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    Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

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    icb

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    Location : Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by icb on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:06 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    icb wrote:
    RidgewoodJudo wrote:I disagree with the across-the-board allegation that multi-colored belts for children are used solely as a money-making tool. While some schools may use them for that purpose (those who charge huge promotion fees)... I see the other side. I find it's a great way to encourage children. It gives them a goal to strive for.

    ...


    My club uses the Canadian system of half-color belts for kids in a pretty fair and non-commercial way. Grading for half-belts is not compulsory (i.e., children can choose to wait to go for full belt gradings if they wish). Teenage members typically choose to only go for full-color belts. Also kids who are progressing relatively quickly are jumped over the half-belts anyhow. In addition, the grading (+ belt) fee is pretty cheap for belts below green. The fee jumps up a bit for green belts and above, but this is to indicate the commitment that is required to train and compete at that level.
    In the UK there are 18 levels - 3 for each colour and the money goes to the NGB....

    Okay - that is different. In Canada there are only two levels per color, and the mudansha grading fees just go to the club.
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    RidgewoodJudo

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by RidgewoodJudo on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:21 am

    Cichorei Kano, I will say upfront, that I find it very difficult to discuss this topic with you because you will not reveal who you are. As such, I have no way of knowing what your real experience is in judo. I do not know if you've ever owned a club, taught children or adults judo, or.. for that matter... are even a black belt in judo.

    I have always been open and upfront as to who I am. I have owned and operated a dojo for 26 years. I teach adults and children, but concentrate on kids. Over that time, I've learned what does and does not work.

    But, never-the-less, assuming you have taught children, that you are a black belt, and have experience in judo...

    You said, "...even if this were true, it does not necessarily blame the club or instructor, since it may be the federation which has implemented the children's kyû rank structure that had mainly commercial motives, which the coach simply adhering to the regulations of his/her federation."

    While that may be true in some countries, it's not necessarily true here in the US. (You see, it's difficult to discuss this with you as well, because I don't know which organization --if any-- you belong to.) At least one of our three organizations allows instructors to use their own belt ranking system.

    And, in my case, for children aged 4 through 7 who are in my Dragons program.. (an introduction to judo as well as lessons on life skills) they earn white belts with colored stripes in the middle. They're always technically "white belts" but the younger children are able to have something tangible to work for.

    You said, "If one looks at judo in a way most loyal to the ideals of its founder, then judo is an education. Education typically, at least in modern times in modern democratic countries, is considered a human right, not a commercial goal. In many countries, particularly in Europe educational fees are very low, relatively speaking, nothing the sort of what people pay for colleges in the US. From that point of view it is seriously frowned upon if someone would try and make profit out of education."

    In that line of thinking, then ballet, horseback riding, and tuba lessons should be offered for free. And, for the record, I do not believe in free government schools... but that's a whole other debate for another place and time.

    Out of curiosity, why do you not reveal who you are?
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    afulldeck

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by afulldeck on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:09 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:Cichorei Kano, I will say upfront, that I find it very difficult to discuss this topic with you because you will not reveal who you are.

    Not to derail the very interesting thread on colour belts but, lets kill the real name issue. In defense of CK, someone I do not know, the use of real names is irrelevant to the forum knowledge and might even cause a problem of usurping learning because of argumentum ad verecundiam. That said, I speak from some seriously earned experience when I say everyone should be very careful posting under real names in an open social media forums. It is a particularly harzardous problem of this age.

    Read the following thread on using real names http://judo.forumsmotion.com/t260-a-question-regarding-the-use-of-real-names


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    genetic judoka

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by genetic judoka on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:24 am

    the nature of the past couple of posts is coming close to violating forum guidelines, though it has not happened yet.

    Please remember that anonymity is not at all discouraged. there is no rule against asking someone who they are (so long as it is not done disrespectfully), but there is no obligation whatsoever to disclose that information. also note that publicly disclosing personal information about others that they have not chosen to disclose themselves is grounds for a permanent ban.

    there is no need for further posts on that subject in this thread, and CK would not be out of line in selectively replying to the other parts of the post if he chooses to do so.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Hanon on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:30 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:Cichorei Kano, I will say upfront, that I find it very difficult to discuss this topic with you because you will not reveal who you are. As such, I have no way of knowing what your real experience is in judo. I do not know if you've ever owned a club, taught children or adults judo, or.. for that matter... are even a black belt in judo.

    I have always been open and upfront as to who I am.

    Out of curiosity, why do you not reveal who you are?

    CK is a 7th kyu, his age and where he lives are given in his profile. For a judo forum I think that's more than enough information? Shocked

    NOW IF he or she askes you to marry him or her or for you to enter into a business partnership or even for you to lend him or her money then you would be correct in requesting more information. Twisted Evil

    As there are perhaps over 2,000,000 judoka world wide how can you possibly expect to know every one of them? Shocked More, how would any of us know who you are? You can call yourself Harry Kenwood BUT without seeing your birth certificate, IRS return, bank account, federation card, signature on said federation card....hang on when would this end? Neutral

    I don't think you should ever listen to a single word CK writes. If I were you I would even place us both on ignore as you should protect yourself from reading something that you don't know who authored it. Hang on again....Silly suggestion as my guess would be if any of us did that we would hardly ever read another book? Idea

    On topic.

    The colour obi system was not introduced by Kawaishi. The system of coulered obi was being used in the Budokwai long before kawaishi ever came to Europe. It is possible (I don't know) that kawaishi may have been inspired by what he found when he spent his time at the Budokwai and then took such knowledge and used it in France.
    Kawaishi was not a modest person and some have said he was somewhat racist in that he thought Europeans too dumb to learn Japanese terminology so he numbered the techniques of the gokyo so us stupid Europeans didn't need to know O-goshi it was just throw em' number one or whatever.

    Now comes another dilemma. I strongly urge you to do your own research into this matter. Shouldn't take you more than a few years and a few hundred thousand mile in travel, plus a bank load of cash etc, to establish these things for yourself. Cool

    Albert.


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    DCS

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by DCS on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:05 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:And, in my case, for children aged 4 through 7 who are in my Dragons program.. (an introduction to judo as well as lessons on life skills) they earn white belts with colored stripes in the middle. They're always technically "white belts" but the younger children are able to have something tangible to work for.

    This?

    http://ridgewoodjudo.com/Ridgewood_Judo/Lil_Dragons.html

    I don't know what to say.


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    RidgewoodJudo

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by RidgewoodJudo on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:48 am

    On a general martial arts forum i had been a member of a number of years ago... there was an individual who pretended to be an expert, a "Master" of his martial art. He would "wax poetic" on any number of subjects. Over time, he developed quite a following on that forum.

    It took about three years until he was exposed as an absolute fraud.

    Having said that, I am not accusing anyone here as being a fraud, but just relating a story which explains why I'm interested in knowing the true backgound of someone who claims to be a high Dan and who gives opinions based on experience.

    I'm having trouble understanding why someone would feel the need to use a fictional name on a forum such as this. But since the rules do not require real identities, then my preference certainly doesn't matter..However, I personally, give more credence to the words of those who are open about who they are.

    Please carry on... This colored belt discussion is very interesting.





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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Stacey on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:09 pm

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:On a general martial arts forum i had been a member of a number of years ago... there was an individual who pretended to be an expert, a "Master" of his martial art. He would "wax poetic" on any number of subjects. Over time, he developed quite a following on that forum.

    It took about three years until he was exposed as an absolute fraud.






    Anonymity is not an issue on this forum. If you have a problem not knowing who somebody is, maybe you should just kick back, listen, and decide for yourself if somebody has credibility.

    I don't use my full name. You will never see me use my whole name. There's good reason for that, and like many, I resent being pressured into publishing my full name because somebody I don't know doesn't feel comfortable knowing me as just plain "stacey" from the Forum, and now from e-Judo. I'm not dissing you, please don't dis me or anybody else who practices some form of anonymity because 1. anonymity is not against the rules here, 2. demanding somebody expose their full name is against the rules, 3. you're in no position to judge the reasons a person has chosen anonymity.

    I'm sorry you were burned by somebody else on some other martial arts board. CK's responses can be checked, but only if you have the background necessary, and access to the appropriate books in multiple languages. I'm also aware that we have a number of other well educated judoka on this forum (i.e. people who use the Kodokan library and other resources around the world to get into theory and history). As we've seen, they will step in when somebody makes a mistake, a misrepresentation, an oversimplification, or other error when it comes to history or theory. None of them have come forward to correct CK (if they have, I'm sure they will point it out to me).

    So, you can stand on your inability to get around not knowing who CK is, or you can accept this forum for what it is to those of us who use it. You are a member of this community. I look forward to your contribution, especially from the standpoint of somebody who runs a club dealing with kids, and not just adults. I look forward to your contribution as you discus the validity of your paradigm and theory for structuring stuff the way you do, and I do hope you realize that we, judoka who run clubs, all want to distinguish ourselves from McDojos, and keep judo distinct from McDojos, in practice, theory, and how/why things are done. Certainly different color belts can be used to motivate, but they can also be used to generate funds for a dojo, much the way McDojos do it - mandatory promotional examinations every couple of months at the expense of quality control.

    I do try to look back at my youth and try to figure out how I would have responded to stuff. As a person who swam from age 4 to 17, there were no belts, but there were plenty of meets including but not limited to sectionals, regionals, states, junior olympics, etc. It wasn't until high school that we were given letters - major letters and minor letters, pins for captaincy, keys, and other adornments somewhat similar to getting different belts in a MA. Treated like that, I'd have no problem being a kid working towards a belt. Treated instead like an indication of mere participation, I'd have been offended by gaining a new belt every few months. I do think McDojos tend to follow the later example, which is why you find 8 year old black belts who've only trained once or twice a week for 2 years, jamming through all the colored belt ranks because anybody who shows up to test and pays their money gets the new belt.

    But, all of that would be topics for different threads. I do think it's time now to drop the protest to anonymity.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:30 pm

    RidgewoodJudo, you say it is difficult to discuss this topic with CK because you do not know whether that individual is a black belt, or has a club, or what their real name is.  However, you do not seem to find it difficult to discuss the topic with someone else of whom you do not have that knowledge?

    I also notice that you wrote "I have always been open and upfront as to who I am." (...)  Yet, you yourself do not use your real name and there is little verifiable information of use in your profile where the details you have provided indicate you are a female 5 dan.

    It does make me wonder though that if you are that person and you are a 5 dan black belt that you can't deduct from the over 18,000 posts CK has written on the old forum if CK is indeed a black belt or does judo.

    To me your post seems written to cause trouble and drag others into a doing the same.


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    techman

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by techman on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:25 pm

    We seem to have drifted off the topic.When I posted my reply on where I believed the colour belt system came from it was based on my own limited knowledge from the books I had read.Being a member of this forum and the judo info one, has given me the opportunity to broaden my understanding of the art I love.Believe me when I say that I can tell if someone really knows their subject, and curious as I may be to know who they are, respect their right to privacy.Judo is a journey for life and all of us continue to learn regardless of age, sex or grade. study
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    Jonesy

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Jonesy on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:59 pm

    techman wrote:We seem to have drifted off the topic.When I posted my reply on where I believed the colour belt system came from it was based on my own limited knowledge from the books I had read.Being a member of this forum and the judo info one, has given me the opportunity to broaden my understanding of the art I love.Believe me when I say that I can tell if someone really knows their subject, and curious as I may be to know who they are, respect their right to privacy.Judo is a journey for life and all of us continue to learn regardless of age, sex or grade. study
    Indeed we have drifted off topic and for that the blame lies squarely with RidgewoodJudo.

    Back on topic there was a BBC4 historical documentary on the other day - Timeshift - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006np8r watch it now UK based folks - 1 day left that claimed that coloured belts originated at the Budokwai with Koizumi.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Blacksmith

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Blacksmith on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:07 am

    I don't know RidgewoodJudo personally, nor would I speak for them if I did. Their post, they can defend it. But here is my perspective...

    I'm not sure that knowing a poster's birth name is crucial to most of the discussions that happen here in a cyber dojo. As even a moderately experienced judoka, you can usually filter out the nonsense, and in this specific instance, we are talking about belt color. Belt color for kids predominately. If you can run a program, you can probably figure out the belt scheme appropriate to your NGB or locality.

    Knowing where a poster is from might lend a certain context to the discussion. For example, "in my dojo, we do ______ because of the local tradition or practice of _______." That is perhaps of more relevance when we were talking in another discussion about the word 'university' and the 'right' to an education. Those words have greatly different meaning depending on which part of the world you are standing in. For that matter, the word 'right' is getting a lot of play here in the Sates depending on if you are to the left or right of it.

    In the short decade or so that I've done judo, I think I've maybe only been in a couple of dojo here in the States that had a picture of Kano displayed. That is out of all of the tournaments, clinics, events and other dojos I've visited. There is not a picture of him in the dojo that I'm a partner in. Does that mean that my judo, or that of all of the judoka who practice in the other dojo I've visited is lacking? That those sensei are passing along a somehow weakened tradition?

    Forum anonymity is an odd thing. Either have faith in a post or member or don't. I had never met RidgewoodJudo, and I suspect the same could be said for many of the folks that attended the capacity crowd that went to the Coach Certification/Recertification Clinic that they hosted some time back. Their posts on the old forum sounded reasonable, costs for the clinic did not seem out of line, there was enough info to look them up in the real world and they were only a few hours away. Sounded legit, so why not take the chance and take it at face value? I walked away re-certified, with some additional knowledge, having met some great folks and certain that it had been a good judo day. Only now, a couple of years later do I realize that that there was no picture of Kano on the wall...

    And to answer the question and stay on topic, we do white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown(2x) for the kids and white, yellow, orange, green and brown(3x) for the adults. Maybe not standard in our locality, but mimics what our senior sensei (dimly)remembers as kid overseas.


    Hanon

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:25 am

    RidgewoodJudo wrote:On a general martial arts forum i had been a member of a number of years ago... there was an individual who pretended to be an expert, a "Master" of his martial art. He would "wax poetic" on any number of subjects. Over time, he developed quite a following on that forum.

    It took about three years until he was exposed as an absolute fraud.

    Having said that, I am not accusing anyone here as being a fraud, but just relating a story which explains why I'm interested in knowing the true backgound of someone who claims to be a high Dan and who gives opinions based on experience.

    I'm having trouble understanding why someone would feel the need to use a fictional name on a forum such as this. But since the rules do not require real identities, then my preference certainly doesn't matter..However, I personally, give more credence to the words of those who are open about who they are.

    Please carry on... This colored belt discussion is very interesting.






    Hi,

    Your post is sad.
    I have taken a look at your site and find many things of great interest to me. I would sincerely like and enjoy a debate with you regarding several matters related to what you teach and how you teach it.
    An example of this would be self defence for toddlers. I find this subject interesting and if you kindly agree would like you to open a post in the self defence section here where we could exchange ideas.
    There are some things on your site that I don't understand and some things I do. I can see you are a dedicated judoka who cares about judo and your pupils.
    I am not patronising you when I write that I think we could engage in a decent debate regarding your experiences of teaching self defence to children etc.

    I write your post is sad as it is clearly aimed at one specific poster, its obviously personal. I notice that not ONE poster, including yourself, has used their real name in this thread. My question to you would be why did you single out CK? Could it be you found his post the most challenging and informative and before you give it credibility you desire to know who he or she is? If this is the case and I write this with respect, then perhaps this attitude speaks more about your own insecurities than the validity of what CK wrote?
    You mention that on another forum a person fooled you for three years? Again with respect, if you cannot asses the value of a poster by what the content is within three years I would perhaps question the validity of your own judo knowledge?

    Do you know how we asses a persons real ability-value in judo here in cyber space? Its rather simple, we peer review each others posts. The very person you are questioning is one of those posters who holds the knowledge to be able to protect you from being misinformed. BTW if you read his profile you will note the rank of 7th kyu. Hardly a rank one would choose to forge? Your hidden agenda is showing like the light from a light house, see, we are not all that stupid here. Very Happy

    I do agree with you that there is no way of stopping a person writing here under the claim of being a 10th dan. The thing is with other senior posters around here how long do you think such a fraud would exist? We have seen them on the old JF. I was being lectured in kata by a person who had never actually performed the kata he was lecturing me about. it took me all of two posts to realise that said poster was not posting with knowledge but just hot air.

    Now comes another point or even two...How can you expect to know every judoka who posts on this world wide forum? Those who use their real name is no guarantee that what they write is any more valid than those who write under a forum name?
    If you, at go dan, cannot asses the value of a post, well....The obvious is starring you in the face. Embarassed

    Can you suggest a system where by we can validate just who is who and what rank they are? Can you further assure me that even after obtaining such proof will mean what said person writes is correct? Can you begin to see how absurd this situation is? You are not alone in your quest for knowing who is who. Point is what entitles you to such knowledge? Who is forcing you to partake here and who is forcing you to believe what is written by any given member? Shocked

    We all have to accept such a forum for what it is. We all have opinions just as we have ears and a nose. What we should be doing is peer reviewing each other to ensure we are all kept on our toes and this can be done without any knowledge other than the content of any given post, that is IF we have the ability and judo knowledge to asses and review.

    I sincerely hope you will continue to post here. I genuinely would enjoy a debate with you regarding your self defence tuition. It is a subject dear to my heart as it is yours. PLEASE do not feel offended by my post. I merely desire to help you see what we have perhaps all had to face at some time when posting on a forum. You just have to read the content and do your own research.

    My best to you and yours.

    Mike

    I will write you a PM if that's okay with you?


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    Jonesy

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:12 am

    Hanon wrote:
    I do agree with you that there is no way of stopping a person writing here under the claim of being a 10th dan.
    I could create a profile saying I'm a male British 10 dan with the username GorgeousGeorgieKerr. It does not mean I am him - or am I?

    Hanon

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:29 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    I do agree with you that there is no way of stopping a person writing here under the claim of being a 10th dan.
    I could create a profile saying I'm a male British 10 dan with the username GorgeousGeorgieKerr. It does not mean I am him - or am I?

    This IS THE POINT. IT DOESNT MATTER. One could be a genuine 8th dan and still have limited judo knowledge. One could be a sho dan and have an immense understanding. Secondly as there are maybe 2,000.000 judoka on this globe how in the name of heck can we know every one of them? Shocked

    The only way to asses a posters value here is by the content they write and ones own ability to understand it or challenge it. How is that so beyond the understanding of some posters? Its embarrassing! Embarassed

    I find peers review to be the best tool here at maintaining a genuine knowledge base PROVIDING we keep those who have the knowledge and don't pi55 them off by constantly trying to invade their private lives.

    This new forum could so easily become the grounds of 4th kyu sensei.

    Now the true revelation. Are you now saying you are not GorgeousGeorgieKerr? If you are I am truly shocked. affraid

    I have just opened a new thread in the appropriate section of this forum to address this situation.

    I hope we are not going down this absurd road again AND AGAIN and again, and yet again and again!

    Sanshiro Samura Isogai. 15th dan of the parrot ryu with oak leaves and bar.


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:06 am

    For those who for whatever reason are not satisfied with my synthesis on the essence of belt colors, their establishment and reason, and Kanō's intent to keep jūdō noncommercial but use the dan-rank system as a way of gaining income, or anything I provide in translation on this topic, please, refer to:

    Masumoto Yoshizō (松本芳三), editor. Kanō Jigorō Chosaku-shū 嘉納治五郎著作集 [Collected Works of Kanō Jigorō], vol. 3. Tōkyō: Gogatsu Shobo, 1983. [in Japanese]


    Reasons for the creation of the ranking system are detailed by Kanō in:

    Kanō Jigorō (嘉納治五郎). Yūkō-no-Katsudō (有効の活動) 1920: 6 (6). [in Japanese]



    If you cannot read Japanese, then the following sources written in English (by others than me) provide some insight into this topic


    Bennett Alex, editor & translator: Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan. An innovative response to modernization. Tōkyō: Kōdōkan Jūdō Institute; 2009: p. 114-115.

    *Hoare Syd. The Dan and Kyu ranking system. In: A history of judo. London: Yamagi Books, Ltd.; 2009, p. 67-68.

    Hoare Syd. Judo and money. In: A history of judo. London: Yamagi Books, Ltd.; 2009, p. 69-70.

    Note: there is an error in (*) where it mentions the year 1932. This should have been March 1930, and the system is already included in Kanō's own textbook. If you want to verify whether this is indeed an error, then consult: Kanō Jigorō (嘉納治五郎). Jūdō kyōhon jōkan (柔道教範 上潘) [A textbook of jūdō]. Tōkyō: Shushiki Kaisha; 1931, p. 10-11 [in Japanese]


    I cannot provide scans of these sources here on line for the simple reason that I do not have a scanner here and more importantly because doing so would violate copyright. However, these books in English are commonly available and if someone else wants and has the time to type over the relevant sections here, put them between parentheses and add a clear comment to their source, they are welcome to do so.



    The right to education as considered in Europe, can be found as art. 12 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which can be downloaded here:

    http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5CC24A7-DC13-4318-B457-5C9014916D7A/0/Convention_ENG.pdf

    If one wants to also check individual countries, then the Constitution of most countries provides such information, and is often available via the website of the embassy or government of that country.


    That tuition fees (for college) in the US (and a few countries such as Japan, Australia) are almost astronomic in comparison to most European countries (with the exception of the UK) is such common knowledge that one wonders if references are necessary for that. Simply checking tuition fees of a couple of colleges worldwide tells you this. However, if one still prefers references written in understandable language, see here for a comparison of college tuition fees worldwide:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/tuition-costs-by-country-college-higher-education-2012-6?op=1
    http://jimsheng.hubpages.com/hub/Comparison-of-cost-of-higher-education-around-the-world
    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/tuition-fees-around-the-world-26523665.html
    http://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/choosing-university/using-topuniversitiescom-course-fee-tables


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    Post by medo on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:37 am

    One would assume that cyber postings from the well traveled Judoka are easy to spot, easy to read and very educational . You have to bear in mind that not all dan grades are well traveled other than entering grading's and odd competition there knowledge could come from one club, one sensei for most of their Judo life. Remember most associations or clubs are not keen on you training elsewhere, so when you are told Kata is for old Judoka and won’t help your competitive edge or that sacrifice throws are bad Judo if you have not sort skills or knowledge from elsewhere you will tend believe that kind of rubbish. Rolling Eyes

    Anyway back to belt systems something I use to do at my club for Juniors was use a Purple belt which was awarded at the start of each month to the most improved Judoka for last month it was only to be worn in the club and the junior had to hand it over to the next most improved in a bowing ceremony.
    Because gradings tended to be quarterly it just helped reward the kids that were trying their hardest, not necessarily the best in the group. I explain to the class and the parents why the youngster was being awarded belt and the belt would change hands each month (3 different sizes in my holdall). It’s not expensive like patches/badges star type systems helps some concentrate that little bit harder. sunny
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    Stacey

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Stacey on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:41 am

    medo wrote:One would assume that cyber postings from the well traveled Judoka are easy to spot, easy to read and very educational . You have to bear in mind that not all dan grades are well traveled other than entering grading's and odd competition there knowledge could come from one club, one sensei for most of their Judo life. Remember most associations or clubs are not keen on you training elsewhere, so when you are told Kata is for old Judoka and won’t help your competitive edge or that sacrifice throws are bad Judo if you have not sort skills or knowledge from elsewhere you will tend believe that kind of rubbish. Rolling Eyes

    Anyway back to belt systems something I use to do at my club for Juniors was use a Purple belt which was awarded at the start of each month to the most improved Judoka for last month it was only to be worn in the club and the junior had to hand it over to the next most improved in a bowing ceremony.
    Because gradings tended to be quarterly it just helped reward the kids that were trying their hardest, not necessarily the best in the group. I explain to the class and the parents why the youngster was being awarded belt and the belt would change hands each month (3 different sizes in my holdall). It’s not expensive like patches/badges star type systems helps some concentrate that little bit harder.
    sunny

    That's a pretty cool idea. Did it help with retention and attendance?

    medo

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by medo on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:58 am

    Stacey wrote:
    medo wrote:One would assume that cyber postings from the well traveled Judoka are easy to spot, easy to read and very educational . You have to bear in mind that not all dan grades are well traveled other than entering grading's and odd competition there knowledge could come from one club, one sensei for most of their Judo life. Remember most associations or clubs are not keen on you training elsewhere, so when you are told Kata is for old Judoka and won’t help your competitive edge or that sacrifice throws are bad Judo if you have not sort skills or knowledge from elsewhere you will tend believe that kind of rubbish. Rolling Eyes

    Anyway back to belt systems something I use to do at my club for Juniors was use a Purple belt which was awarded at the start of each month to the most improved Judoka for last month it was only to be worn in the club and the junior had to hand it over to the next most improved in a bowing ceremony.
    Because gradings tended to be quarterly it just helped reward the kids that were trying their hardest, not necessarily the best in the group. I explain to the class and the parents why the youngster was being awarded belt and the belt would change hands each month (3 different sizes in my holdall). It’s not expensive like patches/badges star type systems helps some concentrate that little bit harder.
    sunny

    That's a pretty cool idea. Did it help with retention and attendance?

    Yes Its a tool that can be used in many ways to help the not so naturally gifted! As an incentive to help the ones getting perhaps a little bored that may be thinking of leaving, the one that came back from the grading that did not have a good day, and parents like it when little Johny/Janet have been praised in class and have something to show off at home.
    Its also good to see the little ones hand over something they have earned to a buddy in the class with a bow and a round of claps from pupils and parents alike.
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    DCS

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by DCS on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:However, these books in English are commonly available and if someone else wants and has the time to type over the relevant sections here, put them between parentheses and add a clear comment to their source, they are welcome to do so.
    That would be great.


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    Hanon

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:40 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:For those who for whatever reason are not satisfied with my synthesis on the essence of belt colors, their establishment and reason, and Kanō's intent to keep jūdō noncommercial but use the dan-rank system as a way of gaining income, or anything I provide in translation on this topic, please, refer to:

    Masumoto Yoshizō (松本芳三), editor. Kanō Jigorō Chosaku-shū 嘉納治五郎著作集 [Collected Works of Kanō Jigorō], vol. 3. Tōkyō: Gogatsu Shobo, 1983. [in Japanese]


    Reasons for the creation of the ranking system are detailed by Kanō in:

    Kanō Jigorō (嘉納治五郎). Yūkō-no-Katsudō (有効の活動) 1920: 6 (6). [in Japanese]



    If you cannot read Japanese, then the following sources written in English (by others than me) provide some insight into this topic


    Bennett Alex, editor & translator: Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan. An innovative response to modernization. Tōkyō: Kōdōkan Jūdō Institute; 2009: p. 114-115.

    *Hoare Syd. The Dan and Kyu ranking system. In: A history of judo. London: Yamagi Books, Ltd.; 2009, p. 67-68.

    Hoare Syd. Judo and money. In: A history of judo. London: Yamagi Books, Ltd.; 2009, p. 69-70.

    Note: there is an error in (*) where it mentions the year 1932. This should have been March 1930, and the system is already included in Kanō's own textbook. If you want to verify whether this is indeed an error, then consult: Kanō Jigorō (嘉納治五郎). Jūdō kyōhon jōkan (柔道教範 上潘) [A textbook of jūdō]. Tōkyō: Shushiki Kaisha; 1931, p. 10-11 [in Japanese]


    I cannot provide scans of these sources here on line for the simple reason that I do not have a scanner here and more importantly because doing so would violate copyright. However, these books in English are commonly available and if someone else wants and has the time to type over the relevant sections here, put them between parentheses and add a clear comment to their source, they are welcome to do so.



    The right to education as considered in Europe, can be found as art. 12 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which can be downloaded here:

    http://www.echr.coe.int/NR/rdonlyres/D5CC24A7-DC13-4318-B457-5C9014916D7A/0/Convention_ENG.pdf

    If one wants to also check individual countries, then the Constitution of most countries provides such information, and is often available via the website of the embassy or government of that country.


    That tuition fees (for college) in the US (and a few countries such as Japan, Australia) are almost astronomic in comparison to most European countries (with the exception of the UK) is such common knowledge that one wonders if references are necessary for that. Simply checking tuition fees of a couple of colleges worldwide tells you this. However, if one still prefers references written in understandable language, see here for a comparison of college tuition fees worldwide:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/tuition-costs-by-country-college-higher-education-2012-6?op=1
    http://jimsheng.hubpages.com/hub/Comparison-of-cost-of-higher-education-around-the-world
    http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/tuition-fees-around-the-world-26523665.html
    http://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/choosing-university/using-topuniversitiescom-course-fee-tables

    Forgive me CK sensei. I am unsure whose behaviour is more absurd those who invade your private life and ridicule you or you for continuing to allow it and replying with decent non confrontational highly informative and educative posts.

    Sincerely,

    Mike


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    cuivien

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by cuivien on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:42 am

    My copy of Bennett's book is at work, so I'll quote briefly from Syd Hoare.


    Hoare Syd. The Dan and Kyu ranking system. In: A history of judo. London: Yamagi Books, Ltd.; 2009, p. 67-68.
    (...)
    New judo students were called hosshin-sha (footnote: Hosshin-sha means one who has experienced religious awakening. Here it is used in the sense of realizing that here is a worthwhile Way to follow and beginning the training) to start with and wore a light blue belt. Once they began to go up the ranks they then became mu-dansha (non-dan grades) and were ranked 5th Kyu to 1st Kyu in ascending order. However there were separate colour belts for youths and adults. Youths of grades 3rd-1st kyu wore purple belts and adults of the same grade wore brown belts. Youths and adults of 5th to 4th kyu wore white belts. (...)

    Ibid, p.69, a quote from Kano under the sub-title "judo and money"
    At that time I was searching widely for trainees and decided to charge no fees for instruction or dojo use. This was because I was more influenced by old Japanese ideas than Western ones. In other words I believed that teaching the Way to people was not something that should be charged for. However when new students first joined the Kodokan there was a rule that they should present a fan to the dojo.


    As a side note (feel free to skip this):
    I am occasionally referred to as one of those people who take a scholarly interest in jûdô, including its history and philosophical underpinnings. I read fluent Japanese, and have a decent grasp of classical Chinese. I have a MA primarily in linguistics, but with a broad background in Asian studies (particularly political and ideological history). I feel pretty confident in my ability to sort researched, informed utterances from those simply parroting what they have been told and those just spewing BS. Knowing the writer's full name and pedigree is hardly relevant; if something is correct, is is correct, regardless if the writer is a 14-year-old girl with a secret crush or a 60+ full-blown professor emeritus. Knowledge is king, not name or status.


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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:09 am

    cuivien wrote:My copy of Bennett's book is at work, so I'll quote briefly from Syd Hoare.


    Hoare Syd. The Dan and Kyu ranking system. In: A history of judo. London: Yamagi Books, Ltd.; 2009, p. 67-68.
    (...)
    New judo students were called hosshin-sha (footnote: Hosshin-sha means one who has experienced religious awakening. Here it is used in the sense of realizing that here is a worthwhile Way to follow and beginning the training) to start with and wore a light blue belt. Once they began to go up the ranks they then became mu-dansha (non-dan grades) and were ranked 5th Kyu to 1st Kyu in ascending order. However there were separate colour belts for youths and adults. Youths of grades 3rd-1st kyu wore purple belts and adults of the same grade wore brown belts. Youths and adults of 5th to 4th kyu wore white belts. (...)

    Ibid, p.69, a quote from Kano under the sub-title "judo and money"
    At that time I was searching widely for trainees and decided to charge no fees for instruction or dojo use. This was because I was more influenced by old Japanese ideas than Western ones. In other words I believed that teaching the Way to people was not something that should be charged for. However when new students first joined the Kodokan there was a rule that they should present a fan to the dojo.


    As a side note (feel free to skip this):
    I am occasionally referred to as one of those people who take a scholarly interest in jûdô, including its history and philosophical underpinnings. I read fluent Japanese, and have a decent grasp of classical Chinese. I have a MA primarily in linguistics, but with a broad background in Asian studies (particularly political and ideological history). I feel pretty confident in my ability to sort researched, informed utterances from those simply parroting what they have been told and those just spewing BS. Knowing the writer's full name and pedigree is hardly relevant; if something is correct, is is correct, regardless if the writer is a 14-year-old girl with a secret crush or a 60+ full-blown professor emeritus. Knowledge is king, not name or status.

    Bravo.

    I can see you are going to be as popular as woopsie in a swimming pool on a judo forum. Join the club. Rolling Eyes

    Much to much 'common sense' to enjoy a problem free experience on a judo forum! affraid

    There is no greater subject of problems known to judo than rank, That is, of course, other peoples rank. From a cultural perspective such a system suited the Japanese culture, it has not travelled well at all.
    The primary aim of introducing colour ranks outside Japan was one, primarily, of safety. In general when a higher coloured obi makes practice with a lower ranked judoka it was an unwritten code to adjust ones judo to help the lower rank learn from the experience. Sand bagging was simply not needed as no one was involved in medals way back. As judo has become a sport such noble ideals have given way to a culture of we are all equal and thus all are treated the same, just sports people. This is dangerous as one of the main causes for the massive drop out seen in an awful lot of clubs is injury bought on by higher rank abuse. Novices are not seen as pupils in learning and to be treated with appropriate respect but just another body in a gi who is there for a bashing.
    On the old JF such horror stories where not infrequent.

    Providing a club does not abuse grading's and holds two, maybe three per year I can see no reason why a regular pupil should not take the chance to try for a new rank.

    Let us also not forget its not only children who enjoy encouragement and been given goals to achieve, we all do. I also agree with having more than the standard 6 kyu ranks for children. Some children start judo at 5 is it reasonable to expect said child to only see a new rank every 2 years?
    I do not agree at all with grading any judoka as an automatic process. All pupils should and must demonstrate there judo in front of their peers and sensei and work very hard for each rank. This is one of the lessons that can be taken from the tatami into life. If you don't work at school you will not pass your exams etc. Plus children and adults need to learn that judo is not a visa card activity.

    Mike

    You have my respect.


    Last edited by Hanon on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling Grrr)


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    cuivien

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by cuivien on Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:43 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Bravo.

    I can see you are going to be as popular as woopsie in a swimming pool on a judo forum. Join the club. Rolling Eyes

    Much to much 'common sense' to enjoy a problem free experience on a judo forum! affraid

    There is no greater subject of problems known to judo than rank, That is, of course, other peoples rank. From a cultural perspective such a system suited the Japanese culture, it has not travelled well at all.
    The primary aim of introducing colour ranks outside Japan was one, primarily, of safety. In general when a higher coloured obi makes practice with a lower ranked judoka it was an unwritten code to adjust ones judo to help the lower rank learn from the experience. Sand bagging was simply not needed as no one was involved in medals way back. As judo has become a sport such noble ideals have given way to a culture of we are all equal and thus all are treated the same, just sports people. This is dangerous as one of the main causes for the massive drop out seen in an awful lot of clubs is injury bought on by higher rank abuse. Novices are not seen as pupils in learning and to be treated with appropriate respect but just another body in a gi who is there for a bashing.
    On the old JF such horror stories where not infrequent.

    Providing a club does not abuse grading's and holds two, maybe three per year I can see no reason why a regular pupil should not take the chance to try for a new rank.

    Let us also not forget its not only children who enjoy encouragement and been given goals to achieve, we all do. I also agree with having more than the standard 6 kyu ranks for children. Some children start judo at 5 is it reasonable to expect said child to only see a new rank every 2 years?
    I do not agree at all with grading any judoka as an automatic process. All pupils should and must demonstrate there judo in front of their peers and sensei and work very hard for each rank. This is one of the lessons that can be taken from the tatami into life. If you don't work at school you will not pass your exams etc. Plus children and adults need to learn that judo is not a visa card activity.

    Mike

    You have my respect.

    Thank you Hanon. And you have mine.

    As for belts for children, I am not totally opposed to having more than the regular 6 kyu grades. In contrary, I understand that the general lack of "patience"* displayed by Westerners and particularly children would cause a massive drop-out rate if we were to revert to the original blue->white->purple/brown->black...

    * in absence of a better word. I want to say 我慢 gaman, which usually is translated as "patience; endurance; perseverance", but (at least not in my head) they are not semantically identical.

    I was always told that the best way to improve was to practice with someone slightly better than yourself. If the gap is too large, nothing will be gained. What you say about the higher colored obi adjusting his/hers level fits nicely with this IMO Smile


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    Hanon

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    Re: Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

    Post by Hanon on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:01 am

    cuivien wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Bravo.

    I can see you are going to be as popular as woopsie in a swimming pool on a judo forum. Join the club. Rolling Eyes

    Much to much 'common sense' to enjoy a problem free experience on a judo forum! affraid

    There is no greater subject of problems known to judo than rank, That is, of course, other peoples rank. From a cultural perspective such a system suited the Japanese culture, it has not travelled well at all.
    The primary aim of introducing colour ranks outside Japan was one, primarily, of safety. In general when a higher coloured obi makes practice with a lower ranked judoka it was an unwritten code to adjust ones judo to help the lower rank learn from the experience. Sand bagging was simply not needed as no one was involved in medals way back. As judo has become a sport such noble ideals have given way to a culture of we are all equal and thus all are treated the same, just sports people. This is dangerous as one of the main causes for the massive drop out seen in an awful lot of clubs is injury bought on by higher rank abuse. Novices are not seen as pupils in learning and to be treated with appropriate respect but just another body in a gi who is there for a bashing.
    On the old JF such horror stories where not infrequent.

    Providing a club does not abuse grading's and holds two, maybe three per year I can see no reason why a regular pupil should not take the chance to try for a new rank.

    Let us also not forget its not only children who enjoy encouragement and been given goals to achieve, we all do. I also agree with having more than the standard 6 kyu ranks for children. Some children start judo at 5 is it reasonable to expect said child to only see a new rank every 2 years?
    I do not agree at all with grading any judoka as an automatic process. All pupils should and must demonstrate there judo in front of their peers and sensei and work very hard for each rank. This is one of the lessons that can be taken from the tatami into life. If you don't work at school you will not pass your exams etc. Plus children and adults need to learn that judo is not a visa card activity.

    Mike

    You have my respect.

    Thank you Hanon. And you have mine.

    As for belts for children, I am not totally opposed to having more than the regular 6 kyu grades. In contrary, I understand that the general lack of "patience"* displayed by Westerners and particularly children would cause a massive drop-out rate if we were to revert to the original blue->white->purple/brown->black...

    * in absence of a better word. I want to say 我慢 gaman, which usually is translated as "patience; endurance; perseverance", but (at least not in my head) they are not semantically identical.

    I was always told that the best way to improve was to practice with someone slightly better than yourself. If the gap is too large, nothing will be gained. What you say about the higher colored obi adjusting his/hers level fits nicely with this IMO Smile

    Thank you for your kind reply.

    I think it important to realise that though we practice a Japanese educational system it is wise to accept that we in the West do not share the culture of those from the East. I am NOT even suggesting one culture base is superior nor inferior to the other, I merely desire to mention that that are different and both culture bases have their positives and negatives especially when mixing them.

    The late great T P Leggett wrote that when his Japanese peers visited him here in Europe and they partook in the game of golf that the Japanese tried to be more Western than he was and like wise when Leggett sensei was in Japan he tried to be more Japanese than the Japanese. There are numerous very interesting and entertaining stories written by this great man of judo.

    May I mention a classic example. The kuro obi. In the West this obi is seen as the end of ones training one has arrived. In japan of old the kuro obi was understood for what it was that being that the pupil has reached a stage where judo practice and education may begin. Try explain that concept to most Europeans including myself as a teenager!

    Though my sensei where Japanese and not only Japanese but pre WW11 DNBK, I still to this day struggle with many of the cultural differences and nuances that come automatically to those born and raised in Japan.

    The longer I practice judo the more I realise that judo does not automatically travel well. I am also well aware of the negative affect the West has had on judo and indeed these days the Japanese themselves.

    I have not found the system of rank in judo to have been truly understood by us in the West, far too many judoka are overly concerned about the rank of other judoka than that of their own performance and knowledge base.

    Mike


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