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    Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

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    BillC

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by BillC on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:34 pm

    Josef_Z wrote:Hello,
    I am a student of Tom Herold.
    As a reader-only in this forum, I was shocked to a certain amount, how often certain things here are claimed and in no way proofen or even underlined by citations...
    Now, this and the general tone of some users here (not all and everybody!) made me a little bit sad, because previously I thougt of the American Judo Forum as a place of quality discussion and exchange of valuable information regarding the topic of Judo.
    As this may be true in some aspects/topics, in others i see a verry... poor... "argumentation".
    It seems to me, that some people don't want to discuss - they just want to 'prove' their point of view - regardless of any evidence.
    This is kind of sad.

    Hanon wrote:A pair can 'randori' using atemi only or a mixture PROVIDING the pair understand the rules and are supervised. I have not seen either practiced in well over 30 years not even in my dojo. The risks of injury are too great for the general insurance companies federations of judoka today.
    Dear Mr. Hanon, you are kidding us, aren't you?

    Just to be clear ... this is not an "American Judo Forum." It's being run out of the UK ... most of the posters on this thread including the one you are quoting are European.

    Not sure why that matters, but with that said this thread and the whole Tom Herold thread are mysteries to me ... as in once again cue the theremin. alien

    cuivien

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by cuivien on Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:37 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    The nage no kata is a motion story book on how a tori overcomes an ever attacking EVER LEARNING THUS ADAPTING uke.
    The atemi in the nage no kata are utilised to keep the story line progressing and to demonstrate a principle. Every atemi made differs from the one previously tried and failed.
    For the optimum learning experience and to be of true value uke must attack tori with true gusto and a determination to strike home. Of course when learning the attacks and defences one begins slowly then progresses to a full, hard, fast, real attack.

    In reality no attacker would attack using such an atemi and this is NOT the point. The point is to be found in the principle that being to demonstrate and practice the rational of attack-non resistence or simply put tori does not oppose a force with another force but uses the force of his uke against his uke thus in reality uke is seen to defeat himself.

    This.

    I have learned/practiced the goshin-jutsu, but will by no means claim mastery of it, and thus request confirmation from higher-ups for the following...
    However, in my eyes it's the same story there for a lot of cases. Yes, there are atemi in there, and weapons as well, but the attacks are there to (again) demonstrate a principle. For instance, I would argue that the principle taught in technique #7 (kakae-dori) is similar to the sumi-gaeshi in the NNK, only that the lever is the arm, not the foot...


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    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:10 pm

    Hi Fritz,


    Thats very interesting... There are atemi in the "randori-no-Kata"?
    Why?- you said in randori as you know and practise there should not be atemi - under no circumstances,
    whats is the reason, that they occur in the "randori-no-kata"?
    If you read the thread the answer has already been given
    Nage no Kata is not just the "textbook" forms of the throws but a description of the principles that are applied in deflecting and guiding the forces of the attacker, It is far easier to demonstrate these principles if the movements and forces are maximised.

    Nage no Kata is not randori itself it is a kata, not everything in kata or even the randori no katafinds it's way into randori Very Happy

    Why do you and the other followers of Tom Herold insist oon repeating the same stupid questions when they have already been answered many times. What Tom is teaching is not judo, it is a LARPing club, it is not recognised by the DJB and not even by the DKK are embarrassed, and that takes some doing Rolling Eyes

    For everyones info
    Tom and his followers have been trolling the German judo Fora in the same way with the same questions and are getting the same answers and keep repeating the process till they either get thrown out or leave because the other posters are too stupid don't understand real judo pale

    It seems the trolls have found a new home Evil or Very Mad

    atb

    sodo



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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:21 pm

    Hi Josef_Z,

    I am a student of Tom Herold.

    well don'T come crying to us, get a lawyer and ask for your money back Twisted Evil

    As a reader-only in this forum, I was shocked to a certain amount, how often certain things here are claimed and in no way proofen or even underlined by citations...

    JonZ and cuivien do give very reliable sources with the appropriate qualified information that puts the quotes into perspective. Most of "what Kano wanted" and "original Kodakan judo, with toe locks etcc.. " tends not to be so well documanted.

    Now, this and the general tone of some users here (not all and everybody!) made me a little bit sad,


    That's life I am afraid, some people have a lower BS tolerance than others Evil or Very Mad

    because previously I thougt of the American Judo Forum as a place of quality discussion and exchange of valuable information regarding the topic of Judo.
    As this may be true in some aspects/topics, in others i see a verry... poor... "argumentation".

    Ther is some decent argumentation but if you do not want to read it or you are to stupid to understand it then the best posts in the world will not help Crying or Very sad


    It seems to me, that some people don't want to discuss - they just want to 'prove' their point of view - regardless of any evidence.

    I am assuming that you believe Tom's version of judo Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy well objectively all serious questions have been answered, Tom's followers seem to have a problem understanding them, I suggest that you find a serious judo club in your area, look on the DJB website for a list and get some proper instruction.

    atb

    sodo


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by finarashi on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:41 pm

    [quote="Ogre]
    Hello finarashi,

    I think you do missunderstand me.
    I'm saying that EVERY judo-technique IS dangerous. Man, it's based on koryu....
    I just don't see the difference of "harmfullness" between an armlock, a choke, a strike, a kick or a throw...?
    Since a throw is the most dynamical one (since you stand stop it when uke falls...) it's IN MY OPINION the most dangerous one.

    Sometimes I practise Muay Thai and MMA to complete my judo (since judoka are usually unwilling to practise atemi...). In those classes we punch our faces and kick in our livers like f******* hell, but everybody is aware of eath other.
    There is noone being brutally hurt (and I do it for a couple of years now).

    Why are the judoka so afraid of practicing atemi? Or joint-locks to minor joints?

    It's not that we can't prevent ourselves from injuries. We can. We proof in every day throwing-practising.

    I'd accept that you start using atemi (or any other mentioned "dangerous" technique) in your later education. But do you really do?
    Do you use atemi waza? Do you practise leg locks? (even though they are a part of judo kata)

    And if you don't...why?
    I mean... I don't care about other peoples judo training. You gotta do whatever you want and whatever you mean to be effective.
    You cut your own system for NO reason.

    No, it's (in my opinion) not dangerous! Seriously...(and thats what I wanted to stress with my example on seoi-nage), you do a shitfull of dangerous stuff, but avoid things for no reason.
    Yes, we are human...that's why we are intelligent enough not to harm our partners, neither with throwing nor with striking.

    YOu can have a complete system, either for your way of education (of body and mind) and my system of self-defense (to return back to the topic), but you refuse this one big part intentionally, even though it would be so easy to integrate it in your practise).

    But I think I won't understand.

    My kindest regards,

    your ogre[/quote]
    Even if you do not understand the relative dangerousness of differnt techniques some of the more experienced ones can recall differences, there are scientific studies on differences and also many insurers have some idea what is safe and what is not.

    How come boxing is dangerous (by scientific studies) but still you claim that striking isn't.

    I am a Judoka, I am vary of practicing joint locks because at my age my joints are not going to get any better and if they get worse then that is going to be a BIG problem. I think when you have 10 more years of experience your attitude on various locks can change. In the samll population of my Judo club there are three persons that have serious prblems because of leg locks. You can preach and advocate, but my simple sample says that practicing them is not safe.

    Why does one need to effective. I'm never stepping into ring to practice MMA. I hope that I don't have to participate to a bar fight. I do not have to train more to be bad a--. because of my confidence in my judo abilities I can be me. So why would I have to spend time and risk my health practicing something I feel I do not need.


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    Fritz

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:13 pm

    Hanon wrote:A pair can 'randori' using atemi only or a mixture PROVIDING the pair understand the rules and are supervised. I have not seen either practiced in well over 30 years not even in my dojo.
    Ok, then we are on the same path. Of course an atemi containing randori has to be supervised like every other
    randori maybe even a little bit more...

    But even with still slight intensity the participants discover many interesting experiences, which not occur during atemi-less randori - for instance:
    - some students tends to turn away from danger, some close their eyes
    - its very strenuous not to lost track of the "fight"
    - there is a little amount of "angst" to be kept under control
    - For me is was (to be honest to certain degree it still is) to switch to throws
    if it comes to "infight" resp. "close range" and (for me) its a lot more exhausting than atemi-less randori :-(

    The most serious injury we had was some nosebleed - ok, our goal is not to hurt or harm, but to provide and accept
    a little bit stress through some amount of pain... - Of course, we don't attack joints like knees with kicks,
    we don't attack the teeth / eyes / groins, we attack the spine not really and so on...
    And of course it is not for everyone and everytime...
    The participants their-self must want to do atemi randori.
    The risks of injury are too great for the general insurance companies federations of judoka today.
    The federation insurances in Germany are paying only for very very serious physical damages - in other words, i can't
    remember a case where they have paid someone something...
    Its strongly recommended to have a private accident and liability insurance policy...
    But other countries other insurances ;-)
    On the other side for our public health insurances its (still) no problem if someone engaged in a fighting sport
    and gets accidentally hurt... And the "culture" of suing someone because of unintentional sporting accidents is
    fortunately still not so common for us... ;-)
    sodo wrote:Why do you and the other followers of Tom Herold insist oon repeating the same stupid questions when they have already been answered many times. What Tom is teaching is not judo, it is a LARPing club, it is not recognised by the DJB and not even by the DKK are embarrassed, and that takes some doing
    Yes its true i know Tom by seminars and clinics provided by Frank Thiele.
    Frank Thiele was long years responsible in Hessen/Germany for teaching judo and preparing judoka for dan exams.
    More living judo history is hard to find in Germany...

    I'm wondering why "DJB recognition" is now a point for you - DJB is providing olympic judo in last instance...
    What did you say here in this thread?
    sodo wrote:Do you call olyimpic judo, judo, you really are naive aren't you Very Happy
    This was discussed several times on the old forum, Olympic and IJF judo is just business, money and has as much to do with judo as club cycling has to do with the "Tour de France
    Beside of this, your continuously uttered insulting "stupid" "BS" attitude is very very insightful...
    :-(


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    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:42 pm

    Hi Fritz,

    Yes its true i know Tom by seminars and clinics provided by Frank Thiele.
    Frank Thiele was long years responsible in Hessen/Germany for teaching judo and preparing judoka for dan exams.
    More living judo history is hard to find in Germany...
    Is that the same Frank Thiele that had his 9th Dan recinded because of "blattent over grading", DKK's words not mine silent

    I'm wondering why "DJB recognition" is now a point for you - DJB is providing olympic judo in last instance...
    What did you say here in this thread?

    The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
    It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No

    The Bullshit That I keep refering to is the incessant nitpicking on selective parts of posts and avoidance of real discussion on legitimate answers.

    This all falls under the generally widespread term of TROLLING.

    atb

    sodo




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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:49 pm

    sodo wrote:This all falls under the generally widespread term of TROLLING.
    Yes, but i did not want to say it so openly...
    ... your insight is the first step...
    Cool


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    sodo

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:00 pm

    Fritz wrote:
    sodo wrote:This all falls under the generally widespread term of TROLLING.
    Yes, but i did not want to say it so openly...
    ... your insight is the first step...
    Cool

    I notice you avoided the question:

    Is that the same Frank Thiele that had his 9th Dan recinded because of "blattent over grading", DKK's words not mine silent
    and you made no acknowledgement to

    The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
    It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No

    which just confirms my comment
    The Bullshit That I keep refering to is the incessant nitpicking on selective parts of posts and avoidance of real discussion on legitimate answers.

    Now what were you saying about trolls Very Happy

    atb

    sodo



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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:04 am

    Funny that my previous post was answered within 7 minutes, what makes my last one so hard to answer Twisted Evil

    BTW we are being watched with great interest
    http://www.dasjudoforum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6780 Very Happy
    our German cousins are hoping we have more luck with Tom's mythology than they did.

    atb

    sodo


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:10 am

    sodo wrote:I notice you avoided the question:

    Is that the same Frank Thiele that had his 9th Dan recinded because of "blattent over grading", DKK's words not mine silent
    Yes i avoided an answer, simple by the fact i did not understand you sentence.
    If i would guess, then i think you wanted to say "blatant" and "DDK" - the "Deutsche Dan Kollegium"
    which produced the first German Judo Judan in person of its current president D. Teige -
    the DDK which lost its "recognition" by the German Judo assoziation (DJB), okay... goodjob
    sodo wrote: and you made no acknowledgement to
    The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
    It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No
    I think, its my right ignore some of your and other statements,
    some of mine core points regarding the thread topic also are ignored too, so what...
    Rolling Eyes
    sodo wrote:Funny that my previous post was answered within 7 minutes, what makes my last one so hard to answer
    Its quite hard for me to keep polite...


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by sodo on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:55 am

    Hi Fritz,


    Yes i avoided an answer, simple by the fact i did not understand you sentence.
    If i would guess, then i think you wanted to say "blatant" and "DDK" - the "Deutsche Dan Kollegium"
    which produced the first German Judo Judan in person of its current president D. Teige -
    the DDK which lost its "recognition" by the German Judo assoziation (DJB), okay... goodjob

    Funny that you now understand Very Happy

    So holding high dan grades in the DDK is fine untill you have the grade recinded, then the DDK becomes an unrecognised mickey mouse association run by overblown dan grades Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Nice one Twisted Evil



    sodo wrote: and you made no acknowledgement to
    The DJB is as you should know the NGB for Judo in Germany, ONE of the things they are responsible for is the German Olympic team and Elite judo, the are also responsible for judo as "Breitensport" ie. recreational judo, school judo, and the general promotion of judo and the upkeep of grading syllabi, grading standards and records of officially recognised gradings.
    It is I believe the grading standards where Herr Thiele und Tom fell foul No
    I think, its my right ignore some of your and other statements,
    some of mine core points regarding the thread topic also are ignored too, so what...
    Rolling Eyes
    sodo wrote:Funny that my previous post was answered within 7 minutes, what makes my last one so hard to answer
    Its quite hard for me to keep polite...[/quote]


    What you find it impolite to point out that the internationally recognise NGB for judo has other functions than just olympic judo No

    btw What were the core points you made that did not get answered?

    I know it is very difficuilt to stay polite when you are bs'ing and you get caught out and you have no more arguments left, sad isn't it Rolling Eyes

    atb

    sodo



    Last edited by sodo on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:03 am; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by cuivien on Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:41 am

    I'm going to make one last attempt here based on a primary source. Accuse me of selective quoting or whatever, but at least I'm making an effort of getting back to topic.

    1902, Uchida Ryôhei. Now, a lot of things can be said about this book, and a lot has already been said, but it is still one of, or the earliest, jûdô book in existence. I'm not going to regurgitate the discussions brought about by the various topics herein, (1) because people are probably not interested; (2) because you need a pretty firm knowledge of both religious and ideological discourse to partake; and (3) because frankly I'm getting tired of reading this debate. Razz

    Under the topic of 柔道修業の階級 "the levels of jûdô training" (pp.78-84) he postulates three levels roughly equivalent to lower, middle, and upper, and that progression in these goes as follows:

    初段:勝負・運動・体育・勇・行
    中段:明察・到知・智育・智・断
    上段:練心・正心・徳育・仁・得
    Translation:
    Beginner: competition/fighting -> training -> physical education/growth -> courage -> filial piety
    Middle: Insight -> "arriving at knowledge" -> "intellectual education/growth" -> wisdom -> judgment
    Upper: "refinement of the spirit" -> "proper/just spirit" -> "moral education/growth" -> benevolence -> obtainment

    Now then, even if we accept the fact that shôbu, which is commonly translated as "competition" or "fight" is at the beginning (i.e. a fundamental skill), there are 14 sub-levels above this. Taking the lower one, I think (yes, I write "think". This is seriously old stuff, and he writes in pretty difficult Japanese) what Uchida is saying is that shôbu teaches more generally which movements works and which do not, then understanding about effective movement teaches you more about physical education, which in turn turns into courage or uplifted spirits, which finally turns into filial piety. Thus "fighting" is something you're supposed to "graduate" from eventually.



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    finarashi

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by finarashi on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:23 am

    cuivien wrote:I'm going to make one last attempt here based on a primary source. Accuse me of selective quoting or whatever, but at least I'm making an effort of getting back to topic.

    1902, Uchida Ryôhei. Now, a lot of things can be said about this book, and a lot has already been said, but it is still one of, or the earliest, jûdô book in existence. I'm not going to regurgitate the discussions brought about by the various topics herein, (1) because people are probably not interested; (2) because you need a pretty firm knowledge of both religious and ideological discourse to partake; and (3) because frankly I'm getting tired of reading this debate. Razz

    Under the topic of 柔道修業の階級 "the levels of jûdô training" (pp.78-84) he postulates three levels roughly equivalent to lower, middle, and upper, and that progression in these goes as follows:

    初段:勝負・運動・体育・勇・行
    中段:明察・到知・智育・智・断
    上段:練心・正心・徳育・仁・得
    Translation:
    Beginner: competition/fighting -> training -> physical education/growth -> courage -> filial piety
    Middle: Insight -> "arriving at knowledge" -> "intellectual education/growth" -> wisdom -> judgment
    Upper: "refinement of the spirit" -> "proper/just spirit" -> "moral education/growth" -> benevolence -> obtainment

    Now then, even if we accept the fact that shôbu, which is commonly translated as "competition" or "fight" is at the beginning (i.e. a fundamental skill), there are 14 sub-levels above this. Taking the lower one, I think (yes, I write "think". This is seriously old stuff, and he writes in pretty difficult Japanese) what Uchida is saying is that shôbu teaches more generally which movements works and which do not, then understanding about effective movement teaches you more about physical education, which in turn turns into courage or uplifted spirits, which finally turns into filial piety. Thus "fighting" is something you're supposed to "graduate" from eventually.

    graduate from not graduate to


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:32 am

    this thread is getting exceedingly tiresome. if you have something really important to add do it soon as it may get closed soon.


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:22 am

    genetic judoka wrote:this thread is getting exceedingly tiresome. if you have something really important to add do it soon as it may get closed soon.

    Bravo. Just do it. I no longer have a clue what the thread is even about.

    Mike


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Jon Z on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:40 am

    Hi Ogre,

    I hope I am not too late to try to offer an argument that will be productive in answering what I take to be the point you’ve raised in this thread.

    It seems to me you are asking the question slightly wrong which is why it is difficult to answer in a way that is satisfactory to you. I may be wrong but I think you are asking “why are some things included and others excluded?” when I think you should be asking a slightly different question: “why were some things included and others excluded?” Emphasis on the were.

    So why were some things included and others excluded? You are trying to address this as a question of logic (x is as dangerous as y but x is not banned) but it cannot be answered on that level because it is fundamentally a historical question.

    In a way, thinking about the design of jūdō from the perspective of the history of technology or the history of design will get you much further than arguing this out as if it were a question for analytical philosophy.

    Here is a paper, which I posted earlier in a different thread, which explains the context for some of the early decisions made about what was and was not safe for practice within schools (see for example pp.5-6):

    http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/gQfXSh9kgpviKhkeE9Qe/full

    This is the backdrop for the decisions that Kanō made about what to include and exclude in jūdō randori and shia. He – and many others – wanted to get jūdō/jūjutsu into the school curriculum (in place of or at least in addition to western calisthenics). So he was responding to the findings of a commission about what was considered dangerous. There is more specific information on what the commission specifically objected to in a book (in Japanese) by Tōdō Yoshiaki which is in my office and I will try to retrieve it some time this week. But the main point is that the environment of this early set of discussions revolved around what was dangerous and how to take the dangerous elements out of jūdō to make it palatable.

    Now you can argue that this commission was either wrong, or stupid, or even that it was willfully trying to keep jūjutsu out of schools (in a bid to westernize) and so was throwing up roadblocks that no one believed in but actually none of that really matters in trying to understand the specific decisions that Kanō made in response to this to meet the definitions within which he was working. Whether you agree or not with Miyake, Balz, and Scriba is totally irrelevant because this is the context that shapes the decisions Kanō makes early on about how to design the rules for randori/shiai.

    It is also worth pointing out a fact I’ve mentioned before about the whether strikes in kata should be considered realistic or not – many people living in the late nineteenth century still believed in the idea of kyūsho (vital points), i.e. you could kill someone with a well placed strike. It does not matter at all whether you or I believe this theory, the point is to understand why someone living in the later nineteenth century might feel that striking and kicking posed an unacceptable level of risk it’s important to understand that people at that time believed a well placed strike to a vital point would cause death. So according to that logic (which we may not share) then striking does become an especially dangerous activity, esp. since jūjutsu striking in Tenjin Shinyō ryū for example was completed based around vital points.

    The point about the history of technology/design is something sometimes referred to as lock-in or path dependency: little decisions made early on in the development of a design (here in the design of jūdō) get locked in early on for reasons that may have nothing to do with the original intention of the designer (here Kanō) but may be responding to certain factors in the environment (how to get jūdō into schools). But once these decisions are made, they are hard to “undo” even if there is some benefit to undoing them in your estimation (i.e. designing a form of randori that incorporates strikes and kicks).

    When you are dealing with a historical problem it is really not very useful to ask abstractly which is better if you want to understand why something has turned out the way it has; if on the other hand you want to improve the design yourself then of course you are free to go ahead but that’s where I think Sodo is right that at a certain point what you are taking about ceases to be jūdō and becomes something else. Because jūdō is defined by certain rules that are internally coherent and consistent even if not every rule makes sense in terms of what might be “optimal” in the “real world.” But that is hardly the case with any human endeavor (because nothing is developed in a historical and social vacuum) and there is no reason to expect jūdō to be any different.

    Jon Z

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Jon Z on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:42 am

    Cuivien,

    Just a quick note. Uchida Ryōhei is actually exactly the wrong person to quote in making this argument. He was all about the martial application of jūdō and writes about this in the book. At one point early on (sorry it’s been a couple of years since I read it so I don’t remember exactly when) he actually argues that jūjutsu in the Edo period was basically totally unrealistic and he wanted to instill real combat techniques into jūdō to make it effective on the battlefield. Just read the preface (after Kanō’s) about the guy wandering alone across Manchuria or read about some of Uchida’s adventures in Korea. BTW, at one point Saigō Shirō (well after he left the KDK) was supposed to go over to Manchuria with a paramilitary group affiliated with the Kokuryūkai. As best I can understand the documents, I think he didn’t end up going but I’ve never really figured out the puzzle.

    Also, if you want to understand what Uchida means by shōbu, take a look at his shōbu no kata at the end of the book. It's got lot of striking and breaking little bits of your opponent (and yes, Uchida's talking about opponents, not partners)

    Jon Z

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:03 am

    Thanks Jon_Z for your last very informative postings.

    At least you say, Kano had to make compromises to put Judo into schools...
    Well - today we have some kinds of sport in the schools too, but its already accepted thats there are "school version"
    of the sport, the rules can differ, the "training" of course too...
    The same in ordinary school subjects - no one believes, that the "mathematic" at school is all to known about mathematic...

    And how to explain in this context is the role of the Butokukai?



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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by ThePieman on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:14 pm

    Fritz wrote:Thanks Jon_Z for your last very informative postings.

    At least you say, Kano had to make compromises to put Judo into schools...
    Well - today we have some kinds of sport in the schools too, but its already accepted thats there are "school version"
    of the sport, the rules can differ, the "training" of course too...
    The same in ordinary school subjects - no one believes, that the "mathematic" at school is all to known about mathematic...

    And how to explain in this context is the role of the Butokukai?


    I think you may be missing the point slightly, it was not a "school version" of judo released into the schools, judo in its entirety was fashioned to meet the criteria and to overcome the obstacles placed before kano, it was a complete judo taught in schools.

    Judo is what it is, if you read the paper then you were esentially reading details of the "big bang" of judo, the building blocks, as Jon Z describes when he writes about path dependency, there is no changing judo now to suit X,Y ot Z changing it is creating something different and there is plenty of that about.


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by ThePieman on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:16 pm

    By the way, a superb post again Jon Z!

    Thanks for your time. Smile


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by BillC on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:39 pm

    ThePieman wrote:By the way, a superb post again Jon Z!

    Thanks for your time. Smile

    Yeah, isn't it cool to read stuff like this on the new and improved Judo Forum?

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by finarashi on Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:21 pm

    I like us!
    That is without me doing anything we make great progress. Thanks Jon Z


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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by cuivien on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:49 pm

    Jon Z wrote:Cuivien,

    Just a quick note. Uchida Ryōhei is actually exactly the wrong person to quote in making this argument. He was all about the martial application of jūdō and writes about this in the book. At one point early on (sorry it’s been a couple of years since I read it so I don’t remember exactly when) he actually argues that jūjutsu in the Edo period was basically totally unrealistic and he wanted to instill real combat techniques into jūdō to make it effective on the battlefield. Just read the preface (after Kanō’s) about the guy wandering alone across Manchuria or read about some of Uchida’s adventures in Korea. BTW, at one point Saigō Shirō (well after he left the KDK) was supposed to go over to Manchuria with a paramilitary group affiliated with the Kokuryūkai. As best I can understand the documents, I think he didn’t end up going but I’ve never really figured out the puzzle.

    Also, if you want to understand what Uchida means by shōbu, take a look at his shōbu no kata at the end of the book. It's got lot of striking and breaking little bits of your opponent (and yes, Uchida's talking about opponents, not partners)

    Jon Z

    Jon Z, you're right. His thoughts are very much upon the martial aspects of jûdô. I guess I should have made that clear in the last post, and also I should have re-read some of the stuff surrounding the quote I pulled out. It's been a while since I really sat down and read his book for me as well and in this case I just went back to a word file containing the various chapter/sub-chapter titles and looked for something to use. I was annoyed with the direction the thread was going in, and decided to cite what I cited to show something like "hey, look, there's this guy, and he's pretty crazy, but even he acknowledges the fact that there's more to the art than just fighting". (should probably go back and add some more info to the previous post)

    P.s. I remember NBK was supposed to translate that shôbu-no-kata, how's the progress on that?

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    Re: Shiai rules in context of Kanos "First Level" of Judo

    Post by Fritz on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:28 pm

    Maybe this is the reason of the whole misunderstandings in these threads:
    but even he acknowledges the fact that there's more to the art than just fighting
    No one of the discussants denies that judo is more than just fighting.
    But some of us deny that judo should be no fighting.
    The ability to fight is the/a basement of the whole remaining part (pedagogic, moral)...
    Maybe there are other ways the achieve the pedagogical goals from Kano (somewhere there is a statement about that),
    but the way of ju is via the ability to fight...


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