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    Okazi

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    O Goshi

    Post by Okazi on Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:11 am

    When does one straighten their legs in O Goshi (please assume that their heels are already off the mat)?

    a) Is it after they begin to travel around the hip? So in essence we lift only that which is left to be lifted (their hips and legs).

    or

    b) Do you straighten your legs first and then rotate?

    I'm leaning more towards a), any thoughts? I hope there isn't a c)...


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    wdax

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by wdax on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:59 pm

    It depends on the degree of kuzushi.

    To throw Uke with techniques like O-goshi, it is necessary to overcome the friction between his feet and the tatami. Remember: Uke's feet swing back and up, when he is thrown. If Uke leans far forward, the direction of his feet is more upwards, so there is no need for any other action to reduce the friction. If Uke in contrary is almost upright and in balance, the feet would travel relative horizontally backwards against the resistance of the friction feet-tatami.

    In the first case Uke is more or less rolling over Tori's hip and the straightening of the legs is just for accelerating Uke in the final phase of the throw and not for lifting him up.. In the second case, the straightening of the legs is necessary to reduce the friction feet-tatami by lifting him a little bit before he travels around Tori's hips.

    In real situations it's not possible to always create the ideal amount of kuzushi, so the first case is the ideal form, but not always possible. Additionally it depends on Tori's hip position, which must be well under Uke's COG.


    It all can be studied best in Ju-no-Kata.

    sodo

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by sodo on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:36 pm

    wdax wrote:It depends on the degree of kuzushi.

    To throw Uke with techniques like O-goshi, it is necessary to overcome the friction between his feet and the tatami. Remember: Uke's feet swing back and up, when he is thrown. If Uke leans far forward, the direction of his feet is more upwards, so there is no need for any other action to reduce the friction. If Uke in contrary is almost upright and in balance, the feet would travel relative horizontally backwards against the resistance of the friction feet-tatami.

    In the first case Uke is more or less rolling over Tori's hip and the straightening of the legs is just for accelerating Uke in the final phase of the throw and not for lifting him up.. In the second case, the straightening of the legs is necessary to reduce the friction feet-tatami by lifting him a little bit before he travels around Tori's hips.

    In real situations it's not possible to always create the ideal amount of kuzushi, so the first case is the ideal form, but not always possible. Additionally it depends on Tori's hip position, which must be well under Uke's COG.


    It all can be studied best in Ju-no-Kata.



    wot e sed Very Happy

    atb

    sodo


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    BillC

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by BillC on Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:41 am

    Ever want to mess up a man's golf game, ask him if he breathes in or out on the upswing, preferably about 15 seconds before he tees off.

    Same applies here I think ... if you gotta think about it at the time ... you're hosed.

    My advice ... not taking anything away from the previous respondents ... is to think about bigger things, bigger movements ... just throw him ... with this sole emphasis in your mind on throw from the moment it occurs to you to do so.

    ccwscott

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by ccwscott on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:50 am

    c) don't straighten the legs

    I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs, and if you really need to drive your hips threw them some kind of ukigosh/uchimata would probably be better. For ogoshi I really feel like you are fighting yourself if you do the booty bump.

    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:14 am

    Okazi wrote:When does one straighten their legs in O Goshi (please assume that their heels are already off the mat)?

    a) Is it after they begin to travel around the hip? So in essence we lift only that which is left to be lifted (their hips and legs).

    or

    b) Do you straighten your legs first and then rotate?

    I'm leaning more towards a), any thoughts? I hope there isn't a c)...

    I wonder how a poster feels when he asks a question and receives as many different views as there are answers ?

    The questions you are asking do not 'represent' the principle of ô-goshi but are approaches, tips on different ways to maximize its effect. In consequences, you can do either but the success of either way will depend on the the whole situation of tsukuri and kuzushi and other situational factors.

    You many not find my answer very helpful in practical terms, but if you stay with me for a second it may improve your overall understanding of the situation. From a physics point of view ô-goshi is a lever throw. Because of that none of what you describe really is the essence. The only essence is that biomechanically in order to apply a lever throw, it is necessary to momentarily stop the action, no matter how minimal this stopping may be as a function of time, but the stopping action is necessary. The lever action can only be applied during this stopping action. Even if you are very dynamically and moving all the time, even then there is a stopping action, even if it does not exceed just a fraction of a second. That is the first point. The second point is the lever. In ô-goshi that lever is created by your hip. Those are the two only actions that matter in term of the physics. There is nothing else.

    Now, from a technical-pedagogical point of view, NOT from a physics view, a throw is categorized as ô-goshi when in order to achieve that lever, the opponent is loaded on the hip, with your arm serving as the main effector to make your opponent stick to that hip. That is it.

    What you describe, as I have already indicated, are 'ways' that may help the effectiveness or realizing the above in different situations. For example, you mention 'rotating'. But rotating is not 'necessary'. That does not mean it is senseless or not effective, or wouldn't contribute to stylistic qualities, but it is not essential. Because of that reason there is no "it is" or "it should". In fact, I would go even a step further and argue that what you ask is only secondary to your preparation and debana. If your tsukuri and debana make sense, and you understand the principle, then you should not be lying awake of that what you ask.

    I did, however, not say or suggest that your question also does not make sense. No, but your question is of a didactical character rather than of a physics character. What does this mean ? In jûdô, didactics and physics are not at all the same. Didactics are there only to explain things to people and make them learn, but ... that does not mean at all that what is said or taught during a didactical approach is true at all. In jûdô, for example, throws are divided into 'didactical' categories such as te-waza, koshi-waza, ashi-waza, etc. These divisions are 'didactic', but in reality, from a physics point of view, they are often nonsensical and not true. That does not deny that they have no useful purpose. Things which are not true can still have a didactic purpose and achieve an effect of truth. We do that all the time when we use metaphors to teach things to people. The figure of the metaphor probably is completely untrue in judo, but often achieves its didactic effect in increasing someone's comprehension.

    From a didactic point of view, the method of Kôdôkan jûdô traditional is based on three phases: tsukuri, kuzushi and kake. Scientifically, this is not correct an no such three separate phases scientifically exist. But that does not matter too much, since the introduction of those phases by Kanô was ever meant as scientific truth, but only as ... educational tool. This should be no surprise since Kanô was not a scientist and there are many other things which Kanô did or suggested that are scientifically nonsense, but pedagogically effective and help people achieve their goal of mastering something

    Back to the didactics. It is thus possible to offer a different didactic approach than Kanô and such didactic approach may be either closer or further removed from scientific accuracy. Whether this as a characterization of didactic quality is important is a different discussion, but anyhow. Didactically, I disagree with Kanô, and I argue that there are in fact not three but seven phases (didactically). Sometimes, as you know it is possible to effect a judo throw while skipping a phase, but didactically it is not wise to skip a phase in order to teach the principle. In my view of the didactic approach of a jûdô throw, the issues you raise in your question deal with the connection of the Kakeru and Nageru phase. The two are didactically not the same, and in performing your throw, you can move where one starts and one ends depending on your chosen approach to the technique, but also depending on how and to what extent you realize the preceding phases.


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    ThePieman

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by ThePieman on Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:42 pm

    I would be very interested to hear your theory of seven phases over kano's three. Neutral


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    Okazi

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Okazi on Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:55 pm

    Went to judo after work today and started playing around with O Goshi. I didn't really straighten my legs until well after kake. So that was very much in line with what you were saying Herr Wdax. It felt very smooth and clean.

    BillC, the details are important but putting it all together and trying to make it happen is more so. Big things and big movements make for some big throws.

    Booty bump lol I was trying to eradicate that particular movement from someone's seoinage tonight....

    You all have been very helpful, thank you.

    My camera's battery is charging...I'll film myself doing this technique and a couple others hopefully this Saturday and then think long and hard about posting the "footage".

    So Sunday or Monday we can take apart my Judo and destroy my will to learn, train and teach.



    CK could the seven be:

    1. Debana
    2. Kuzushi
    3. Tsukuri
    4. Kake
    5. Control
    6. Zanshin
    7. last but not least ah, Omyo


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:25 am

    Okazi wrote:Went to judo after work today and started playing around with O Goshi. I didn't really straighten my legs until well after kake. So that was very much in line with what you were saying Herr Wdax. It felt very smooth and clean.

    BillC, the details are important but putting it all together and trying to make it happen is more so. Big things and big movements make for some big throws.

    Booty bump lol I was trying to eradicate that particular movement from someone's seoinage tonight....

    You all have been very helpful, thank you.

    My camera's battery is charging...I'll film myself doing this technique and a couple others hopefully this Saturday and then think long and hard about posting the "footage".

    So Sunday or Monday we can take apart my Judo and destroy my will to learn, train and teach.



    CK could the seven be:

    1. Debana
    2. Kuzushi
    3. Tsukuri
    4. Kake
    5. Control
    6. Zanshin
    7. last but not least ah, Omyo

    Close. Ômyô is not a phase but reflects the supreme skill at which one is able to apply these phases. Control isn't a phase either, but reflects accuracy with which mechanical phases are applied.

    The two other levels are kumu or gripping and nageru. Kake as usually used in the didactics of Kôdôkan encompasses nageru, but really didactically it are separate phases.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:38 am

    ThePieman wrote:I would be very interested to hear your theory of seven phases over kano's three. Neutral

    Please, do not misunderstand what I said. I am only talking about 'didactics', thus ways to transfer a skill, ways of teaching. This has no bearing on the actual technique itself. In other words, I am not touching Kanô's jûdô only the didactical approach to transfer the skill of Kôdôkan jûdô. I also want to add that this is by no means unique. Many others have offered alternative didactical approaches some with more, some with less success. Among the most well known such approaches are those of Geesink, those of Gleeson, those of Hirano, etc. These alternative didactical approaches do not necessarily change the number of phases, but may offer an alternative for something else that is important in transferring skills. For example, Geesink proposed an entirely different organization of throwing techniques. Hirano though also offered an alternative to Kanô's classical three-part division of throwing techniques. His didactic approach, for example, contained kumu as a phase and changed the order of Kanô's suggested approach.

    Alternative didactical approached are very worthwhile studying. Many instructors locally in their club will also apply some of their personal didactical approaches which they feel work well with certain age groups or techniques, but usually without going so far as to globally reorganize an entire building block of how something is didactically set within the Kôdôkan syllabus.

    Such alternatives are useful in order to try and facility the learning experience, which remains hard and difficult for judo. This is so both for newaza and tachi-waza. BJJ, for example, offers a different didactical approach for newaza, of which many techniques may exist in Kôdôkan. There, as far as I have an understanding of BJJ (which by my own admission is limited) part of the different didactics involve assigning many more names, some rather exotic or eponyms to techniques, and more emphasis on positions such as guard/half-guard as a core idea of newaza, whereas in Kôdôkan, the didactics of newaza focus far more on the katame-waza part, whereas the rest obviously exists but without much didactical methodology having been provided by Kanô. It is just there ...


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    afulldeck

    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:10 am

    [quote="Cichorei Kano"]
    Okazi wrote:
    You many not find my answer very helpful in practical terms, but if you stay with me for a second it may improve your overall understanding of the situation. From a physics point of view ô-goshi is a lever throw. Because of that none of what you describe really is the essence. The only essence is that biomechanically in order to apply a lever throw, it is necessary to momentarily stop the action, no matter how minimal this stopping may be as a function of time, but the stopping action is necessary. The lever action can only be applied during this stopping action. Even if you are very dynamically and moving all the time, even then there is a stopping action, even if it does not exceed just a fraction of a second. That is the first point. The second point is the lever. In ô-goshi that lever is created by your hip. Those are the two only actions that matter in term of the physics. There is nothing else.

    Hang on, you lost me. I would agree whole heartedly that O-goshi in its creation to fruition is a lever throw. However, isn't the hip the fulcrum or pivot point? And the true lever (crowbar) the upper body grap?


    Okazi

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Okazi on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:54 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Okazi wrote:When does one straighten their legs in O Goshi (please assume that their heels are already off the mat)?

    a) Is it after they begin to travel around the hip? So in essence we lift only that which is left to be lifted (their hips and legs).

    or

    b) Do you straighten your legs first and then rotate?

    I'm leaning more towards a), any thoughts? I hope there isn't a c)...

    I wonder how a poster feels when he asks a question and receives as many different views as there are answers ?

    The questions you are asking do not 'represent' the principle of ô-goshi but are approaches, tips on different ways to maximize its effect. In consequences, you can do either but the success of either way will depend on the the whole situation of tsukuri and kuzushi and other situational factors.

    You many not find my answer very helpful in practical terms, but if you stay with me for a second it may improve your overall understanding of the situation. From a physics point of view ô-goshi is a lever throw. Because of that none of what you describe really is the essence. The only essence is that biomechanically in order to apply a lever throw, it is necessary to momentarily stop the action, no matter how minimal this stopping may be as a function of time, but the stopping action is necessary. The lever action can only be applied during this stopping action. Even if you are very dynamically and moving all the time, even then there is a stopping action, even if it does not exceed just a fraction of a second. That is the first point. The second point is the lever. In ô-goshi that lever is created by your hip. Those are the two only actions that matter in term of the physics. There is nothing else.

    Now, from a technical-pedagogical point of view, NOT from a physics view, a throw is categorized as ô-goshi when in order to achieve that lever, the opponent is loaded on the hip, with your arm serving as the main effector to make your opponent stick to that hip. That is it.

    What you describe, as I have already indicated, are 'ways' that may help the effectiveness or realizing the above in different situations. For example, you mention 'rotating'. But rotating is not 'necessary'. That does not mean it is senseless or not effective, or wouldn't contribute to stylistic qualities, but it is not essential. Because of that reason there is no "it is" or "it should". In fact, I would go even a step further and argue that what you ask is only secondary to your preparation and debana. If your tsukuri and debana make sense, and you understand the principle, then you should not be lying awake of that what you ask.

    I did, however, not say or suggest that your question also does not make sense. No, but your question is of a didactical character rather than of a physics character. What does this mean ? In jûdô, didactics and physics are not at all the same. Didactics are there only to explain things to people and make them learn, but ... that does not mean at all that what is said or taught during a didactical approach is true at all. In jûdô, for example, throws are divided into 'didactical' categories such as te-waza, koshi-waza, ashi-waza, etc. These divisions are 'didactic', but in reality, from a physics point of view, they are often nonsensical and not true. That does not deny that they have no useful purpose. Things which are not true can still have a didactic purpose and achieve an effect of truth. We do that all the time when we use metaphors to teach things to people. The figure of the metaphor probably is completely untrue in judo, but often achieves its didactic effect in increasing someone's comprehension.

    From a didactic point of view, the method of Kôdôkan jûdô traditional is based on three phases: tsukuri, kuzushi and kake. Scientifically, this is not correct an no such three separate phases scientifically exist. But that does not matter too much, since the introduction of those phases by Kanô was ever meant as scientific truth, but only as ... educational tool. This should be no surprise since Kanô was not a scientist and there are many other things which Kanô did or suggested that are scientifically nonsense, but pedagogically effective and help people achieve their goal of mastering something

    Back to the didactics. It is thus possible to offer a different didactic approach than Kanô and such didactic approach may be either closer or further removed from scientific accuracy. Whether this as a characterization of didactic quality is important is a different discussion, but anyhow. Didactically, I disagree with Kanô, and I argue that there are in fact not three but seven phases (didactically). Sometimes, as you know it is possible to effect a judo throw while skipping a phase, but didactically it is not wise to skip a phase in order to teach the principle. In my view of the didactic approach of a jûdô throw, the issues you raise in your question deal with the connection of the Kakeru and Nageru phase. The two are didactically not the same, and in performing your throw, you can move where one starts and one ends depending on your chosen approach to the technique, but also depending on how and to what extent you realize the preceding phases.

    O.k so the "throwing principle" or the "essence" of O Goshi is that of a lever.

    A lever is a movable beam or rod that pivots on a fulcrum which is attached to a fixed point. A lever will usually have a load or some sort of resistance but in the case of O Goshi: Uke is the beam/rod, the fulcrum is Tori's hip and the legs serve as a base/fixed point with the arm serving a similar function?


    So in order to be faithful to the principle of the throw:

    - The beam/uke needs to be in contact with the fulcrum/hip; which is made possible by Tori’s arm

    - The lever action should only occur when the fulcrum/hip is stationary; which is accomplished by the non moving legs, for a moment in time.


    So in order to maximize the efficiency of the throw:

    - The fulcrum needs to be in such a position so as to expedite the tipping of uke (most of the beam needs to be above the fulcrum/more of uke needs to be above the hip)

    - Tori’s torso needs to make room for the beam/uke so that contact can be made directly over the fulcrum/hip*
    -If Tori shifts his torso to the side, then the beam/Uke will make unobstructed contact with the fulcrum/hip
    -If Tori shifts his torso to the side, then the beam/Uke won't have to travel around the fulcrum/hip, just over it


    *Tadashi Kioke demonstrating O Goshi with his torso "shifted to the side" - uke does not "travel around the hip" but over the hip.





    Now that I know all of this I understand why you wrote what you wrote:

    - Straightening the legs is immaterial to O Goshi
    - Throwing Uke around the hip is not ideal


    Last edited by Okazi on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:15 am; edited 1 time in total


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    afulldeck

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    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by afulldeck on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:08 am

    Thanks for making my point Okazi about the fulcrum being the hip not the lever.


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    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Hanon on Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:22 pm

    How many posters here execute there O-goshi in the same manner shown in the clip above posted by our friend Okazi?

    I don't????????? Embarassed affraid

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:32 pm

    Okazi wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Okazi wrote:When does one straighten their legs in O Goshi (please assume that their heels are already off the mat)?

    a) Is it after they begin to travel around the hip? So in essence we lift only that which is left to be lifted (their hips and legs).

    or

    b) Do you straighten your legs first and then rotate?

    I'm leaning more towards a), any thoughts? I hope there isn't a c)...

    I wonder how a poster feels when he asks a question and receives as many different views as there are answers ?

    The questions you are asking do not 'represent' the principle of ô-goshi but are approaches, tips on different ways to maximize its effect. In consequences, you can do either but the success of either way will depend on the the whole situation of tsukuri and kuzushi and other situational factors.

    You many not find my answer very helpful in practical terms, but if you stay with me for a second it may improve your overall understanding of the situation. From a physics point of view ô-goshi is a lever throw. Because of that none of what you describe really is the essence. The only essence is that biomechanically in order to apply a lever throw, it is necessary to momentarily stop the action, no matter how minimal this stopping may be as a function of time, but the stopping action is necessary. The lever action can only be applied during this stopping action. Even if you are very dynamically and moving all the time, even then there is a stopping action, even if it does not exceed just a fraction of a second. That is the first point. The second point is the lever. In ô-goshi that lever is created by your hip. Those are the two only actions that matter in term of the physics. There is nothing else.

    Now, from a technical-pedagogical point of view, NOT from a physics view, a throw is categorized as ô-goshi when in order to achieve that lever, the opponent is loaded on the hip, with your arm serving as the main effector to make your opponent stick to that hip. That is it.

    What you describe, as I have already indicated, are 'ways' that may help the effectiveness or realizing the above in different situations. For example, you mention 'rotating'. But rotating is not 'necessary'. That does not mean it is senseless or not effective, or wouldn't contribute to stylistic qualities, but it is not essential. Because of that reason there is no "it is" or "it should". In fact, I would go even a step further and argue that what you ask is only secondary to your preparation and debana. If your tsukuri and debana make sense, and you understand the principle, then you should not be lying awake of that what you ask.

    I did, however, not say or suggest that your question also does not make sense. No, but your question is of a didactical character rather than of a physics character. What does this mean ? In jûdô, didactics and physics are not at all the same. Didactics are there only to explain things to people and make them learn, but ... that does not mean at all that what is said or taught during a didactical approach is true at all. In jûdô, for example, throws are divided into 'didactical' categories such as te-waza, koshi-waza, ashi-waza, etc. These divisions are 'didactic', but in reality, from a physics point of view, they are often nonsensical and not true. That does not deny that they have no useful purpose. Things which are not true can still have a didactic purpose and achieve an effect of truth. We do that all the time when we use metaphors to teach things to people. The figure of the metaphor probably is completely untrue in judo, but often achieves its didactic effect in increasing someone's comprehension.

    From a didactic point of view, the method of Kôdôkan jûdô traditional is based on three phases: tsukuri, kuzushi and kake. Scientifically, this is not correct an no such three separate phases scientifically exist. But that does not matter too much, since the introduction of those phases by Kanô was ever meant as scientific truth, but only as ... educational tool. This should be no surprise since Kanô was not a scientist and there are many other things which Kanô did or suggested that are scientifically nonsense, but pedagogically effective and help people achieve their goal of mastering something

    Back to the didactics. It is thus possible to offer a different didactic approach than Kanô and such didactic approach may be either closer or further removed from scientific accuracy. Whether this as a characterization of didactic quality is important is a different discussion, but anyhow. Didactically, I disagree with Kanô, and I argue that there are in fact not three but seven phases (didactically). Sometimes, as you know it is possible to effect a judo throw while skipping a phase, but didactically it is not wise to skip a phase in order to teach the principle. In my view of the didactic approach of a jûdô throw, the issues you raise in your question deal with the connection of the Kakeru and Nageru phase. The two are didactically not the same, and in performing your throw, you can move where one starts and one ends depending on your chosen approach to the technique, but also depending on how and to what extent you realize the preceding phases.

    O.k so the "throwing principle" or the "essence" of O Goshi is that of a lever.

    A lever is a movable beam or rod that pivots on a fulcrum which is attached to a fixed point. A lever will usually have a load or some sort of resistance but in the case of O Goshi: Uke is the beam/rod, the fulcrum is Tori's hip and the legs serve as a base/fixed point with the arm serving a similar function?


    So in order to be faithful to the principle of the throw:

    - The beam/uke needs to be in contact with the fulcrum/hip; which is made possible by Tori’s arm

    - The lever action should only occur when the fulcrum/hip is stationary; which is accomplished by the non moving legs, for a moment in time.


    So in order to maximize the efficiency of the throw:

    - The fulcrum needs to be in such a position so as to expedite the tipping of uke (most of the beam needs to be above the fulcrum/more of uke needs to be above the hip)

    - Tori’s torso needs to make room for the beam/uke so that contact can be made directly over the fulcrum/hip*
    -If Tori shifts his torso to the side, then the beam/Uke will make unobstructed contact with the fulcrum/hip
    -If Tori shifts his torso to the side, then the beam/Uke won't have to travel around the fulcrum/hip, just over it


    *Tadashi Kioke -->'Koike'



    Now that I know all of this I understand why you wrote what you wrote:

    - Straightening the legs is immaterial to O Goshi
    - Throwing Uke around the hip is not ideal

    Almost. I did not say or suggest that "The lever action should only occur when the fulcrum/hip is stationary; which is accomplished by the non moving legs, for a moment in time." (...)

    What I said, or at least what the meaning of what I said, is that in order to apply a lever there will be a stopping point. In other words, it is not possible to apply a lever without stopping moment. We are talking physics, not didactic technique. In other words, you do not have to do intentionally stop. A stop WILL occur if the technique chosen or applied is a lever, even if the technique is completely applied while moving with the fluidity of Mifune.

    The efficiency of the throw will depend chiefly on your debana, on the suitability of your tsukuri, and on the degree of kuzushi.

    In order to apply or learn the throw important didactic points are that your center of mass is positioned under that from uke. This is achieved by a combination of pulling/lifting (tsuri-komi) and lowering your body by bending your knees.

    The other points you raise are ... perhaps ... somewhat overanalysis that will be pedagogically of very limited help in order to learn or accomplish the thorw. Variations of all these points will happen depending on your build, age, action, reaction, strength, height, etc.

    These are essentially the points which wdax has already kindly pointed out.

    The second point in addition to the position of your center of mass as compared to that of uke, is that your actions are coordinated. Even if you accomplish every step, but not at the right moment, in the right proportion, then the intended resultant action (a successful throw) will fail.


    _________________


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    Okazi

    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2013-01-08
    Location : Canada

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by Okazi on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:37 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:


    *Tadashi Kioke -->'Koike'

    Almost. I did not say or suggest that "The lever action should only occur when the fulcrum/hip is stationary; which is accomplished by the non moving legs, for a moment in time." (...)

    What I said, or at least what the meaning of what I said, is that in order to apply a lever there will be a stopping point. In other words, it is not possible to apply a lever without stopping moment. We are talking physics, not didactic technique. In other words, you do not have to do intentionally stop. A stop WILL occur if the technique chosen or applied is a lever, even if the technique is completely applied while moving with the fluidity of Mifune.

    The efficiency of the throw will depend chiefly on your debana, on the suitability of your tsukuri, and on the degree of kuzushi.

    In order to apply or learn the throw important didactic points are that your center of mass is positioned under that from uke. This is achieved by a combination of pulling/lifting (tsuri-komi) and lowering your body by bending your knees.

    The other points you raise are ... perhaps ... somewhat overanalysis that will be pedagogically of very limited help in order to learn or accomplish the thorw. Variations of all these points will happen depending on your build, age, action, reaction, strength, height, etc.

    These are essentially the points which wdax has already kindly pointed out.

    The second point in addition to the position of your center of mass as compared to that of uke, is that your actions are coordinated. Even if you accomplish every step, but not at the right moment, in the right proportion, then the intended resultant action (a successful throw) will fail.

    So this is what I should have taken from your response (among other things): when one begins the lever action of O Goshi the weight of uke as they are pivoting over the hip will cause a stop in the action. When the pivoting begins, a sufficient amount of weight is transferred to the hip and consequently to the floor, enough to cause a stop in action.

    Everything else you have written about resonates well with me, and I understand that these other considerations apply to most if not all "throwing principles".


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    afulldeck

    Posts : 377
    Join date : 2012-12-30

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by afulldeck on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:24 am

    Hanon wrote:How many posters here execute there O-goshi in the same manner shown in the clip above posted by our friend Okazi?

    I don't????????? Embarassed affraid

    Mike

    I start similar to the clip but after achieving the underhook, (a) I lock my head to uki chest and I don't unbalance myself with that lean you see tori did, instead (b) I kinda of drive into uki keeping my upper body as erect as possible (ie. More of a twist than a lift.) to throw.

    GregW

    Posts : 102
    Join date : 2013-01-22
    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by GregW on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:16 am

    If I understand the original poster's question, he has conceptualized o goshi with the idea that he should go in low, knees bent, wrapping the arm around the waist, and then straightening his legs to lift uke off his feet for the throw. With respect to the other commenters so far, I add my own observations. When I teach o goshi, I try to demonstrate that, once tori's hip is in the proper place, with regard to uke's center of mass, uke's feet automatically come up off the floor. Tori doesn't have to straighten his knees to lift uke at all, really. Once the friction of uke's feet against the mat is broken, a slight turn of tori's head is sufficient to throw. It takes very little strength if the position is correct.

    With beginner students, I have them do uchikomi with o goshi very slowly at first until they can feel the shift in balance that takes place. Once they can feel that, they can build muscle memory and begin to increase the tempo of the attack.

    gabe_tash

    Posts : 10
    Join date : 2013-04-03

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by gabe_tash on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:46 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2I3Q5DzqPc In the link of Iliadis you can see how his lift is simultaneous with his right step for any of his koshiwaza, which creates an extra "pop" in the hips. I believe this is ideal for competition, particularly for left v right as opposed to "oikomi" feet entry (left leg behind right if right handed).

    aspenrebel

    Posts : 38
    Join date : 2013-03-04

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by aspenrebel on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:44 pm

    BillC wrote:Ever want to mess up a man's golf game, ask him if he breathes in or out on the upswing, preferably about 15 seconds before he tees off.

    Same applies here I think ... if you gotta think about it at the time ... you're hosed.

    My advice ... not taking anything away from the previous respondents ... is to think about bigger things, bigger movements ... just throw him ... with this sole emphasis in your mind on throw from the moment it occurs to you to do so.
    HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

    That was great!! and oh so true!!! That was funny, made me laugh!!

    Yes!! Just keep on practicing doing O-Goshi, until you work it out smoothly on your own, then it will come to you. Some things you have to discover on your own, it can't come to you by you asking and someone else telling you. When you find the most fluid way to throw with O-Goshi with the greatest ease, then you will have the answer to your question. Then look at how you are doing it.

    aspenrebel

    Posts : 38
    Join date : 2013-03-04

    Re: O Goshi

    Post by aspenrebel on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:52 pm

    afulldeck wrote:
    Hanon wrote:How many posters here execute there O-goshi in the same manner shown in the clip above posted by our friend Okazi?

    I don't????????? Embarassed affraid

    Mike
    I start similar to the clip but after achieving the underhook, (a) I lock my head to uki chest and I don't unbalance myself with that lean you see tori did, instead (b) I kinda of drive into uki keeping my upper body as erect as possible (ie. More of a twist than a lift.) to throw.  
    Yeah, who steps that far across and puts their right hip that far across, sticking out? Uke will counter Tori in a second.

    I prefer to pull uke towards me, onto me, with my going less deep across than in this video, but more across than if I were to execute Uki Goshi.  I get down low, bend my knees, then once I feel uke "load" onto me I might give a little "pop" off to the right with my hip, then raise up, and throw him.

    So, you are saying you execute more of a Uki Goshi than the "traditional" O-Goshi?  Standing erect and "more of a twist than a lift" are characteristic of Uki Goshi, unless I am mistaken.  But you would know.

    Oh wait, those were 2 different people I was responding too, Mike (is that Hanon?) and other guy... oh well!!

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