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    Wrestling out - judo next?

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    Jonesy

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    Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:21 am

    Wrestling is out of the Olympics - I wish judo were to follow.

    1. I haver never been convinced of any correlation between national medal success at the Olympics and growth in judo numbers in that particular country. Yes there are one or two examples of little Molly wanting to do judo because she saw Gemma Gibbons or Ronda Rousey or whoever, but I do not think that such incidents are part of significant and sustained growth.

    2. Without the false god of TV audiences and spectator appeal the IJF have less reason to coninulusly meddle with the rules of competitive judo and the nonsense of recent years will hopefully become a thing of the past.

    3. It could lead to the IJF being less relevant in judo and also in NGB's allocating their monies in a much more balanced and equitable manner across the judo pyramid.

    Thoughts!
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:53 am

    Jonesy wrote:Wrestling is out of the Olympics - I wish judo were to follow.

    1. I haver never been convinced of any correlation between national medal success at the Olympics and growth in judo numbers in that particular country. Yes there are one or two examples of little Molly wanting to do judo because she saw Gemma Gibbons or Ronda Rousey or whoever, but I do not think that such incidents are part of significant and sustained growth.

    2. Without the false god of TV audiences and spectator appeal the IJF have less reason to coninulusly meddle with the rules of competitive judo and the nonsense of recent years will hopefully become a thing of the past.

    3. It could lead to the IJF being less relevant in judo and also in NGB's allocating their monies in a much more balanced and equitable manner across the judo pyramid.

    Thoughts!

    Jonesy-sensei presents a bold and daring idea that surely will provoke heated discussion and strong reactions. My understanding of his suggestion is not that he wants to permanently ban judo out of the Olympics, but rather until judo finds back the identity established by Kanô and sheds so much that was imposed on it because of the straightjacket that represent media and Olympics.

    I fear the idea has little chance of success because those who are the fiercest supporters of Olympic judo in terms of actually having the ability to weigh in on the process in terms of political power, are also those who personally benefit the most from judo being in the Olympics, benefits in terms of free travel, vacations in 5-star hotels, networking, and other perks. Why would anyone spontaneously want to give that up ? That will be the main challenge irrespective of one's ideological wishes.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by finarashi on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:39 pm

    My understanding is that modern pentathlon and taekwondo are thought to be the most in danger.

    Even without Olympic status the money would be divided the same way. Those who bemefit from the money distributed tend to be the ones who distribute. If not then there would be an easy means of redistributing the money in a more sensible way.


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    NBK

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by NBK on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:57 pm

    It's an interesting question - but since the Olympics only come round every four years, would dropping it affect the IJF bureaucracy that much? I would think the total TV, cable, etc revenues from all the Grand Prix far outweigh Olympic judo revenues.

    radzfman

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by radzfman on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:17 am

    If it means judo competitions restoring the Goykyo techniques to international competitions then I wouldnt mind if Judo was thrown out of the Olympics.

    Judofan

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Judofan on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:41 am

    I went and watched the wrestling at the Olympics ...at times to decide a score someone put their hand in a bag and took out a ball. At other times people threw in a sponge brick onto the mat ... it was not the wrestling of the days I remember growing up in Sheffield.
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    Mongo

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Mongo on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:41 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Wrestling is out of the Olympics - I wish judo were to follow.

    1. I haver never been convinced of any correlation between national medal success at the Olympics and growth in judo numbers in that particular country. Yes there are one or two examples of little Molly wanting to do judo because she saw Gemma Gibbons or Ronda Rousey or whoever, but I do not think that such incidents are part of significant and sustained growth.

    2. Without the false god of TV audiences and spectator appeal the IJF have less reason to coninulusly meddle with the rules of competitive judo and the nonsense of recent years will hopefully become a thing of the past.

    3. It could lead to the IJF being less relevant in judo and also in NGB's allocating their monies in a much more balanced and equitable manner across the judo pyramid.

    Thoughts!

    I'm sorry to see wrestling go. I think it's a root sport for the Olympics, and should always have a place. But, on the other hand - yes, I want to have my cake and eat it, too - I think it's done a disservice to the purity of judo. Too many sportification rules have changed things beyond what Kano Sensei likely ever had in mind. Do we know for sure? No way. We'll never know. But I can only imagine he's turning in his grave over all of the various tick tack rules for everything. So, wholeheartedly, Jonsey Sensei, I most definitely agree with you about judo hoping judo is dropped from the Olympics.

    tafftaz

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by tafftaz on Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:03 am

    As much as I like to see judo in the "shop window" so to speak, I also agree to some extent with jonesy.
    After the last Olympics I had approx 40 enquiries within a week of the judo coverage, which is the upside of judo in the games. The reality however is that out of the 40 enquiries, 24 started and now only one has kept coming, albeit intermittently.
    Most people who start do so by recommendation,word of mouth or through a friend. These are the ones who tend to stay the course.
    I think taking judo out of the games will give it a chance to revert back to a closer version of its original shiai ruleset. I will not hold my breath however.
    Wrestling being dumped is a travesty. I have never tried it but enjoyed watching it. It is after all one of the original sport systems from the original games.
    Sad.

    Von_Adams

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Von_Adams on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:33 am

    That any given sport is in or out is of course going to happen. The reasonable thing to do though would be to
    give many years warning in advance. A quick decision and implementation is devastating to those who have spent years training for the Olympics, only to have the rug pulled out from under them. What they should do is give an 8 year warning at least before stopping the sport. This would give people a chance to consider whether or not they want to go into a given sport or continue on in a sport given that it will (in the future) be phased out.
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    finarashi

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by finarashi on Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:51 pm

    Von_Adams wrote:That any given sport is in or out is of course going to happen. The reasonable thing to do though would be to
    give many years warning in advance. A quick decision and implementation is devastating to those who have spent years training for the Olympics, only to have the rug pulled out from under them. What they should do is give an 8 year warning at least before stopping the sport. This would give people a chance to consider whether or not they want to go into a given sport or continue on in a sport given that it will (in the future) be phased out.
    There is now 8 years to 2020 when (possibly) wresting is not to be included in the olympics. To me that is suspiciously close to 8 years! What do you think?


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    wdax

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by wdax on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:08 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Wrestling is out of the Olympics - I wish judo were to follow.

    1. I haver never been convinced of any correlation between national medal success at the Olympics and growth in judo numbers in that particular country. Yes there are one or two examples of little Molly wanting to do judo because she saw Gemma Gibbons or Ronda Rousey or whoever, but I do not think that such incidents are part of significant and sustained growth.

    2. Without the false god of TV audiences and spectator appeal the IJF have less reason to coninulusly meddle with the rules of competitive judo and the nonsense of recent years will hopefully become a thing of the past.

    3. It could lead to the IJF being less relevant in judo and also in NGB's allocating their monies in a much more balanced and equitable manner across the judo pyramid.

    Thoughts!

    Losing olympic status would IMO be a disaster for judo. That does not mean, that I agree to everything the IJF does or some/most of the NGBs do - this would be a completely different discussion.

    In many countries, Judo has much bigger support then other non-olympic sports because of the olympic status. This public support and funding is important to develop structures. Getting more people into Judo is far the weakest argument. Judo needs much more well educated instructors, support by schools and university etc. What we have now is of course far away from being enough and the concentration of money to a very small minority of athletes doesn´t help growing of grassroots Judo. But this is something the various NGBs must learn.

    Without the public support, much less can be done to develop Judo.

    If we look back into history, then we see a very clear picture. The growth of Judo in pre WW2 was because they had a system of professional teachers, well trained at the Kodokan and the Busen. From there, they went on to work as professionals in schools, universities, police etc. Of course, the reason for the japanese government was not to support Judo as an olympic sport. The motivation was different - but it was the massive political push that brought Judo forward.

    Today, the motivation for governments to support Judo is different (and we should be happy about this). Without this support, Judo would first slowly, then after a few years rapidly fall into decline of quality. I know some organizations going that way. Without massive international exchange, the level one can reach is very, very limited. And international exchange costs a lot of money.

    BTW: yesterday I trained with the national-team of Kazakstan. Beside, that some of them do fine Judo, I asked about the federation. They have 100.000 registered players and a population of about 12 million. Without Judo being olympic, such international exchange would never happen. A bit more then 20 years ago, these guys were our enemies in a world, that was divided into east and west. This is not the only example for Judo bringing people together. Every week, players from the Netherlands and from belgium visit our randori-sessions in Cologne. Every year other national-teams join us for a week or two. What would happen to this all, if Judo would loose olympic status. Could the young people afford going to other countries just for training and meeting other judoka?

    Hanon

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Hanon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:06 pm

    The Olympics take part every four years.

    A handful of judoka partake in the Olympics from each country.

    The Olympics now cost millions and cause some countries like Greece to still be in debit from holding them. The Olympic movement no longer represents the best in sport but is a multi million dollar business. Athletes are no longer even amateurs. Look up the true definition of the word amateur and see if that even fits the Olympic movement as it once proudly did. Are the Olympic games even about sport these days?

    I suggest we get the Olympic situation is some firm perspective.

    Just how many dojo are affected by the IOC? How many dojo are even affected by the IJF? How many are affected by their NGB?

    This talk of a disaster for judo if judo is removed from the Olympics is just a complete nonsense in every sense of the word. I hear this all the time from all sections and all sorts of judoka from white belts to senior officials.
    How did judo grow, develop and survive pre 1964?

    I take it we all realise that fewer people now practice judo than at any other time in its history? This is fact and not fiction. I cant think of one country where judo is a growing activity, there may be one or to though.

    I have seen judo die and become more and more political as time has passed. Dax Sensei you mention that judoka can travel due to the funding from the federations, this is very true and rather than look upon this as a positive I identify this as a grave negative. These judoka who represent their countries are doing a fine thing, they work hard and are dedicated to judo. They are however the tiny minority of the population of judo. That tiny minority cost the majority a fortune and this is where we differ. WHY should the fees from my club go toward funding the tiny elite that represent a country?
    Much more than that is the awful situation that most of us see that being that the elite judoka are not well looked after and though their travel etc may be paid for the funding also pays for all the hangers on who go for the free ride.
    In this country we have maybe 6 to 8 Olympic candidates yet every time that tiny group visit another country two full coach loads of personal accompany them!

    For me the IOC IJF EJU federation have done NOTHING to assist or improve the conditions in my dojo nor the vast majority of the dojos I visit.
    For more years than I care to think of I have travelled all around the globe with pupils and peers doing what you talk of without the help of any organisation. I have never wanted nor needed support from any of the associations supposed to support judo.

    You write of such a tiny minority when the majority are paying for it? I would dearly like to hear from the membership here just how the IOC, IJF or the continental unions even their federation have supported them maintain their dojo. I fear in reality its the opposite. Because the federations and other associations spend such vast amounts of money on the hangers on that average grass root dojo never see a cent in any form of support.

    In addition. Speak yourself to Joe Public and ask their opinion on judo. Its two people in pyjamas wresting and most of them now see judo as some fringe sport from Japan that is now identified with wrestling not even a martial art let alone a martial way!

    In my opinion the Olympics have killed kodokan judo. The IJF moved judo into the IOC and since then judo has been ruled and mismanaged by a group of elite idiots who are interested in lining their own pockets at any cost. Koka, yuko coloured gi etc the hideous rule changes that we sse every four years have diluted judo away from being the martial education and activity that it was into a pi55 poor sport organised by selfish people who have only their own interests at heart. It is because of the Olympics judo has been diluted to a spectator sport where we as judoka have to perform to what the public would like to see on the television. Just how has that developed judo?

    I agree 100% with what you write but suggest what you write is the tale wagging the dog. It is an elitist outlook and not an opinion that serves the vast majority of judoka in their dojo.

    The sooner judo is removed from the IOC the sooner we will be free to practice judo as it was intended free from the blood suckers who take the majority of the finance in judo to spend it on the hangers on who make up the minority. Not even the Olympic judoka truly benefit from the IOC now do they? We have a world championships and that should be enough.

    THE damage done to judo is identifying judo as a fan based sport such as football etc. Judo doesn't have fans. How many of the general public come to your locals to watch a judo bash? ZERO. The hall will be occupied by judoka, families and officials. The public don't ant to watch judo any more than I do. I am a die hard judoka yet even I don't want to sit and watch it. Point being judo has been pushed into what the IOC-IJF think the public desire to see and that HAS affected what has happened in my dojo. Judo is a doing activity and has never been appreciated by Joe Public and never will be despite those at the top trying to make it so.

    Lastly but highly significant. Can you explain why judo has experienced such a drop off in numbers world wide since judo became an Olympic sport?

    Mike


    Last edited by Hanon on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : addition)


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:05 pm

    Is it really the Olympics that have killed judo, or was judo killed simply by human nature. Couldn't one argue that 'all' have helped to kill judo by our deficiencies as humans. It's not even just the IOC, the IJF or the EJU, but also Japan. For example, it's Japan who came up with the ideas of weight classes ... when and why ? Only because after the 1961 World Championships everyone knew who would have won the 1964 Olympics if there would have only been a single category. Thus the manipulation started already there, long before the IJF turned into the monster it has become today. If Japan would have acted in a true judo spirit then they would have accepted being defeated. This has nothing to do with weight classes not being a good thing, but everything with the 'why' and 'when'. And if one reflects on that then nothing could have been further from the ideals of Kodokan judo and Kanô Jigorô.


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    finarashi

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by finarashi on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:02 am

    Currently the most significant outside monetary contributions to Judo happen through competitive Judo. Practically nobody wants to support 'grassroots' judo progams. Without IJF and high level competitions that money would be away from Judo. So if IJF does not support money going to 'grassroots' then without IJF we have a) no money and b) no notion who else would be intersted in supporting Judo.
    Most activity in Europe is from under 16 years activities. We all know that it is more sports than Judo at that age group. Note I said more sports and not only sports. If we remove sports should we stop allowing under 12 (14) year olds to Judo?
    Sports judo means we have lots of intersted youth who spend 10 years practicing sport Judo. Without sport activity wuld we have similar commitment?


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    judoratt

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by judoratt on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:18 am

    NBK wrote:It's an interesting question - but since the Olympics only come round every four years, would dropping it affect the IJF bureaucracy that much? I would think the total TV, cable, etc revenues from all the Grand Prix far outweigh Olympic judo revenues.

    If you take the Olympic qualifing out of the grand slams the level would be much lower and some would not be competitive at all. My guess is that the financial drop would be at least 30% or more.
    Last weekend I was having lunch with a old friend who was a IJF offical in the 90's and he said that the IJF recvieved $5.6 million from the IOC for the 96 Olympics. Would it be safe to assume that in 16 years 4 olympics later that # may have doubled, Maybe $10 million.
    USA Judo recieves $1.2 to $1.6 million anualy from the USOC these funds comprise as much as 95% of the high performance funding for athletes. I would wonder how much support France Japan and Russia get because of their Oympic status?
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    FightingSpirit

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by FightingSpirit on Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:03 pm

    Never thought I'd agree with the logical benefit of judo not being in the olympics... But yes, it would seem that the only way the IOC will ever come to appreciate the glory of judo as a sport is for them to re-learn to appreciate watching it from afar (for a while) in all it's glorified splendor at World Cups, Grand Prix etc...
    The fact that they are willing to revert to accept the inherent risks of having just 1 referee on the mat, simply to avoid audiences from witnessing first-hand active adjudication is rediculus...


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    thp

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    Re: Wrestling out - judo next?

    Post by thp on Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:35 pm

    Let's just come out and say it, the IOC sucks. They are corrupt and not really all that concerned about avoiding the appearance of conflict of interest. The inclusion of the Modern Pentathlon pretty much screams: "WE ARE THE IOC AND WE ARE ABOUT PERSONAL ENRICHMENT--GET USED TO IT!" So IJF learn from FILA's arrogance and stupidity and takes proper precautions. Get busy marketing Judo. Prove the fact Judo is a huge sport that sells out arenas (which it does) and can generate huge cash from television. Make sure Judo has fair and competent refs. Remember how that Bulgarian gave up his bronze medal because of a bad call from a ref? That sucked. Don't allow that to happen in Judo. Get rid of the rules that make Judo incomprehensible to viewers. For the love of all that is great in this sport get rid of the stupid no leg rules. And above all IJF be sure to kiss the collective arse of the IOC executive committee. Bear all of these things in mind you may be able to stay in the Lamepics.

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