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    WHat do we want from a judo forum.

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    BillC

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by BillC on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:39 am

    ThePieman wrote:OK, I have moved this discussion to forum discussion. Suspect

    I think this topic could prove a useful tool in trying to chisel away at this chunk of judo granite we have here, and will help us fashion the Venus de milo of a forum that we deserve. Smile

    If I am not mistaken, the Venus de Milo was carved from marble. Maybe this is a better one for some here ...



    "his judo was a failya, 'cuz he had no genitalia."

    heikojr wrote:I think that it is best to start with posters trying to politely tell the "de-railer" that what they are posting is off topic. If this doesn't work let the original thread poster politely tell them. If that is to no avail, let the original thread poster tell one of the mods. Let them handle it how they see fit. Perhaps telling the poster, perhaps eliminating the posts.

    I understand not wanting threads to get de-railed, we've already seen it happen, but at times there are people that think that what they are posting is relevant.

    We all "live" here on this forum together...

    heikojr

    The problem for me with that "other alternate forum" was that it is BORING. As GJ pointed out, judo people by and large tend to have a lively attitude and broad interests. The "stay inside the lines" kind of people tend to be in the minority.

    Some threads deserve to be derailed. If they take off in a different direction, and resist the OP's attempt to bring it back, then what does that say about the topic to begin with? That's a kind of internet democracy.

    Then at the other end, if it's just one troll, or one bad joke, who can't read past a single off-topic post?

    Start with this post ... if at first glance you don't like it then skip past ... go back to whatever it was one wanted to post in the first place.
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    ThePieman

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:27 pm

    As far as I'm aware there hasn't been a single complaint made against an individual poster, considering we're a couple of months in, I'm happy with that! Surprised

    Bill, that sculpture is genuinely terrifying, he would have been even more so complete! affraid

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:05 am

    ThePieman wrote:Also, Dave, I'm not sure if you are joking about there being no trolls on the old forum? affraid

    And we are seriously trying to avoid the mindset of deleting BS posts, rarely is a post strictly BS as seen by everyone and is usually subjective so a certain amount of leeway should be given.


    I meant the Makoto Judo Forum. If there were trolls there I must have missed the posts.
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    genetic judoka

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by genetic judoka on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:21 am

    Makoto was a great forum, it still exists, so I guess it still is a great forum. the thing is, it was so limited in terms of what was allowed that it has been around for like 5 years, and we already have more members here, and almost 1/3 as many posts when we've been around for not even 3 months yet. also, how many posts have been made over there in the past 6 months? that forum is dead.

    now one could argue that on average many of the posts there were of a high(er?) quality than the posts here, and we could have a debate on the merits of quality vs quantity, but the point is that rigidity and a no nonsense attitude is a great way to kill a forum meant to be used by judoka.

    now if you're only looking to be heavily educated by every single post you read, and have no desire to be merely entertained, then maybe books are more up your alley, and forums just aren't for you. and no, that last statement was not directed at anyone in particular.


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    Hanon

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Hanon on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:50 am

    As far as the Makoto forum goes its dead. Dew also started that forum off and it has just never really taken off. A few, a very few, die hards posted there and toward the end it became the 'Mike Hanon' show. I found myself talking to myself.
    BillC wrote the Makoto was "BORING" I understand his point. Most judoka, in fact the vast majority, are involved in judo BECAUSE they like a fight be it verbal or a knock on the tatami. Some even go further and fight in the street or bars etc. Some even use this media to cause others trouble?
    My experience of judoka are they are not really the sort of guys and gals who one would call passive? Some are rather vengeful and a tiny few are downright unbalanced.
    The Makoto is the site I enjoy posting the most. No doubt about it. The rules as quoted earlier here are simple. Judo without the crap. Now one can see by the traffic on the Makoto who in judo really wants that? Facts speak for themselves. The Makoto died long ago.
    Point two: Cyber judo has perhaps seen its day? Most association, federation and club sites have seen a massive drop in interest? I think perhaps forum judo was a phase and its passed?
    Point three; Regarding the spillage from one subject into another thread comes from a forum trying to be all things to all men. I had debate after debate with Judosensei about this on the JF going back years. My point was as long as he had MMA, BJJ and other arts sections he would 'invite' posters from those activities. I never understood this until I realised that the old JF was advertisement dependent and each click on the JF bought in a tiny revenue to pay for the sites upkeep etc. If we removed the non judo threads from the JF the posting and membership there would have been drastically reduced.
    I also practice BJJ so have bad intention to that sport what so ever. I just cannot see why a judo site needs to cater for all such activities. Makes the work of posters like me who try to write on the philosophy and practice of judo a waste of time and ink!
    The idea of a pure judo forum such as the Makoto, that is still up though dead, has proved its not what the majority involved in judo want.
    IF members turn this site into what the Makoto was then the same fate will await this place.
    Lets be honest just how many posters don't enjoy a really good verbal fight even getting to the point of down right rudeness and deliberately causing other judokas trouble? There is a site that I am ashamed to write is there just to do that and its well used. Go figure. I guess it comes down to why write something nice when you can be a pig and get ones jollies by upsetting others? I don't think this site has got that far YET but the writing is already on the wall. There is already several under currents in certain posts where old feelings and scores are yet to be settled if ever. Its VERY SAD to see judo this way but its practiced by a cross section of people some with an understanding of life and others not so warm?
    REMEMBER no one asked to join this forum and its not compulsory we post. We are guests on the site of Carlo and it is for Carlo to set the 'tone' of the place. Its too young to do that so much more time is needed even though I fear what will happen here is we may see the worst of the old JF and not the best? I hope I am wrong as I will not return to post to the Makoto to write to myself though.
    I will post here until it becomes unproductive to do so then I will do what I did with the old JF and the Makoto and just refrain from posting.
    Mike


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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:10 am

    Hanon wrote:As far as the Makoto forum goes its dead. Dew also started that forum off and it has just never really taken off. A few, a very few, die hards posted there and toward the end it became the 'Mike Hanon' show. I found myself talking to myself.
    BillC wrote the Makoto was "BORING" I understand his point. Most judoka, in fact the vast majority, are involved in judo BECAUSE they like a fight be it verbal or a knock on the tatami. Some even go further and fight in the street or bars etc. Some even use this media to cause others trouble?
    My experience of judoka are they are not really the sort of guys and gals who one would call passive? Some are rather vengeful and a tiny few are downright unbalanced.
    The Makoto is the site I enjoy posting the most. No doubt about it. The rules as quoted earlier here are simple. Judo without the crap. Now one can see by the traffic on the Makoto who in judo really wants that? Facts speak for themselves. The Makoto died long ago.
    Point two: Cyber judo has perhaps seen its day? Most association, federation and club sites have seen a massive drop in interest? I think perhaps forum judo was a phase and its passed?
    Point three; Regarding the spillage from one subject into another thread comes from a forum trying to be all things to all men. I had debate after debate with Judosensei about this on the JF going back years. My point was as long as he had MMA, BJJ and other arts sections he would 'invite' posters from those activities. I never understood this until I realised that the old JF was advertisement dependent and each click on the JF bought in a tiny revenue to pay for the sites upkeep etc. If we removed the non judo threads from the JF the posting and membership there would have been drastically reduced.
    I also practice BJJ so have bad intention to that sport what so ever. I just cannot see why a judo site needs to cater for all such activities. Makes the work of posters like me who try to write on the philosophy and practice of judo a waste of time and ink!
    The idea of a pure judo forum such as the Makoto, that is still up though dead, has proved its not what the majority involved in judo want.
    IF members turn this site into what the Makoto was then the same fate will await this place.
    Lets be honest just how many posters don't enjoy a really good verbal fight even getting to the point of down right rudeness and deliberately causing other judokas trouble? There is a site that I am ashamed to write is there just to do that and its well used. Go figure. I guess it comes down to why write something nice when you can be a pig and get ones jollies by upsetting others? I don't think this site has got that far YET but the writing is already on the wall. There is already several under currents in certain posts where old feelings and scores are yet to be settled if ever. Its VERY SAD to see judo this way but its practiced by a cross section of people some with an understanding of life and others not so warm?
    REMEMBER no one asked to join this forum and its not compulsory we post. We are guests on the site of Carlo and it is for Carlo to set the 'tone' of the place. Its too young to do that so much more time is needed even though I fear what will happen here is we may see the worst of the old JF and not the best? I hope I am wrong as I will not return to post to the Makoto to write to myself though.
    I will post here until it becomes unproductive to do so then I will do what I did with the old JF and the Makoto and just refrain from posting.
    Mike



    For what it's worth I enjoyed Makoto very much and appreciated the effort moderators put in that forum to keep it the way it was. Personally, I don't enjoy the verbal sparring on the Judo Forum but I have to admit it was humorous to see some new poster call Cichorei Kano a "douchebag sensei" all those years ago. If I want that I'll just go to a politics board where my skills as a troll can be seen in all its glory. Evil or Very Mad
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:40 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    For what it's worth I enjoyed Makoto very much and appreciated the effort moderators put in that forum to keep it the way it was. Personally, I don't enjoy the verbal sparring on the Judo Forum but I have to admit it was humorous to see some new poster call Cichorei Kano a "douchebag sensei" all those years ago. If I want that I'll just go to a politics board where my skills as a troll can be seen in all its glory. Evil or Very Mad



    Yes, that was funny. I have started collecting douchebags since, and now have a nice collection of them, which I have thought of auctioning off for charity ...

    I've also thought of using the following as a new avatar:



    Seriously though, for many of us a forum was a new experience. It was for me. I, and we had to learn a number of steps. There are things I have learnt from it, things I would do in a different way. I do not have a short fuse, but looking at some of the recent verbal fights, I also understand some of the mechanisms. There have been times in the past that I called someone an 'idiot'. I tend to avoid that now. Not because I think they are not idiots, but because it may not be relevant and because people just like me and others might still be looking for and struggling for the best ways to express themselves, and because I don't have to say everything I think. I mention this because I saw one thread derail where terms such as bullshit were thrown around. I think one of the problems we need to realize is that when I talk to you, it is like having a personal conversation, just like in an E-mail. In reality that is not true though, since our conversations are public and watched by hundreds of people. So when one calls someone names, and unless it is clearly in a humorous context that is perceived that way and accepted by the other party, one may feel as being insulted in front of hundreds of people. That has consequences. People feel like losing face or being humiliated in public, so you get them being defensive and all kind of reactions that likely would never happen if it truly was just a conversation between two people. Imagine this if in real life or as a child or adult have been the subject of bullying or abuse. Add to that all the intercultural differences as well as sometimes thoroughly wrong perceptions about somebody's character, and things easily derail. We have to try run the business ourselves and give moderators as little work as possible, we have to focus on arguments and try to avoid ad hominems or character assassination. A recent thread about self-defense derailed, and that was not necessary. I stayed out of it, but the thread largely derailed on factual errors in argumentation from all side.

    In science when we write or do research, one of the most important things is to consider our limitations and delimitations, but in forum discussions oftentimes the writing starts almost from a point of view that there are no such limitations. In reality, and I have said so many times, the knowledge the judo population has of the whole area of judo honestly is not that good, even in Japan. One may be a great athlete, a champion who can defeat everyone, but that still does not mean one understands anything of judo. Much of the knowledge in the West is built on thoroughly wrong perceptions due to populist books who copied from each other, and through reinvented hagiographies released by the Kodokan. It's a helluva task to do something about it, and it is a helluva task to not step on people's toes, because even if I write this, people may feel offended because it does not require much effort to be offended if one starts from the premise that one has done 40 years of judo but doesn't really know much about some concepts. The only thing one needs to do to feel offended is to hear what you want to hear rather than what is written. I have never suggested that people might not do a tremendous job, and be role models, and give the very best of themselves, but that is without relevance to some of the things I am referring here.

    In any case, I would really urge people when we start pissing each other off to simply step back for a second, or perhaps, even PM the author and ask him or her if he or she would be willing to amend their post pointing out its effect. You may reach a lot more and in a much easier way by honestly and without prejudice explaining why it hurts to be referred at like this or that then to see where you can find nuclear arms as quickly as possible. When we converse with each other we don't always need to be wanting to crack a nut with a sledgehammer; it is something different probably when simply referring to judo technique, but even there it can be tricky since commenting on bad technique, if we do not choose our words carefully may unwillingly still be perceived as referring to people. It can be challenging; I have made mistakes in doing so, still make them now and then, but I try to do better, and as long as we are willing to do our best, improve, amend a post we realize could be rewritten in a better way, it works.

    I would briefly like to share a story without going in details. Many, many years ago, I think somewhere around 1997 or 1998 I participated in my first forum. That was my first experience where I saw people publicly getting mean at each other. One morning, there was post of the wife of one of the posters who posted something which I have never forgotten to this day. The post said that her husband, who we had been talking with, and who had not been treated so nicely by everyone had committed suicide.

    One can argue that the person may not have been completely mentally stable. Very well. We don't know, we can't know, and most of us are psychiatrists or psychologist. However, let's try and look at this from another angle than just coming up with reasons why we should not feel guilty. The point here is ... a human life was lost. A person who is or was somebody's husband, somebody's brother, somebody's son, maybe somebody's father (that I can't remember) no longer was. That person was valuable certainly to those who loved and knew him in real life. No matter how little our role in that, no matter how insignificant, is this what the purpose was or was this an acceptable affect of our behavior ? If so, then what on earth are we doing and have we started considering as normal or acceptable. Not everyone has an elephant skin even though it may look online like they have. I am not suggesting that one should be walking on eggs all the time, but there have now been stories in the news enough with devastating effects in the terms of people suiciding themselves as a consequences of online bullying. Therefore, one thing I would like to suggest that perhaps people individually reflect about this for a second before they decide to go nuclear online just because they don't agree with a view or aren't terribly impressed with the online character which they think the person is. Also, please consider to simply PM the person and politely ask to tone it down a bit if they please.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total


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    jkw

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by jkw on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:58 am

    Hanon wrote:As far as the Makoto forum goes its dead.

    I think part of the reason Makoto forum never took off was that judoforum was still functioning quite well at the time, with significant and informative posts/threads occurring regularly. That situation has now changed. For me, I would be happy for all the non-judo sub-forums (other martial arts etc...) to be removed.
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    BillC

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:34 am

    Hanon wrote: Some are rather vengeful and a tiny few are downright unbalanced.

    A few? I think we're all Bozos on this bus.

    Hanon wrote:REMEMBER no one asked to join this forum and its not compulsory we post. We are guests on the site of Carlo and it is for Carlo to set the 'tone' of the place.

    Good point.

    Your best post in years. Thanks. Keep it up!
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    Blacksmith

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Blacksmith on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:53 am

    jkw wrote:
    Hanon wrote:As far as the Makoto forum goes its dead.

    I think part of the reason Makoto forum never took off was that judoforum was still functioning quite well at the time, with significant and informative posts/threads occurring regularly. That situation has now changed. For me, I would be happy for all the non-judo sub-forums (other martial arts etc...) to be removed.

    It is of course unrealistic for a forum or dojo to be all things to all people. For better or worse (and understand that I appreciate the work that has gone into establishing this forum) - THIS is the forum/dojo that we have. Like in a brick and mortar dojo, you always have the right to decline a partner you feel unsafe with.

    That said, I've always believed that randori with a greater number of partners of varying sizes, abilities styles was better than randori with the same few partners week in and week out.
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    ThePieman

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by ThePieman on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:10 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    ThePieman wrote:Also, Dave, I'm not sure if you are joking about there being no trolls on the old forum? affraid

    And we are seriously trying to avoid the mindset of deleting BS posts, rarely is a post strictly BS as seen by everyone and is usually subjective so a certain amount of leeway should be given.




    I meant the Makoto Judo Forum. If there were trolls there I must have missed the posts.

    Ah, sorry Dave misunderstood. You are right, no trolls on Makoto.

    But JF?!! geek jocolor elephant flower farao rendeer rendeer albino cherry
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    ThePieman

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by ThePieman on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:11 am

    Superb post CK! Cool

    Jon Z

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Jon Z on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:52 am

    Hi –

    This is my first post on the new forum and my first post for some time after taking a break from the old forum. I’m very impressed at how this new forum has come about so quickly and the tenor of discussions. It reminds me of when I first joined the old forum 4.5 years ago.

    I’d like to give my two cents to this discussion and I’m sorry for the length of the post but… I had a lot to get off my chest.

    It seems to me there are broadly two approaches being advocated and I’m actually in sympathy with both of them though they are actually mutually exclusive in some ways. The first, advocated by Sodo is for a more active role of moderators; the second, by Bill C is for a less active role (or to keep it less active as it is now). I can see the appeal of both of these views just based on my own experience at JudoForum. Though these are just my own experiences and may not have been shared by others, let me explain.

    When I finally stopped posting on the old forum it was because I felt that the intervention of the moderators/admins had become capricious and unfair. This alone probably would not have driven me away but I had already been turned off by other experiences and it was sort of the last straw to feel like the very structure of the forum had slipped out of balance. I do not blame the admins for this. I had a cordial exchange with Gaijin Judoka and I understand they were in an impossible position with which I can sympathize but it was really because the problem was systemic and therefore could not be fixed that I realized there was really no hope for the forum as far as I was concerned. This was before the whole Ezoic debacle that would follow. So I’m wary of an activist policy of intervening on the part of the moderators because ultimately there is really a question of from where does one derive their authority to decide something is or is not relevant etc. Sure, the authority derives from the fact that certain people have stepped up and volunteered their time and effort and they certainly deserve respect and gratitude but… still at a certain point there will always come a time where one thinks ‘who is this person to decide what is or is not acceptable’ esp. if it’s not a question of contravening any written policies.

    Here we come to a recurring problem, one that flares from time to time and that I don’t want to get derailed on but that needs to be flagged. There are only two kinds of authority that make sense in this environment. The most obvious is an appeal to extra forum reality: I am x or I hold the rank y or I trained with z or I’ve been doing judo q number of years. But… and this is a big but … this cannot really work in an anonymous or pseudonymous environment, though curiously it is often those who insist on anonymity who often make recourse to such status. I’m not suggesting that we move away from anonymity (again I don’t want to derail this and anyone who wants to debate this again should open a new thread) what I want to point out is that anonymity cannot co-exist with appeals to external authority. Period.

    Which brings me to the second kind of authority which is authority accrued entirely within the fictional world of the forum. I say entirely but it was never really entirely because people know each other in real life, people vouch for each other etc. But for many of us, whatever authority we have comes out of the posts we write and it is earned rather slowly. It has to be gradual and it is always ongoing because new people will come on who know nothing of or refuse to acknowledge that authority so it needs to be earned again. Which, I believe, is at the root of Sodo’s frustrations.

    In general, I’ve followed the advice that Bill C gave which is to just ignore people you disagree with and skip their posts. But… I have never done this in the history forum. And the reason – which I said explicitly on a number of occasions on the old forum – was that I feel the forum is a public record, really the public record on judo in the English speaking world, and as such misinformation and mistakes should be corrected. For me this was true of the history forum but for others it’s true of technique or health and fitness or whatever. So I can completely understand the attitude of Sodo that it’s not enough to just let people spout nonsense and to ignore them. But I think the best way to approach this is through the internal mechanisms of the forum itself rather than appeals to external authority. Here’s an example from the old forum of a time when I think this worked rather well:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:199RueGn_hQJ:judoforum.com/index.php%3F/topic/38279-kiyose-nakae-a-master-of-kito-ryu-jj/page__st__8+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_en%7Clang_ja

    There are several caveats. One, this was not completely free of appeals to external authority (on my part) and I’ve never made much of an attempt to be anonymous – anyone who cared enough to know who I was could figure it out rather easily. And two, this was perhaps an extreme example, where the poster made it easy by providing enough rope to hang himself. But there were many similar instances to this where this system worked essentially as it should. Maybe it’s easier to do this in history than in other fields but I think people like Sodo and Ben Reinhart in Technique or Gant in Fitness have all done a good job of this in other fields. Obviously I don’t have first hand experience in those fields so maybe it’s different but I would be interested to hear.

    People have been bringing up the Makoto Forum. I hesitate to comment because I spent very little time on the forum and was never a member or poster and because I do not want to needlessly open old wounds. But my own sense is that it ran its course not because it was boring or at least if it was boring that was actually epiphenomenal. The real reason is that it was ideological (in the strict sense of the term) – maybe that made it boring, I’m not sure. But if everything is decided upon ahead of time, and if belief is immutable and impervious to evidence or reason as some people have explicitly said, then there cannot really be much of a discussion. You agree, in which case you are happy but perhaps not active on the forum or you disagree in which case you never bother to join. There is, I admit, a flaw in my logic here, which is that I’m sure there are many, many forums all over the political spectrum that are ideological (or epistemically closed to use a term that’s much bandied about in the US political press these days) that are hugely active. If I had to guess why these remain active while other ideologically based fora don’t it would be because there are real life issues at stake and discussion can move toward action.

    This may seem like a needless meander into territory I should have stayed away from but I raised it to make an important point – I think one of the values of the current forum is that it is non-ideological. And that it should remain so. This is not just a question of agreeing or disagreeing with the specific ideology, after all some of the great exponents of the Makoto Forum’s ideology have called it boring. It’s about preserving the forum as a place in which different ideas can be debated and thought through without an assumption that we all really know the right answer ahead of time. This is not to say there is no right answer or its unknowable or that everyone’s opinion is equal. I hope the thread I linked to above shows that is not at all what I mean. But if we take the attitude that we all really know what Kōdōkan Jūdō is or what Kanō wanted or meant or whatever then the forum is f*cked. Because that’s at base a lie. Kanō thoughts were complex and changed over time and are contradictory in many ways. And to the extent we still want to talk about him and try to tie current practice back to him (and I’m not even sure that’s useful) then we have to acknowledge that the ambiguities we find in judo are actually the legacies of Kanō own ambivalences.

    To get back to the topic at hand, I don’t know what the right answer is. I think it is probably that it is a question of poster’s themselves relentlessly pushing back against things they see as wrong and believing that at the end of the day what will come out of this “crowd-sourced” approach will be as close as we can come to a useful record. But this requires enormous time and effort and patience on the part of posters and I’m the first to admit that I’m not sure if I myself have that anymore.

    Anyway, the shape of the forum right now is certainly promising, its feels more fun and lively than JF has in years.

    So I keep my fingers crossed. And thank you to all of you who have put in the hard work to get this going.
    Jon Z
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    BillC

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by BillC on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:16 am

    Jon Z wrote:Hi –

    This is my first post on the new forum and my first post for some time after taking a break from the old forum.

    ...

    When I finally stopped posting on the old forum it was because I felt that the intervention of the moderators/admins had become capricious and unfair.

    ...

    And the reason – which I said explicitly on a number of occasions on the old forum – was that I feel the forum is a public record, really the public record on judo in the English speaking world, and as such misinformation and mistakes should be corrected. ... I think it is probably that it is a question of poster’s themselves relentlessly pushing back against things they see as wrong and believing that at the end of the day what will come out of this “crowd-sourced” approach will be as close as we can come to a useful record. But this requires enormous time and effort and patience on the part of posters and I’m the first to admit that I’m not sure if I myself have that anymore.



    Jon ZZZZZZZ ... Sleep actually, no, your posts are rarely boring. Information dense, yes, but not boring. I do hope you keep posting.

    Sorry for the heavy edit of your post, just trying to reference the points to which I'd like to respond.

    First of all, personally your posts have the smell of authenticity. You cite your references and other things good researchers do. More than that you've never tied on a candy belt to defend a point questioned by another poster. And I have never heard of anyone catching you in an outright fabrication. So I tend to find them credible to the extent that I'd chase down other information about your posts if I had the time, inclination and capability. I put you in the "probably good information" pile in my head.

    I would not have sweated or worried about the Bujinkan exchange to the extent you did. As I wrote at the time, and as Hanon made mention of earlier today, some posts need to have a theremin playing as background music. If you are old enough to know what a theremin is and why I use that metaphor then I respect you even more.

    Maybe to save you time, this forum needs a steaming meadow muffin smiley, one fresh from the "oven." Something you can use when you don't have time, or when words fail you.



    As for this forum being a historical record ... is the child of Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger an historical record?



    'Nuff said about that.

    Finally ... without "outing" a friend (just a friend!) ... I will note that someone I know who is equally credible for the same reasons .... though perhaps a bit more high strung ... withdrew from this forum because someone changed the title of the topic he posted among other otherwise innocent stepping of the toes. So to your point of moderators, I think it is important to realize that some people ... and I am one of them ... really do not like what they wrote to be changed or eliminated ... even with, or certainly without, advance consultation. Not a matter of history, but a matter of courtesy in keeping what people want to say whole and intact. Naughty filters people understand, censorship they donna rike.
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    Creamy creamy baileys

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Creamy creamy baileys on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:01 am

    Doesn't it occur to anyone that basically what we have here is the old JF before Ezoic, (down to the mods in some cases?). Iow the same posters and personalities etc. 

    Part of me thinks that's a very good thing but another part wonders if it isn't a case of same shit, different shovel.

    What's  to stop this forum going tits up like the last one? Remember, intrusive ads and forum software disfunctionality weren't the only problems with the old JF.

    Notice that most people have transplanted their old JF username to here. What does that say about having a fresh start?
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    finarashi

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by finarashi on Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:06 pm

    I like it here


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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Hanon on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:00 pm

    Dave R. wrote:
    Hanon wrote:As far as the Makoto forum goes its dead. Dew also started that forum off and it has just never really taken off. A few, a very few, die hards posted there and toward the end it became the 'Mike Hanon' show. I found myself talking to myself.
    BillC wrote the Makoto was "BORING" I understand his point. Most judoka, in fact the vast majority, are involved in judo BECAUSE they like a fight be it verbal or a knock on the tatami. Some even go further and fight in the street or bars etc. Some even use this media to cause others trouble?
    My experience of judoka are they are not really the sort of guys and gals who one would call passive? Some are rather vengeful and a tiny few are downright unbalanced.
    The Makoto is the site I enjoy posting the most. No doubt about it. The rules as quoted earlier here are simple. Judo without the crap. Now one can see by the traffic on the Makoto who in judo really wants that? Facts speak for themselves. The Makoto died long ago.
    Point two: Cyber judo has perhaps seen its day? Most association, federation and club sites have seen a massive drop in interest? I think perhaps forum judo was a phase and its passed?
    Point three; Regarding the spillage from one subject into another thread comes from a forum trying to be all things to all men. I had debate after debate with Judosensei about this on the JF going back years. My point was as long as he had MMA, BJJ and other arts sections he would 'invite' posters from those activities. I never understood this until I realised that the old JF was advertisement dependent and each click on the JF bought in a tiny revenue to pay for the sites upkeep etc. If we removed the non judo threads from the JF the posting and membership there would have been drastically reduced.
    I also practice BJJ so have bad intention to that sport what so ever. I just cannot see why a judo site needs to cater for all such activities. Makes the work of posters like me who try to write on the philosophy and practice of judo a waste of time and ink!
    The idea of a pure judo forum such as the Makoto, that is still up though dead, has proved its not what the majority involved in judo want.
    IF members turn this site into what the Makoto was then the same fate will await this place.
    Lets be honest just how many posters don't enjoy a really good verbal fight even getting to the point of down right rudeness and deliberately causing other judokas trouble? There is a site that I am ashamed to write is there just to do that and its well used. Go figure. I guess it comes down to why write something nice when you can be a pig and get ones jollies by upsetting others? I don't think this site has got that far YET but the writing is already on the wall. There is already several under currents in certain posts where old feelings and scores are yet to be settled if ever. Its VERY SAD to see judo this way but its practiced by a cross section of people some with an understanding of life and others not so warm?
    REMEMBER no one asked to join this forum and its not compulsory we post. We are guests on the site of Carlo and it is for Carlo to set the 'tone' of the place. Its too young to do that so much more time is needed even though I fear what will happen here is we may see the worst of the old JF and not the best? I hope I am wrong as I will not return to post to the Makoto to write to myself though.
    I will post here until it becomes unproductive to do so then I will do what I did with the old JF and the Makoto and just refrain from posting.
    Mike



    For what it's worth I enjoyed Makoto very much and appreciated the effort moderators put in that forum to keep it the way it was. Personally, I don't enjoy the verbal sparring on the Judo Forum but I have to admit it was humorous to see some new poster call Cichorei Kano a "douchebag sensei" all those years ago. If I want that I'll just go to a politics board where my skills as a troll can be seen in all its glory. Evil or Very Mad


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    ThePieman

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by ThePieman on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:12 am

    Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Doesn't it occur to anyone that basically what we have here is the old JF before Ezoic, (down to the mods in some cases?). Iow the same posters and personalities etc. 

    Part of me thinks that's a very good thing but another part wonders if it isn't a case of same shit, different shovel.

    What's  to stop this forum going tits up like the last one? Remember, intrusive ads and forum software disfunctionality weren't the only problems with the old JF.

    Notice that most people have transplanted their old JF username to here. What does that say about having a fresh start?

    Not everyone needs a fresh start though, most of the members who are posting here behaved themselves and made important contributions to the community so I think in that instance the member should keep their username. However, the opportunity is there for other members who would like to start a fresh to do so.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Guest on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:50 am

    ThePieman wrote: However, the opportunity is there for other members who would like to start a fresh to do so.

    That being said, I wonder if TeddyRoosevelt and Judo4All are here under a different name. I liked Judo4All. TeddyRoosevelt cracked me up. Who were some of the other "characters" on the old Forum?

    Paging Tim Neal....
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    sodo

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by sodo on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:08 am

    Not everyone needs a fresh start though, most of the members who are posting here behaved themselves and made important contributions to the community so I think in that instance the member should keep their username. However, the opportunity is there for other members who would like to start a fresh to do so.

    I tried! bounce


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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by sodo on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:16 am

    Refering to JonZ's post, when I started this thread I did not really know what I wanted, IU just new what I did not want but it is not my place to stipilate where this forum should be going, scratch

    I am not really in favour of too much moderating more like moderating in moderation silent

    I think it would be good if the members sort of self control, f.e. on the Ne Waza threa, I know alot of people do not like my methods but in that case it worked,sort off but I do not want to get myself banned Rolling Eyes

    I really like Bill's idea of a BS smiley cheers alien bounce


    atb

    sodo


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    ThePieman

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by ThePieman on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:23 am

    sodo wrote:
    Not everyone needs a fresh start though, most of the members who are posting here behaved themselves and made important contributions to the community so I think in that instance the member should keep their username. However, the opportunity is there for other members who would like to start a fresh to do so.

    I tried! bounce

    Nah, you just cross dressed for a while. Razz

    Seriously though, do you think if you, Hanon, CK or BillC changed their username that we wouldn't cotton on after 2 posts? Rolling Eyes


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    ThePieman

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by ThePieman on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:30 am

    sodo wrote:Refering to JonZ's post, when I started this thread I did not really know what I wanted, IU just new what I did not want but it is not my place to stipilate where this forum should be going, scratch

    I am not really in favour of too much moderating more like moderating in moderation silent

    I think it would be good if the members sort of self control, f.e. on the Ne Waza threa, I know alot of people do not like my methods but in that case it worked,sort off but I do not want to get myself banned Rolling Eyes

    I really like Bill's idea of a BS smiley cheers alien bounce


    atb

    sodo

    Personally, I'm glad that you started this thread.

    This forum is different in that it belongs to its members, Dew gave it to us.

    I agree that the more we police ourselves the better, there are mods with powers so we will never be abused, but to self police will be good practice in tolerance and discipline for all of us.

    We can put this thread of yours to good use to discuss any issues that should arise in the future and come up with resolutions together.

    monkey


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    Hanon

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Hanon on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:33 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    ThePieman wrote: However, the opportunity is there for other members who would like to start a fresh to do so.

    That being said, I wonder if TeddyRoosevelt and Judo4All are here under a different name. I liked Judo4All. TeddyRoosevelt cracked me up. Who were some of the other "characters" on the old Forum?

    Paging Tim Neal....
    Judo4all was a dedicated judoka who practiced judo under the supervision of a great sensei. When he joined the old JF he was a basic kyu grade and as the years passed he went to dan rank. J4A was passionate about judo. With respect to him he allowed himself the luxury of involving judo with petty politics or even world politics and that is where he came unstuck. IF J4A had kept his posting to judo he would have been a very valuable member of any judo forum.
    Tim Neal kept himself to the misc' section so don't know anything about him other than that.
    Not sure the value of naming names and debating such things that are so far in the past. I would have thought it much more productive to write on the present day situation of judo?
    Maybe its human nature to sort out the old before embracing the new? I was hoping we could just start a fresh here.
    Mike


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    Hanon

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    Re: WHat do we want from a judo forum.

    Post by Hanon on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:35 am

    ThePieman wrote:
    sodo wrote:Refering to JonZ's post, when I started this thread I did not really know what I wanted, IU just new what I did not want but it is not my place to stipilate where this forum should be going, scratch

    I am not really in favour of too much moderating more like moderating in moderation silent

    I think it would be good if the members sort of self control, f.e. on the Ne Waza threa, I know alot of people do not like my methods but in that case it worked,sort off but I do not want to get myself banned Rolling Eyes

    I really like Bill's idea of a BS smiley cheers alien bounce


    atb

    sodo

    Personally, I'm glad that you started this thread.

    This forum is different in that it belongs to its members, Dew gave it to us.

    I agree that the more we police ourselves the better, there are mods with powers so we will never be abused, but to self police will be good practice in tolerance and discipline for all of us.

    We can put this thread of yours to good use to discuss any issues that should arise in the future and come up with resolutions together.

    monkey

    I like and appreciate your mature adult attitude. Thank you and thank you for taking the responsibility of this forum so we may all enjoy each others posts.
    Mike


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