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    if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:35 pm

    have any of you run into the problem of wanting to help with the tournament, but having to make the decision to move mats (including wrestling mats) the night before? It's almost a choice between competing in shiai OR helping with the set-up, especially as you get older.

    One fellow says, "parents and spouses of people competing who are members of the host club are responsible for the set up, adult and near adult competitors are responsible for the tear down" don't know that that's a great option, either, but at least it places the work burden on the people who aren't expected to perform at shiai until AFTER the shiai.

    Don't know that there're a lot of adults willing to hang out until the shiai is over to tear down. I'm usually ready for a long bath and an even longer sleep after shiai. I try to hang out and help with set up/tear down when things are local. It can be hard to find help with those, most onerous tasks.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by nomoremondays on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:36 pm

    The general response to the bad rules seems to be "are you willing to help host a tournament with modified rules?"
    I would say, yes, of course, depending on the caveat of various day to day practicalities. But I would say that many of us here are scrubs in the judo hierarchy - colored belts and lower level blacks. To the ones who have the pull, who coach, who have their names appear before 'tournament director', I would ask in return, how many of you are willing to host such a modified rules tournament and potentially invite the ire of your sanctioning body and peers?
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:25 am

    nomoremondays wrote:The general response to the bad rules seems to be "are you willing to help host a tournament with modified rules?"
    I would say, yes, of course, depending on the caveat of various day to day practicalities. But I would say that many of us here are scrubs in the judo hierarchy - colored belts and lower level blacks. To the ones who have the pull, who coach, who have their names appear before 'tournament director', I would ask in return, how many of you are willing to host such a modified rules tournament and potentially invite the ire of your sanctioning body and peers?

    Short answer ... yes. Either read this thread again carefully or look around elsewhere on today's new posts.

    "...ire of your sanctioning body and peers?" ... see, that's what I call looking for a fight.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by nomoremondays on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:17 am

    BillC wrote:
    nomoremondays wrote:The general response to the bad rules seems to be "are you willing to help host a tournament with modified rules?"
    I would say, yes, of course, depending on the caveat of various day to day practicalities. But I would say that many of us here are scrubs in the judo hierarchy - colored belts and lower level blacks. To the ones who have the pull, who coach, who have their names appear before 'tournament director', I would ask in return, how many of you are willing to host such a modified rules tournament and potentially invite the ire of your sanctioning body and peers?

    Short answer ... yes. Either read this thread again carefully or look around elsewhere on today's new posts.

    "...ire of your sanctioning body and peers?" ... see, that's what I call looking for a fight.

    Fair enough. I am patient. Lets see how this plays out. I will be participating and keeping track of which comps follow which rule systems over the course of the year. Will make up my mind afterwards.
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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:36 pm

    It's my guess that least 95 percent of the tournaments ran in the US this next year will be run under the new rules.
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:40 pm

    judoratt wrote:It's my guess that least 95 percent of the tournaments ran in the US this next year will be run under the new rules.

    RattMan you may be correct IF you are just talking about the refereeing rules about competitor moves during a contest ... the no contact below the waist, the no two hand break, etc. In fact, I think most referees will overcompensate so much looking to enforce the new rules that the rate of enforcement will easily exceed 100% ... because we all know referees that really, really like rules and calling the rules ... you know, because judo is all about watching referees! Rolling Eyes

    But if you talk about the CARE system, the mat size ... and application of rules to children ... my guess is that 95% or more will not and will continue to make exceptions, expressed in their tournament rules or not.

    BTW ... anyone in the market for some barely used but now totally useless judo scoreboards? Think USA Judo has a budget to refund us our money?
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    NBK

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by NBK on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:12 pm

    why are the scoreboards unusable?
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:54 pm

    NBK wrote:why are the scoreboards unusable?

    Mr. Natural, you have to appreciate that not everyone is as young and mentally nimble as we are. Some, though the gift of age and its companion wisdom, are more inclined to careful consideration.

    They were purchased by our YDK just before the "no koka" rule changes. We covered up that section with black plastic, but the logic in the controller still automatically adds small scores for penalties to the other side ... for example.

    With the inside info from my big-time JudoForum buddies, I argued against the purchase at the time and for a PC/bigscreen combo, noting rumors that the new management at the IJF was going to stir things up in small, excruciating increments like removing one of those really good hospital bandaids. But the truth is we got a few years of good use out of them ... though not really in proportion to what a small YDK can afford on a regular basis ... still probably something like $100 per table per use. Can we now coddle together three or four PCs and some big monitors? Maybe folks will donate use of theirs for the day if theirs are not screwed to the shelf like mine is ... this is earthquake country after all ... as this just happened the brain trust has not had a chance to react ... I don't think those that watch the purse strings have even read the new rules yet ... and I don't think we are alone.

    Mats ... we just acquired enough for three legal areas that barely fit the width of the gym we most often rent for tournaments ... because the AD's kid is a member and gets it for the cost of the janitor's overtime ... our mats fit perfectly across with no room to spare ... oh and we just got a brand new shiny trailer that can store and haul all those mats in one shot. A new gym, new mats, a new trailer ... yeah, I think some exceptions are going to be made. Frankly speaking, I think we'll apply rule #3.

    Hey, solving problems like this are why judo flunkies like me make those big judo bucks. I mean, all those kickbacks we are getting for making all our competitors stay at the La Quinta down on Melrose (the one in Vista, not the Heather Locklear one) ... sheesh ... we are rolling in dough man.






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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:30 am

    NBK wrote:why are the scoreboards unusable?
    Short version is that the shidos no longer add up so the scoreboards don't correlate correctly
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:14 pm

    judoratt wrote:
    NBK wrote:why are the scoreboards unusable?

    Short version is that the shidos no longer add up so the scoreboards don't correlate correctly

    Thanks, I guess I was in the mood to whine last night, not to be brief. But the other issues are bugging me.

    That brings up an interesting question ... now that there is no hantei, should the table run the clock UP to count the time in golden score? You know ... so something like "win by ippon at 57 seconds into golden score" can be recorded?
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by genetic judoka on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:15 pm

    so I talked to a ref yesterday about this very question. he had something interesting to say. namely that if an A level ref found out a lower level ref participated in an event with different than normal rules, their refereeing career (career isn't the right term here due to lack of salary but you know what I mean) is over. they won't be invited to meaningful events anymore, so any ref that takes reffing seriously isn't going to be willing to help, and I'd be unwilling to accept the help of one who doesn't know the consequences.

    so yeah, so much for that idea.


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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:27 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:so I talked to a ref yesterday about this very question. he had something interesting to say. namely that if an A level ref found out a lower level ref participated in an event with different than normal rules, their refereeing career (career isn't the right term here due to lack of salary but you know what I mean) is over. they won't be invited to meaningful events anymore, so any ref that takes reffing seriously isn't going to be willing to help, and I'd be unwilling to accept the help of one who doesn't know the consequences.

    so yeah, so much for that idea.

    Maybe ... but plenty of refs around that don't much care about travel, ref grade, etc.
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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:53 pm

    BillC wrote:
    judoratt wrote:
    NBK wrote:why are the scoreboards unusable?

    Short version is that the shidos no longer add up so the scoreboards don't correlate correctly

    Thanks, I guess I was in the mood to whine last night, not to be brief. But the other issues are bugging me.

    That brings up an interesting question ... now that there is no hantei, should the table run the clock UP to count the time in golden score? You know ... so something like "win by ippon at 57 seconds into golden score" can be recorded?

    <My guess would be to turn the clock off for golden score, but what do I know. We also have six of the large score boards that we will look in to geting them reprogrammed, you could also dissable the shidos and score `them seperate at the table. The thing is that the new flat screen TV and scoring programs almost make them obsolete.
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    nomoremondays

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by nomoremondays on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:16 pm

    judoratt wrote:Last year I was the tournament director/co director for (...)two local events.

    judoratt wrote:It's my guess that least 95 percent of the tournaments ran in the US this next year will be run under the new rules.

    So you would at least consider running future local comps under modified, pre 2013 competition rules??

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    genetic judoka

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by genetic judoka on Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:52 pm

    or what might be more feasible, and less troublesome for those involved, would be an "old rules open division" added to a regular shiai. thoughts?


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    finarashi

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by finarashi on Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:19 pm

    No I would not go and neither I know nobody apart from members in this forum who would want to.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:30 pm

    genetic judoka wrote:so I talked to a ref yesterday about this very question. he had something interesting to say. namely that if an A level ref found out a lower level ref participated in an event with different than normal rules, their refereeing career (career isn't the right term here due to lack of salary but you know what I mean) is over. they won't be invited to meaningful events anymore, so any ref that takes reffing seriously isn't going to be willing to help, and I'd be unwilling to accept the help of one who doesn't know the consequences.

    so yeah, so much for that idea.

    Since when has it become the business of referees to check up on the business of other referees outside of a tournament ? Nothing in the IJF Refereeing rules condones this. While I am not challenging that you have indeed been told, nor that this might be how things would proceed in the US and in a number of countries, such depends more on local culture than on appropriateness. There are places where one couldn't care less. Many tournaments in Japan that are not international are not conducted according to IJF rules but according to Kôdôkan rules. Kôdôkan jûdô is about education and making this world into a better place, not about how one can exert most control over the activities of others.


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    finarashi

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by finarashi on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:01 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Since when has it become the business of referees to check up on the business of other referees outside of a tournament ? Nothing in the IJF Refereeing rules condones this. While I am not challenging that you have indeed been told, nor that this might be how things would proceed in the US and in a number of countries, such depends more on local culture than on appropriateness. There are places where one couldn't care less. Many tournaments in Japan that are not international are not conducted according to IJF rules but according to Kôdôkan rules. Kôdôkan jûdô is about education and making this world into a better place, not about how one can exert most control over the activities of others.
    I agree, I know several Judo referees that referee other arts and other types of competitions. I have never heard that they would be sanctioned.

    The basic premise should be that one of the three organizations should sanction competition pre-2009 rules. There are no medical nor injury related issues to rule changes. as stated several times they already sanction more competitions with non-IJF rules than competitions with IJF-rules and for all pre 18-years competitions are done using modified rules.

    Judo is good, Judoka are huma. As humans there are all kinds of us that play power games, follow the ruler obediently excersises and some even play submit or you'll be destrouyed games. Which is a pity.


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    judoratt

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by judoratt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:53 am

    finarashi wrote:No I would not go and neither I know nobody apart from members in this forum who would want to.

    But Finarashi how can my judo continue if I can't grab legs. Laughing Laughing
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:53 am

    The real problem in many places ... and GJ had mentioned this before ... is a tournament at all. Followed closely by the problem of people that never, ever compete.

    This is a huge problem and a topic of its own.

    But my assessment is that a relaxed rule set, a relaxed tournament entirely, could get some of us off our butts and on to a mat across from someone close enough to our size, age, skill.


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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:26 am

    genetic judoka wrote:or what might be more feasible, and less troublesome for those involved, would be an "old rules open division" added to a regular shiai. thoughts?

    these sorts of "novel" divisions or "team" competitions can really make a local/regional tournament a tournament the people want to hit. Eiko Shepherd runs the North/South tournament each year, with a team tournament for those from the North and those from the South.

    World Masters used to run team tournaments with age cut offs and a total age minimum (as opposed to weight minimum/maximum) that was really quite fun.

    There are no-gi divisions at some tourneys, and newaza divisions at other tourneys - always a highlight whether you compete in them or just watch.

    Wise tournament directors create "exhibition" divisions so that everybody gets to fight, even if nobody shows up in your weight/age division. So, I did an "exhibition" with a 14 almost 15 year old who wasn't quite ready for seniors, but nobody showed up near her weight/age. We hashed out rules and went to town - great fun even though I was old enough to be her, uh, well, we won't go there. I've also played young women who've had 100+ lbs on me and were half my age.

    Kata competitions have benefitted by creating new divisions - beginning nage no kata where the competitors do only the first 3 sets and cannot compete in the advanced NNK division, etc.

    In essence, good tournaments, imho, make sure to include as many people as they can, create divisions that can make things a bit of a different challenge for competitors, create interesting competitions that make competitors think a bit different about how to apply judo strategy, etc.

    Freestyle judo is a great concept, but I do think those running exclusively AAU/freestyle tournaments don't give a wit about ref ranking through the NGB or the IJF. While they have enough refs (arguably. arguably, nobody ever has enough refs to run a tournament where the refs aren't exceedingly tired after the tournament, and most have to ref only, not compete), asking a young ref to make a decision that limits his/her ability to gain NGB/IJF ref points/status early in his/her career is unfair.

    At some point, anti-trust may come into play since the "blackballing" of such refs by the establishment isn't above board, but until then...... we have creative shiai directors who add in novel and unique divisions/events/etc to the established shiai format.

    Billc - if you had a really old school koka board, you could just take a pair of scissors to what you no longer need. Then again, I could never read those boards - too far away and my vision just sucked that bad.
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:46 am

    [quote="Stacey"]
    genetic judoka wrote:

    Billc - if you had a really old school koka board, you could just take a pair of scissors to what you no longer need. Then again, I could never read those boards - too far away and my vision just sucked that bad.

    Great idea ... but I will have to be careful about cutting through the circuit boards ... they might smoke a bit when we plug it back in. Razz

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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:52 am

    [quote="BillC"]
    Stacey wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:

    Billc - if you had a really old school koka board, you could just take a pair of scissors to what you no longer need. Then again, I could never read those boards - too far away and my vision just sucked that bad.

    Great idea ... but I will have to be careful about cutting through the circuit boards ... they might smoke a bit when we plug it back in. Razz


    ah, you have one of them new fangled 'lectric boards
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    BillC

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by BillC on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:07 am

    Stacey wrote:
    ah, you have one of them new fangled 'lectric boards

    Yes, I still have a hard time accepting all the consequences of the transistor ... and I work in the industry.

    Stacey, you've seen a lot of crazy stuff already. Everyone must have been real scared when they invented the train!

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    Stacey

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    Re: if you were to find out a tournament in your area was being held under pre 2009 rules...

    Post by Stacey on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:25 am

    BillC wrote:

    Yes, I still have a hard time accepting all the consequences of the transistor ... and I work in the industry.

    Stacey, you've seen a lot of crazy stuff already. Everyone must have been real scared when they invented the train!


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