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    Name that tokui waza!

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    Karyu Endan

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2013-02-17

    Name that tokui waza!

    Post by Karyu Endan on Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:37 pm

    So I think I found my tokui waza, and I'm eager to practice it, but I have a problem. ...I'm not sure what the proper name of the technique is.

    See, shortly before I got injured, my sensei taught us what he calls Seoi Otoshi, but what he calls Seoi Otoshi is vastly different from what the general consensus says Seoi Otoshi is (basically a drop seoi-nage sans the springing back up on your feet as you throw) whereas what he taught us is closer to what is listed as Seoi Otoshi here (second technique in the habukareta waza section) or a variation of Tai Otoshi.

    So I've resorted to using my drawing skills, which are more or less on par with my Judo skills (that is to say, non-existent) to resolve this dilemma. Hopefully the drawings and accompanying explanations, crude as they are, will help you help me, and not hinder you. Here goes:



    1) Tori grips Uke's right sleeve and left lapel.



    2) Tori lifts Uke's right arm.



    3) Holding Uke's right arm overhead, and maintaing the grip on the left lapel, Tori rotates clockwise in front of Uke.



    4) Having finished the rotation, Tori extends left leg to the side as they bring Uke's right arm to rest over their (Tori's) left shoulder and pulls forward.



    5) Tori releases grip on Uke's right arm, but maintains grip on left lapel. This is very important as Uke will not be able to fall safely otherwise.

    And to answer the inevitable question, I don't just ask my sensei for further clarification because I'm not ready to go back to the dojo yet.


    seatea

    Posts : 211
    Join date : 2013-01-19
    Location : England.

    Re: Name that tokui waza!

    Post by seatea on Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:03 pm

    Tai-otoshi, or a variation of it.

    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Name that tokui waza!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:32 pm

    It most likely is seoi-otoshi, although one can't say 100% sure from the drawning. Why is it seoi-otoshi and not tai-otoshi ? Both are lever throws, but in tai-otoshi th fulcrum is either the outstretched leg (if there is contact between the leg and the opponent) or the friction between the opponent's feet and the tatami (in case there is no contact between tori's outstretched leg and uke). In seoi-otoshi, the fulcrum is a part of the back. Whilst indeed 'otoshi' refers to a drop, you should not take this literally and assume that tori just passively lets uke fall down. Parisi's tokui-waza was definitely seoi-otoshi and there was significant pulling and throwing. The confusion is somewhat caused because in this sense 'throwing' an 'projecting' are not identical. In 'otoshi' even if 'thrown', the opponent is not really 'projected', that is to say ... he is not "thrown AWAY from your body"; you 'throw' to increased speed and impact, but not ... distance.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

    Karyu Endan

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2013-02-17

    Re: Name that tokui waza!

    Post by Karyu Endan on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:30 am

    According to your explanation, the technique I'm trying to identify is Seoi Otoshi then, but in this variation, the throw is executed from a position that resembles Tai Otoshi, because while the position from which I throw resembles Tai Otoshi, the fulcrum is actually my left shoulder, and the extended left leg is there to assist in making Uke fall sideways so I don't have to destroy their arm by flipping them forward over my shoulder. I maintain my grip on their left lapel with my right hand throughout the throw to ensure Uke lands on their back and not their shoulder.

    I'll never be able to explain it satisfactorily, but I'll keep trying; if we were to practice this together in nage-komi with myself as Tori, and you as Uke, it would go something like this:

    1) I would take hold of your right sleeve by the wrist with my left hand, and your left lapel with my right hand.

    2) I would lift your right arm over my head and rotate my body so that it is facing the way your own body was when we started. I would pull down on your right arm to put it over my left shoulder and extend my left leg outward as I completed the rotation. My right arm would now be across my chest at a 90 degree angle (still holding your left lapel and helping me pull you towards me).

    3) Your body would still be facing forward at this point, but if we were to imagine ourselves on a compass, with you beginning at due north and facing due south, and vice versa for me, you would now be looking south-southeast, and I would be facing due south. I would lean forward slightly as I pull your right arm (with my left shoulder acting as the fulcrum) forward.

    4) As a result of this action and my extended leg, your body would rotate 90 degress clockwise, placing you in danger of landing on your left shoulder, except I would pull up on your left lapel with my right hand, rotating you a further 90 degrees and ensuring you land safely on your back.

    I wish I could find a video that depicts this throw, when I search for Seoi Otoshi in Google or YouTube, I can only find the drop version. I've tried every other search term I can think of, Seoi Otoshi variation, Standing Seoi Otoshi, Tai Otoshi variation, Side Tai Otoshi, haven't found anything yet.

    I did look up Angelo Parisi, and while his videos are too fast for my inexperienced eyes, what he does seems closer to what I'm trying to describe, but I think there's a difference in the rotation, and he seems to extend his leg diagonally backwards and bends it, putting it close to the floor. I extend my leg straight out sideways, or maybe very slightly diagonally backwards, and bend my knee only very slightly.

    Cichorei Kano

    Posts : 1948
    Join date : 2013-01-16
    Age : 856
    Location : the Holy See

    Re: Name that tokui waza!

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:51 am

    Karyu Endan wrote:According to your explanation, the technique I'm trying to identify is Seoi Otoshi then, but in this variation, the throw is executed from a position that resembles Tai Otoshi, because while the position from which I throw resembles Tai Otoshi, the fulcrum is actually my left shoulder, and the extended left leg is there to assist in making Uke fall sideways so I don't have to destroy their arm by flipping them forward over my shoulder. I maintain my grip on their left lapel with my right hand throughout the throw to ensure Uke lands on their back and not their shoulder.

    I'll never be able to explain it satisfactorily, but I'll keep trying; if we were to practice this together in nage-komi with myself as Tori, and you as Uke, it would go something like this:

    1) I would take hold of your right sleeve by the wrist with my left hand, and your left lapel with my right hand.

    2) I would lift your right arm over my head and rotate my body so that it is facing the way your own body was when we started. I would pull down on your right arm to put it over my left shoulder and extend my left leg outward as I completed the rotation. My right arm would now be across my chest at a 90 degree angle (still holding your left lapel and helping me pull you towards me).

    3) Your body would still be facing forward at this point, but if we were to imagine ourselves on a compass, with you beginning at due north and facing due south, and vice versa for me, you would now be looking south-southeast, and I would be facing due south. I would lean forward slightly as I pull your right arm (with my left shoulder acting as the fulcrum) forward.

    4) As a result of this action and my extended leg, your body would rotate 90 degress clockwise, placing you in danger of landing on your left shoulder, except I would pull up on your left lapel with my right hand, rotating you a further 90 degrees and ensuring you land safely on your back.

    I wish I could find a video that depicts this throw, when I search for Seoi Otoshi in Google or YouTube, I can only find the drop version. I've tried every other search term I can think of, Seoi Otoshi variation, Standing Seoi Otoshi, Tai Otoshi variation, Side Tai Otoshi, haven't found anything yet.

    I did look up Angelo Parisi, and while his videos are too fast for my inexperienced eyes, what he does seems closer to what I'm trying to describe, but I think there's a difference in the rotation, and he seems to extend his leg diagonally backwards and bends it, putting it close to the floor. I extend my leg straight out sideways, or maybe very slightly diagonally backwards, and bend my knee only very slightly.

    Doesn't matter. It is seoi-otoshi. It can't be tai-otoshi, although there are cases such in Inokuma's tokui-waza, or sometimes how Kaminaga used to do tai-otoshi, which are often still referred to as tai-otoshi, but aren't really anymore. Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that Inokuma did not do tai-otoshi. What I am saying is that sometimes the technique he applied was no longer tai-otoshi though many keep referring to it as tai-otoshi.

    The only other technique that resembles somewhat that what you describe is what is sometimes referred to as a "reverse tsuri-komi-goshi" if that is done with a leg stretched out. I could not immediately find a picture or clip on the net that illustrates what I mean. However, here's a sequence showing Ronda at the start of that technique:



    It is important to realize that as the technique progresses, the opponent will actually over the right shoulder, not the left, in this case.


    _________________


    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."

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