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    if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

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    genetic judoka

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    if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by genetic judoka on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:14 am

    what would your reaction be? would you be more or less likely to enter?


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    nomoremondays

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by nomoremondays on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:25 am

    genetic judoka wrote:what would your reaction be? would you be more or less likely to enter?

    about even at this point. But barely. Still have to figure out the full impact of post 2012 on my 'game' for me to make a clear decision really, but first impressions are not good. Also, fwiw, i was a proponent of the post 2009 to 2012 rules so they were not really a dealbreaker for me. But these new ones...
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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:30 am

    um, if i need to get a new gi (er, more than one since i don't own an IJF certified blue gi), i'm not doing the tourney no matter what other rules they choose to use or not use.

    are there specific rules you're talking about? The freestyle judo movement seems to include a lot more waza than any recent IJF iteration, and has to some degree gained substantially by the continued evisceration of legitimate judo waza by the IJF.

    Also remember, it's up to the tournament director to decide which rule set to use, and even then, there's usually some tweaking that goes along with it, especially in combined divisions. The only tourneys that are really stuck with IJF rules are points tourneys, and even then, it's only in the point awarding divisions that strict adherence to the IJF is required. You're not going to see a lot of sokuteki use on an 8 year old yellow belt's sleeves, no matter how "strict" the tourney is.

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:31 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:what would your reaction be? would you be more or less likely to enter?
    I have always gone where the judo is. Its the people ON the mat who make judo what it is not the IJF and their rules.
    Enjoy judo when ever where ever you can. Keep the politics for forum's and board rooms.
    Now about this progress report on you harai tsuri komi ashi! You keep avoiding the issue?Twisted Evil Tell me all about your progress.affraid
    Mike


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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:56 pm

    I wouldn't go out of my way, it could be a problem for a player in a training cycle for a major tournament. I definatley would have any player with in 90 days of a major event stay away. This doesn't mean I don't like free style judo, it just would not be a thing I would encourage my players to attend.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:39 am

    I expected more favorable reactions. there are quite a few very skilled judoka in my area who are a real pleasure to get paired up with in randori, who I am told used to be quite successful in shiai, who no longer compete because they hate the new rules, and don't really care about the next championship so they have no motivation to keep up to date with what the IJF is up to this week.

    these guys don't wanna drive 2 hours and pay an entry fee, only to get a HSM for doing the judo waza they have honed to a high degree of skill over their lifetime, which has only recently become illegal, and I don't mean wrestlers who own a gi, I mean really good judoka, who might grab a leg here and there.

    I figured those people would be thrilled at a chance to compete again under rules more familiar to them. also I figured there would be at least a few of those people on here.

    and Mike, my HTKA is gathering dust. my knee is giving me hell again, so I'll still break it out here and there on light people just to keep from forgetting it entirely, but it is not the waza it used to be. however in it's place I've been developing a version of kosoto gari where I bring one foot into the other (I'm tempted to call it okuri ashi harai but it is very much a gari motion, there's no harai action present), and I've been having a good degree of success with that lately.

    I've got a lot of video stacking up on my hard drive from recent classes, but with my 6 day per week training schedule, full course load at school, full time job, AND a very lively new wife (so to speak) I don't often find time to watch them, much less post them.


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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:56 am

    GJ, we have different priorites Sr nationals is only 10 weeks out and after that Junior nationals will be 11 weeks later. BTW how far are you from
    Virgina Beach? SmileSmile

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:58 am

    genetic judoka wrote:what would your reaction be? would you be more or less likely to enter?

    My reaction would be the same. The rule changes since 2009 hasn't impacted my Judo one bit as my typical repertroire for shiai doesn't include any leg grabbing. Osoto gari, ko soto gari, harai goshi, tai otoshi, o uchi gari, ko uchi gari, and ippon seoi nage are the throws I typically rely on. Obviously I have other throws that I use in randori that I can execute but don't use in shiai. Of course, I have a lot of other throws I can't do in randori either.

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:02 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I expected more favorable reactions. there are quite a few very skilled judoka in my area who are a real pleasure to get paired up with in randori, who I am told used to be quite successful in shiai, who no longer compete because they hate the new rules, and don't really care about the next championship so they have no motivation to keep up to date with what the IJF is up to this week.

    these guys don't wanna drive 2 hours and pay an entry fee, only to get a HSM for doing the judo waza they have honed to a high degree of skill over their lifetime, which has only recently become illegal, and I don't mean wrestlers who own a gi, I mean really good judoka, who might grab a leg here and there.

    I really don't blame them. There are costs to attending competitions apart from entry fees that don't make it worth while. At least they still practice and make it fun for you.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:19 am

    Just to mention that nothing prevents people from organizing a tournament under Kodokan rules instead of under IJF rules either ...


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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:37 am

    genetic judoka wrote:what would your reaction be? would you be more or less likely to enter?

    What rules is Dale using in his Orlando tournament? Have you asked him? And most important of all are you going to pitch in and help him?

    Cheers.

    Bill
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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:08 am

    BillC wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:what would your reaction be? would you be more or less likely to enter?

    What rules is Dale using in his Orlando tournament? Have you asked him? And most important of all are you going to pitch in and help him?

    Cheers.

    Bill
    What help?ShockedShocked
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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:15 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Just to mention that nothing prevents people from organizing a tournament under Kodokan rules instead of under IJF rules either ...
    As you know the only major problem would be getting a sanction, that could be posible but it would need to be passed by the sanctioning body. With out a sanction you have no insurance and could be hard to get a venue or have referees show up.
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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:24 am

    don't you think the most important aspect of a tournament is that there is a sanction from one governing body or another? that way, if you do get hurt, there is some insurance backing.

    i do want the rule set clearly enunciated before i show up. i do not want to show up and get no competition (happens too much). I do think it's unfair to ask people who are aiming for the senior elite roster to go to a tournament that doesn't practice the rule set of senior elite athletes. That said, most of use are not senior elite or aiming for senior elite.

    There is a freestyle option. Don't know how having a junior program impacts the attendance at freestyle shiai. If there was a freestyle shiai in my area, and i was up to competing, i'd go. if it was scheduled for the same time/day as a senior elite tournament, then i'd look at the past history in my category and surrounding categories. I'd go to the tournament where i'm more likely to face the most competition. My category is rarely compliant with IJF standards - it's usually blended size and weight and ranks. So, really, the IJF has little impact on what i do and when i do it in shiai.

    just my .02. That, and i will not buy new judogi simply to meet some arbitrary requirement and make the IJF a few extra bucks. Not that into the back patch, either.
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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:24 am

    judoratt wrote:
    What help?ShockedShocked

    Not sure I understand your comment sir, but I am following up comments that our young friend back on the old forum. As I recall, he was bemoaning the lack our tournament opportunities in the Land of Liquid Sunshine. I advised at that time that he might involve himself in what local tournaments do exist so he could learn the ropes and start hosting his own.

    Happened to notice a tourney in Orlandoland in the near future, a short drive from JG's hideout. I am suggesting he volunteer to do things like hand out flyers, move mats, handle registrations, write pool sheets, weigh in competitors, work the timing/scoring tables ... load mats after the tournament ... and all those little things that can be done before and after competing which will give insight into being a tournament director (the actual one, not the suit that likes to hand out awards and be in pictures handing out awards).


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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:32 am

    BillC wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    What help?ShockedShocked



    Happened to notice a tourney in Orlandoland in the near future, a short drive from JG's hideout. I am suggesting he volunteer to do things like hand out flyers, move mats, handle registrations, write pool sheets, weigh in competitors, work the timing/scoring tables ... load mats after the tournament ... and all those little things that can be done before and after competing which will give insight into being a tournament director (the actual one, not the suit that likes to hand out awards and be in pictures handing out awards).

    ++
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:48 am

    judoratt wrote:
    As you know the only major problem would be getting a sanction, that could be posible but it would need to be passed by the sanctioning body. With out a sanction you have no insurance and could be hard to get a venue or have referees show up.

    And THAT is why those involved in sanctioning I hope will be a bit open minded ... maybe USA Judo is putting a stake in the ground, but there are other national organizations.

    At the moment, they do make exceptions all the time. Medical rules. Mat size. Weight divisions. Brackets versus stay standing. Judogi colors, fit, patches, etc. In fact, most US events do not strictly follow the IJF rules.

    People DO get their tender parts in a wringer when the subject of refereeing rules comes up ... specifically those involving penalties. Had a referee throw an absolute tantrum when I said I wanted the tournament director (me) called and consulted before he disqualified any competitors for judogi infractions. I wasn't going to send a kid home because the belt he picked up off the table was the wrong size, or because he had Gracie patches all over his otherwise white judogi. Correct, perhaps, but not disqualify. The referee ... you know and love him RattMan ... didn't like it but it stuck ... it was in the TOURNAMENT rules as advertised on the flyer and approved by the sanctioning body.

    Some YDK have enough oomph that they have gotten away with modifying IJF rules with local tournament rules for years. No? How about the no "drop knee seoi" rules in NorCal? How about the tiny mats at LA area events? How about the "matwork only" tournaments that sometimes still take place here and there ... sanctioned.

    I think there is an opening, with the right attitude, to modify IJF rules for local tournament considerations. Yes, if one goes looking to force a confrontation please expect people to push back. But if, for example, YDK and tournament directors want to make tournament rules that tolerate otherwise penalized moves I know they can do so. One might, for example, bring up the subject of inclusion ... not wanting to send people home for less than a safety infraction or gross misbehavior ... especially if the intent is to attract new judoka.

    If the subject is approached with reason and not bluster that is ...
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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:51 am

    I like Dale, he's a good guy. I am friendly with a lot of people at his club, so I would like to support his yearly event. but I'd be lying if I said that was a well run tournament. staying to help load the mats would have me starting that task around 8pm despite the very small number of attendees. I don't particularly wanna get involved in that one. to be honest I don't even wanna be a competitor in that one.

    however there's a tournament next weekend that unless I'm mistaken will be the last local one before the 2013 rules kick in. I will be attending that one if I can stay in one piece until then.


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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:02 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I like Dale, he's a good guy. I am friendly with a lot of people at his club, so I would like to support his yearly event. but I'd be lying if I said that was a well run tournament. staying to help load the mats would have me starting that task around 8pm despite the very small number of attendees. I don't particularly wanna get involved in that one. to be honest I don't even wanna be a competitor in that one.

    however there's a tournament next weekend that unless I'm mistaken will be the last local one before the 2013 rules kick in. I will be attending that one if I can stay in one piece until then.

    Attending ... but are you going to provide substantial help? And if Dale's events are not well run, what can YOU do about it? Not an accusation, buddy, just a suggestion.

    What's messed up? If the issue is getting people to their mats, this typical problem of herding cats for example, bring a little cheap copy/scan/fax with you and offer (strongly) to copy and post the brackets before they go to the table (in case your genius is slipping for a moment, there are huge advantages to having friends in the pooling room). Offer to bring cheap stanchions and construction tape to contain and count as present those aforementioned cats before marching them complete to the mat.

    Some people are possessive about their events, but most will tolerate improvements as long as the manpower and materials are provided.
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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:33 am

    genetic judoka wrote:I like Dale, he's a good guy. I am friendly with a lot of people at his club, so I would like to support his yearly event. but I'd be lying if I said that was a well run tournament. staying to help load the mats would have me starting that task around 8pm despite the very small number of attendees. I don't particularly wanna get involved in that one. to be honest I don't even wanna be a competitor in that one.

    however there's a tournament next weekend that unless I'm mistaken will be the last local one before the 2013 rules kick in. I will be attending that one if I can stay in one piece until then.
    I will say it again "What me help?"Shocked
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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:49 am

    Last year I was the tournament director/co director for four tournaments that included junior nationals 650 athletes Continental Crown and two local events. We have great volunters that throw some of the best tournaments in the country. The secret is the volunters.
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:29 am

    judoratt wrote:I will say it again "What me help?"Shocked

    judoratt wrote:Last year I was the tournament director/co director for four tournaments that included junior nationals 650 athletes Continental Crown and two local events. We have great volunters that throw some of the best tournaments in the country. The secret is the volunters.

    Ah. I get it. I had not expected dry humor ... or anything dry ... from your part of the planet.

    And may I ask ... already having a good guess at the answer ... did you just wake up one day having never done anything like it before as tournament director? And was there so much help ... a mile long queue of volunteers in kneepads at the dojo door ... that all you had to do was think it and stuff magically got done?

    Or would you have said to GJ ... heck ya ... here's a chair, get working!
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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:56 am

    I'd imagine that the key to getting and keeping good volunteers (volunteers who come back year after year) is to have good perks for those volunteers, to be organized for those volunteers, and to be nice to those volunteers. Free food, t-shirts, and the ability to share the ref's room (where they won't be harassed by parents and coaches). Giving them plenty of time for potty breaks. Allow older, more experienced workers to teach younger, and use the energy of the younger for running tasks (communication between tables and organizers, etc).

    Of course, there's always blackmail, too (your next promotion depends on you bringing in and helping set up/tear down mats in at least 4 tournaments).
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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:41 am

    [quote="BillC"]
    judoratt wrote:I will say it again "What me help?"Shocked

    judoratt wrote:Last year I was the tournament director/co director for four tournaments that included junior nationals 650 athletes Continental Crown and two local events. We have great volunters that throw some of the best tournaments in the country. The secret is the volunters.

    Ah. I get it. I had not expected dry humor ... or anything dry ... from your part of the planet.

    And may I ask ... already having a good guess at the answer ... did you just wake up one day having never done anything like it before as tournament director? And was there so much help ... a mile long queue of volunteers in kneepads at the dojo door ... that all you had to do was think it and stuff magically got done?

    Or would you have said to GJ ... heck ya ... here's a chair, get working![/quote

    When I was younger I was always good setting up the mats that was my job. I still remember Junior Nationals Spokane 1989 myself and 2 other volunteers setting the mats up until 6 o'clock in the morning.
    Things have changed around here now when we have an event everybody pitches in. Our hospitality is second to none, and we work really hard to take care of the volunteers. Not to brag at all , we have some of the best volunteers in the country here. Have we sufficiently derailed this post?
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:09 pm

    judoratt wrote: Have we sufficiently derailed this post?

    I prefer to think of it as answering the question and subsequent questions in great detail Rolling Eyes

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