts?

    In the other thread Cuivien und JonZ stated facts that are checkable based on scientific historical research, what you are claiming as facts are just mythycal faireytales.


    atb

    sodo



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    Ogre

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Ogre on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:42 pm

    Hello sodo,

    your statement makes me sad.
    I thought you were rather interested in interchange of ideas, not in dogmatism. But thanks for your reply, It makes me see this forum from the angle I should see it, and not from the angle I want to see it.

    You are right. Judo is a nice education tool, especially for kids.

    If you want to practise your judo spectator-friendly, feel free to this hoever you want.
    In my opinions this is not going accordingly Kanos ideas (and statements).

    Furthermore I am impressed that you imply that iam lying with my facts?! Did you ever even read "Mind over muscle" for instance? I can quote the entire book to underline my statements and questions.
    I assume that you are simply not able not answer my questions. No problem, but then stop offending people for stating bullshit.

    Since all Í say is "just mythycal faireytales"?
    Did you look though Kodokan curriculum? Kata? Maybe? Nage-no-Kata? Tell me about the initial attack of uke in Uki-Goshi? Or seoi-nage?
    It's fairy tales? Weapon handling? If it's not an important part for you, why do you practise it?
    And why do you even "argue" in this topic if there is no progressive content in your posts? No asnwers. No questions.



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    Fritz

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:37 pm

    sodo wrote:HEy why don't we just do judo wearing American Football gear,
    playing with a ball and instead of throwing for Ippon we could count the
    goals scored, it would make judo much more spectator friendly wouldn't
    it Very Happy

    OH yeah but it wouldn't be judo anymore would it scratch
    Oh, nice, there is something i could agree with you.

    But why the hell we call this strange Olympic sport, with its colored fighting suits, with it constantly rule changing for sake of
    more public attraction, with a winning by something called "ippon" obviously lacking the original 3 criteria of an "Ippon",
    with penalties forcing despairing attacks regardless of the right situation trying to owerpower the opponent,
    with inactivity penalties for one who is struggling to keep at his
    foots being attacked by the opponent, with incomprehensible / causeless stops of Newaza, with prohibited judo techniques from
    Nage-no-kata or Gokyo like Kata-guruma, Sukui-nage ... - why we still call this "judo"?
    (The BJJ people there are a little bit more honest, they call their judo descendant "BJJ", well knowing that the origin was Kodokan Judo teached by Maeda ;-) )
    sodo wrote:In the other thread Cuivien und JonZ stated facts that are checkable
    based on scientific historical research, what you are claiming as
    facts are just mythycal faireytales.
    Sorry but it seems to me you're reading a different forum, I did not read some facts here
    which contradicts the Kano quotes provided by "tom herold" ... :-(

    Btw.: I looked carefully at the instances of the written judo shiai rules listed at the old forum.
    There is no explicit prohibition of atemi-waza, there are some restrictions regarding kicks, some "hint" not to try to injure the opponent
    (regardless of technique), but not prohibition - other stuff is explicitly forbidden...
    Indeed in the old forum i found a video of "Koji Komuro" where he kicks his opponent at his thigh with the intention
    to create space for applying a arm lock or so...

    @Mike Hanon: I think your "pseudo killing" argument indeed goes in the direction to my opinion that shiai is a safe "simulation of a real fight".
    Then you wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Both make us fight on as we should do in life. The world is a dojo to a
    budoka not just some practice room for two hours per week. Perhaps this
    is where my sensei where so absolutely different to their pupils.

    Did i understand right:
    To learn to struggle with the daily life we have to play "killing" - but if the situation occurs reality, when real fighting or combat is necessary, then for that
    is Judo not for? Its very confusing.... ;-)


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    Hanon

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:01 am

    Fritz wrote:
    sodo wrote:


    @Mike Hanon: I think your "pseudo killing" argument indeed goes in the direction to my opinion that shiai is a safe "simulation of a real fight".
    Then you wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Both make us fight on as we should do in life. The world is a dojo to a
    budoka not just some practice room for two hours per week. Perhaps this
    is where my sensei where so absolutely different to their pupils.

    Did i understand right:
    To learn to struggle with the daily life we have to play "killing" - but if the situation occurs reality, when real fighting or combat is necessary, then for that
    is Judo not for? Its very confusing.... ;-)

    The lessons learned from Shiai and general judo practice are taken from the dojo into our daily lives because we DO NOT learn to kill we learn to care

    No partner equals no judo, no judo equals no vehicle for us to train to improve our lives, both physically and mentally.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:13 am

    In terms of all things life let us assume there is a continuum from 1 to 10, both extremes. I read how some posters get hurt, on times deliberately hurt. Lets take intent from 1 being peace to 10 being war. Two complete opposites. We WILL encounter both extremes on a tatami. Some judoka will fight with care and fight from a knowledge and character base of care and education with compassion and intelligence.
    Then we have the complete opposite where some partners will deliberately try and hurt us, no care for us whatsoever they see a partner as an object of opposition, a person is in the way of trying to prevent them from gaining what they want, this selfish dangerous approach has always been shown in some judoka.

    Judo cannot make character changes overnight if ever...Judo is not some magical idealism that when we practice we fall under some magic spell and all become ready for sainthoods in 5 years. Judo was intended to be a vehicle where we are able to foster a good healthy body and mind and with that be of useful service to others.
    Make no mistake judo is practiced by human beings so judoka are fallible and no one can blame the education of judo for that. I speak of the ultimate goals-principles not the immediate actions made by fallible unpredictable human beings.. judoka varey from 1 to 10 as do all tings in life.

    Mike


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    Ogre

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Ogre on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:14 am

    Hanon wrote:The lessons learned from Shiai and general judo practice are taken from the dojo into our daily lives because we DO NOT learn to kill we learn to care

    What about that:
    We learn to care by learning to kill / prevent from getting killed?
    Iam still not sure what a choke (or other things I listed) has to do with taking care of people.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:20 am

    Ogre wrote:
    Hanon wrote:The lessons learned from Shiai and general judo practice are taken from the dojo into our daily lives because we DO NOT learn to kill we learn to care

    What about that:
    We learn to care by learning to kill / prevent from getting killed?
    Iam still not sure what a choke (or other things I listed) has to do with taking care of people.

    May I be blunt? If you don't understand the differences mentioned then you are a danger on a tatami to all who come into contact with you!

    Do I take it you strangle your partner to death? The idea is we strangle a partner who when he submits we stop! Hello I wrote stop not go the full Monty and kill the chap! You do NOT learn to kill for heavens sake you forsake such behaviour by learning to care? Is this notion totally foreign to you? Cant be as you would have zero members of the dojo you teach and train in.

    I think this thread is now at a point where you just dot want to understand, you appear to argue with the mirror.

    This is getting sillier by the post.

    Mike


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    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:40 am

    [quote]tz,

    Oh, nice, there is something i could agree with you.

    Glad we agree on something cheers Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


    But why the hell we call this strange Olympic sport, with its colored fighting suits, with it constantly rule changing for sake of
    more public attraction, with a winning by something called "ippon" obviously lacking the original 3 criteria of an "Ippon",
    with penalties forcing despairing attacks regardless of the right situation trying to owerpower the opponent,
    with inactivity penalties for one who is struggling to keep at his
    foots being attacked by the opponent, with incomprehensible / causeless stops of Newaza, with prohibited judo techniques from
    Nage-no-kata or Gokyo like Kata-guruma, Sukui-nage ... - why we still call this "judo"?
    (The BJJ people there are a little bit more honest, they call their judo descendant "BJJ", well knowing that the origin was Kodokan Judo teached by Maeda ;-) )

    Do you call olyimpic judo, judo, you really are naive aren't you Very Happy
    This was discussed several times on the old forum, Olympic and IJF judo is just business, money and has as much to do with judo as club cycling has to do with the "Tour de France"

    Sorry but it seems to me you're reading a different forum, I did not read some facts here
    which contradicts the Kano quotes provided by "tom herold" ... :-(

    Kano was not contradicted nur the interpretation and historical perspective of Tom'S conclusions.


    Btw.: I looked carefully at the instances of the written judo shiai rules listed at the old forum.
    There is no explicit prohibition of atemi-waza, there are some restrictions regarding kicks, some "hint" not to try to injure the opponent
    (regardless of technique), but not prohibition - other stuff is explicitly forbidden...

    I personally would not take all that was written on Judoinfo as factual or complete, I am sure the true historians her wouldn't either. Maybe one of them can give an exact reference?

    Indeed in the old forum i found a video of "Koji Komuro" where he kicks his opponent at his thigh with the intention
    to create space for applying a arm lock or so...

    Take a look at the last OG, Ole Bischof - Travis Stevens, there were also a coupleof punches etc.. but nearly everyone agrees that this was "not" good judo (in the spirit of judo) Very Happy
    atb

    sodo


    Last edited by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Ogre

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Ogre on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:41 am

    Up to this minute everyone on the tatami still survived me...compared to all my pseudo deathes it's a good sign.
    I don't know why you can't aceept that choking is a deadly technique.
    It's a fact, it's not taking care. It's not education. It's simply constriction of someones arterias/veines, to stop the blood supply to someones brain.

    You can't regret that.

    But you do.
    And that's a pity.

    You don't want to argue. You want to be the one who is right.
    Now you are, here you go.

    I wish you a good bye, that's no benefit for me.



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    Fritz

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:16 am

    Its obvious: We train to apply a choke, our partner taps, we don't go further.
    Same if our partner gets unconscious (if he forget to tap).
    But the choke itself is a dangerous, deadly thing.
    I think, that is everywhere people train fighting. No one want to be killed or hurt during training or competition...
    No one want to kill during training or competition.
    But - in my opinion - its not a bad thing to keep in mind - while training - that there can be situations outside the dojo in which
    someone can't get out a choke because of tapping...


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    cuivien

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by cuivien on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:21 am

    Ogre wrote:Did you look though Kodokan curriculum? Kata? Maybe? Nage-no-Kata? Tell me about the initial attack of uke in Uki-Goshi? Or seoi-nage?
    It's fairy tales? Weapon handling? If it's not an important part for you, why do you practise it?
    And why do you even "argue" in this topic if there is no progressive content in your posts? No asnwers. No questions.

    To be honest, I do not believe that any sane attacker with actual fighting experience >0 would draw a knife high up over his head and attack with a straight downwards cut the way it is done when defending with seoi-nage. The more circular attack from uki-goshi? Maybe, but that's also stretching it IMO Cool


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    Hanon

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:26 am

    Fritz wrote:Its obvious:

    We train to apply a choke, our partner taps, we don't go further.



    Exactly!

    And when our partner submits its called an ippon and not murder.

    Best wishes,

    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:35 am

    cuivien wrote:
    Ogre wrote:Did you look though Kodokan curriculum? Kata? Maybe? Nage-no-Kata? Tell me about the initial attack of uke in Uki-Goshi? Or seoi-nage?
    It's fairy tales? Weapon handling? If it's not an important part for you, why do you practise it?
    And why do you even "argue" in this topic if there is no progressive content in your posts? No asnwers. No questions.

    To be honest, I do not believe that any sane attacker with actual fighting experience >0 would draw a knife high up over his head and attack with a straight downwards cut the way it is done when defending with seoi-nage. The more circular attack from uki-goshi? Maybe, but that's also stretching it IMO Cool

    Hiya,

    Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.

    In terms of the seoinage attack in ther nage no kata it is not supposed to relate to a real street attack. The attack is real, it is an attack with the base of the fist to the head of tori. THE point of this attack is to demonstrate how tori does not block force but allows such a force to spend itself without coming into contact with its target. 'ALL' tori should do is guide ukes force to the floor, in theory and my practice I do not throw my uke. I let uke throw himself over what I put in his way, namely me! This is the classic judo use of maximum efficiency with minimum effort plus the rationale of non resistance and using ones ukes force against himself.

    Interesting twist in the thread. Smile

    Best,

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : addition.)


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    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:51 am

    Hi cuivien,
    To be honest, I do not believe that any sane attacker with actual fighting experience >0 would draw a knife high up over his head and attack with a straight downwards cut the way it is done when defending with seoi-nage. The more circular attack from uki-goshi? Maybe, but that's also stretching it IMO Cool

    My computer as gone funny and I keep losing may posts Embarassed so here goes again.

    You are correct the types of attack that you describe are extremely exagerated and not completely realistic, the reason that that I was taught was because Nage no Kata is not just the "textbook" forms of the throws but a description of the principles that are applied in deflecting and guiding the forces of the attacker, It is far easier to demonstrate these principles if the movements and forces are maximised.
    I am not an expert in kata as some judoka here (Wdax, Jonesy ect..) but I do have a good grasp of them. The main thing that I learnt was you cannot take the Kata anymore literally than you can the writtings of Kano, It all has to be put into perspective. Question

    maybe one of the experts could comment?

    atb

    sodo


    Last edited by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:28 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:57 am

    A kata is generally a set of actions and reactions set around a principle, or group of principles.

    Mike


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    cuivien

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by cuivien on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:56 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Hiya,

    Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.

    In terms of the seoinage attack in the nage no kata it is not supposed to relate to a real street attack. The attack is real, it is an attack with the base of the fist to the head of tori. THE point of this attack is to demonstrate how tori does not block force but allows such a force to spend itself without coming into contact with its target. 'ALL' tori should do is guide ukes force to the floor, in theory and my practice I do not throw my uke. I let uke throw himself over what I put in his way, namely me! This is the classic judo use of maximum efficiency with minimum effort plus the rationale of non resistance and using ones ukes force against himself.

    Interesting twist in the thread. Smile

    Best,

    Mike

    Actually I was hoping that someone besides you and sodo would bite Wink

    Like you, I have been taught that the 4 attacks are atemi, however one of my teachers have said something like "it could easily have been that uke was holding a blade, it doesn't really matter". <- This then was the background for what I wrote.
    Sodo says it well when writing that kata is simply "a description of the principles that are applied in deflecting and guiding the forces of the attacker" Smile

    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:30 am

    Hi cuivien
    Actually I was hoping that someone besides you and sodo would bite Wink


    Maybe the others involved in this conversation don't understand or maybe they just don't want to Twisted Evil

    atb

    sodo


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:17 am

    Hanon wrote:
    cuivien wrote:
    Ogre wrote:Did you look though Kodokan curriculum? Kata? Maybe? Nage-no-Kata? Tell me about the initial attack of uke in Uki-Goshi? Or seoi-nage?
    It's fairy tales? Weapon handling? If it's not an important part for you, why do you practise it?
    And why do you even "argue" in this topic if there is no progressive content in your posts? No asnwers. No questions.

    To be honest, I do not believe that any sane attacker with actual fighting experience >0 would draw a knife high up over his head and attack with a straight downwards cut the way it is done when defending with seoi-nage. The more circular attack from uki-goshi? Maybe, but that's also stretching it IMO Cool

    Hiya,

    Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.

    In terms of the seoinage attack in ther nage no kata it is not supposed to relate to a real street attack. The attack is real, it is an attack with the base of the fist to the head of tori. THE point of this attack is to demonstrate how tori does not block force but allows such a force to spend itself without coming into contact with its target. 'ALL' tori should do is guide ukes force to the floor, in theory and my practice I do not throw my uke. I let uke throw himself over what I put in his way, namely me! This is the classic judo use of maximum efficiency with minimum effort plus the rationale of non resistance and using ones ukes force against himself.

    Interesting twist in the thread. Smile

    Best,

    Mike

    I'm glad you cleared that up. Hopefully yet another person ignorant of the fact that Nage No Kata isn't about "street applications" or defending against attacks with weapons has been enlightened.

    I think that someone who practices Judo thinking "I could have killed you if I didn't let go of the shime waza", or "I could have dropped you on your head and broken your neck" probably needs psychological counseling. Of course, those things may be true, but to focus on or emphasize isn't necessary.

    More power to those who want to learn how to fight...Judo has some important lessons to teach, perhaps, but that's not what it's really all about, as you have very eloquently stated over and over again.







    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:18 am

    cuivien wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Hiya,

    Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.

    In terms of the seoinage attack in the nage no kata it is not supposed to relate to a real street attack. The attack is real, it is an attack with the base of the fist to the head of tori. THE point of this attack is to demonstrate how tori does not block force but allows such a force to spend itself without coming into contact with its target. 'ALL' tori should do is guide ukes force to the floor, in theory and my practice I do not throw my uke. I let uke throw himself over what I put in his way, namely me! This is the classic judo use of maximum efficiency with minimum effort plus the rationale of non resistance and using ones ukes force against himself.

    Interesting twist in the thread. Smile

    Best,

    Mike

    Actually I was hoping that someone besides you and sodo would bite Wink

    Like you, I have been taught that the 4 attacks are atemi, however one of my teachers have said something like "it could easily have been that uke was holding a blade, it doesn't really matter". <- This then was the background for what I wrote.
    Sodo says it well when writing that kata is simply "a description of the principles that are applied in deflecting and guiding the forces of the attacker" Smile

    Seoinage against an overhead knife attack is a good way to get cut/stabbed...badly.


    Fritz

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:06 am

    Hanon wrote:Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.
    Thats very interesting... There are atemi in the "randori-no-Kata"?
    Why? - you said in randori as you know and practise there should not be atemi - under no circumstances,
    whats is the reason, that they occur in the "randori-no-kata"?


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:41 am

    Fritz wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.
    Thats very interesting... There are atemi in the "randori-no-Kata"?
    Why? - you said in randori as you know and practise there should not be atemi - under no circumstances,
    whats is the reason, that they occur in the "randori-no-kata"?

    Note that there are atemi in all Kôdôkan kata with the exception of katame-no-kata and gô-no-kata.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:52 am

    Fritz wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Unsure IF you are saying that the nage no kata has weapons or when Uke attacks, uke is holding an imaginary knife or whatever? Nage no kata is only blows no weapons not even imaginary ones. The attacks are atemi waza

    Same with uki goshi, uke attacks the temple of tori hence the uki goshi counter.
    Thats very interesting... There are atemi in the "randori-no-Kata"?
    Why? - you said in randori as you know and practise there should not be atemi - under no circumstances,
    whats is the reason, that they occur in the "randori-no-kata"?

    In nage waza randori atemi waza are NOT allowed.

    A pair can 'randori' using atemi only or a mixture PROVIDING the pair understand the rules and are supervised. I have not seen either practiced in well over 30 years not even in my dojo. The risks of injury are too great for the general insurance companies federations of judoka today.

    The nage no kata is a motion story book on how a tori overcomes an ever attacking EVER LEARNING THUS ADAPTING uke.
    The atemi in the nage no kata are utilised to keep the story line progressing and to demonstrate a principle. Every atemi made differs from the one previously tried and failed.
    For the optimum learning experience and to be of true value uke must attack tori with true gusto and a determination to strike home. Of course when learning the attacks and defences one begins slowly then progresses to a full, hard, fast, real attack.

    In reality no attacker would attack using such an atemi and this is NOT the point. The point is to be found in the principle that being to demonstrate and practice the rational of attack-non resistence or simply put tori does not oppose a force with another force but uses the force of his uke against his uke thus in reality uke is seen to defeat himself.

    Mike


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Josef_Z on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:23 pm

    Hello,
    I am a student of Tom Herold.
    As a reader-only in this forum, I was shocked to a certain amount, how often certain things here are claimed and in no way proofen or even underlined by citations...
    Now, this and the general tone of some users here (not all and everybody!) made me a little bit sad, because previously I thougt of the American Judo Forum as a place of quality discussion and exchange of valuable information regarding the topic of Judo.
    As this may be true in some aspects/topics, in others i see a verry... poor... "argumentation".
    It seems to me, that some people don't want to discuss - they just want to 'prove' their point of view - regardless of any evidence.
    This is kind of sad.

    Hanon wrote:A pair can 'randori' using atemi only or a mixture PROVIDING the pair understand the rules and are supervised. I have not seen either practiced in well over 30 years not even in my dojo. The risks of injury are too great for the general insurance companies federations of judoka today.
    Dear Mr. Hanon, you are kidding us, aren't you?

    BillC

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by BillC on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:25 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:

    Seoinage against an overhead knife attack is a good way to get cut/stabbed...badly.


    I think it's probably a good way to get unzipped magnificently ... not badly.

    That said, some folks are really good at using this movement as a successful opportunity for seoinage against a vigorous overhand grab.

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