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    Is the IJF missing a key rule?

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    judoratt

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by judoratt on Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:35 am

    fabulous, uphill both ways in the snow. Very Happy
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:45 am

    judoratt wrote:fabulous, uphill both ways in the snow. Very Happy

    It's true, I've seen the evidence ! Here it is:



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    judoratt

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by judoratt on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:07 am

    The Monty Python skit reminds me of some of the judo stories
    I have heard later in the evening.
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    Stacey

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Stacey on Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:36 am

    judoratt wrote: The Monty Python skit reminds me of some of the judo stories
    I have heard later in the evening.

    I do believe this was the primary inspiration for Masters/Veterans judo events - so afterwards we could share judo "stories"

    Now, how that relates to IJF rule implementation, I'm not exactly sure, but I can easily see a group of older judoka, after sharing stories and a few beers, writing down new "rules" on available cocktail napkins under the guise of, "what if we changed this rule....."
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    BillC

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by BillC on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:58 pm

    Stacey wrote:
    judoratt wrote: The Monty Python skit reminds me of some of the judo stories
    I have heard later in the evening.

    I do believe this was the primary inspiration for Masters/Veterans judo events - so afterwards we could share judo "stories"

    Now, how that relates to IJF rule implementation, I'm not exactly sure, but I can easily see a group of older judoka, after sharing stories and a few beers, writing down new "rules" on available cocktail napkins under the guise of, "what if we changed this rule....."

    1. Indeed ... a new rule list over lunch the other day after workout included such excellent ideas to make judo more exciting such as "both players get tasers to stash in their judogi ... one works, or maybe both but no one knows until ... everybody likes surprises."

    2. Some are old enough to have seen the Pythons in their original broadcasts ...

    3. ... and for that crowd Shagoro Kano and I prefer the term "silver league" to either masters or veterans.

    4. Where are they getting all these exceptionally top heavy women to read the weather report on TV lately?bounce bounce

    5. And one need not be in the silver league category to remember when this whole thread played out almost exactly on the old forum ... four yorkshiremen included ...
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    finarashi

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by finarashi on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:09 pm

    BillC wrote:
    5. And one need not be in the silver league category to remember when this whole thread played out almost exactly on the old forum ... four yorkshiremen included ...
    ... happy days ... pass the peanuts ...


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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:27 am

    sodo wrote:
    finarashi wrote:
    sodo wrote:
    Fritz wrote:There would be no need for such rule, it would be sufficient to give the other a
    little bit more time to handle the turtle.

    for once we agree Very Happy

    There are too many rules and too much interference by the refs. The problems really started with the introduction of minor scores and penalties. get rid of them and you and lengthen the contest time and you will get rid of a lot of tactical play and better judo cheers

    atb

    sodo

    Remeber the history. Have you asked for yourself why did the small scores come to play? Before they were displayed the small scores were supposedly kept in mind by the referees. Then when there was no waza-ari and no ippon they voted for the decision. Too many coaches and players were mad because the referees 'forgot' some scores and 'remebered' others. So having koka and yuko dispalyed was considered an advantage by all parties; players, coaches and referees were happy when that came into play.

    The minor scores became important because the length of the contest was reduced and the no. and most of the tounaments dropped the pool system for the preliminaries.

    The minor scores were not so much a problem as the minor penalties, I can still remember setting opponents up in the corner and forcing them to make a "wrong step" onto red to avoid an attack Twisted Evil

    atb

    sodo

    I loved to start off a match by tricking an opponent into stepping out..keikoku, instant waza ari for me! used to practice several ways to do it, too.


    Gus

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Gus on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:52 am

    genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?

    you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?

    Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:48 am

    Gus wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?

    you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?

    Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.

    Yotsunbai 四つん這い (in American English often popularly referred to as 'turtling') is not a mere defensive position in jûdô. Instead, its categorization in Kôdôkan jûdô is:

    (1) Tori defending from yotsunbai.
    (2) Tori attacking from yotsunbai.

    One of the reasons that throwing onto the front is not scoreable is the risk for injury. Classical breakfalls work best on the back. They include the principle of rounding the body to minimize impact and avoiding to stick out your arms. When you fall on your front, you can't round the back and your arms have to be stuck out towards the front to break fall. This is a particularly dangerous if the throwing partner falls with and lands on top of you, something that is not always avoidable. When working out with Van de Walle he continuously threw me on his face because his throws were that powerful that I was forced to make and extra-half turn to the air. It was highly unpleasant. To imagine he would also have fallen on top of me in that position is beyond reasonable. Even when making a perfect forward judo flat fall, a partner falling on top would easily lead to a bilateral humeroscapular dislocation towards posterior, potentially complicated by a scapular fracture and radio/ulnar-humeral dislocation/fracture towards posterior. On top of that there are major risks for the head. During a normal backwards fall, the chin ideally is moved towards the sternum hence avoiding impact. However, if falling towards the front, it would mean having to stretch your head backwards. This position is far less safe as there is a potential for still hitting the tatami with your chin. Particularly if you have a partner that then also falls on top of your body, you might fracture your neck and the axial or lower cervical vertebrae. Such fractures cannot be prevented by the presence of a tatami. Depending on the exact level of the fracture the outcome may be lethal, not just because of potential paralysis but because the body's neurological breathing center functioning requires intact neural structures at that level. To put it somewhat differently, when a person is hung, well-hung, unlike what people think, he does not die because of choking but because the dens (a processus sticking out from the second cervical vertebrae is forced into the neural center irreversably damaging and taking out breathing function. I would strongly suggest not having to add this diverse pathology to the plethora of outcomes from a standard judo competition.


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    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    Ben Reinhardt

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:56 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Gus wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?

    you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?

    Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.

    Yotsunbai 四つん這い (in American English often popularly referred to as 'turtling') is not a mere defensive position in jûdô. Instead, its categorization in Kôdôkan jûdô is:

    (1) Tori defending from yotsunbai.
    (2) Tori attacking from yotsunbai.

    One of the reasons that throwing onto the front is not scoreable is the risk for injury. Classical breakfalls work best on the back. They include the principle of rounding the body to minimize impact and avoiding to stick out your arms. When you fall on your front, you can't round the back and your arms have to be stuck out towards the front to break fall. This is a particularly dangerous if the throwing partner falls with and lands on top of you, something that is not always avoidable. When working out with Van de Walle he continuously threw me on his face because his throws were that powerful that I was forced to make and extra-half turn to the air. It was highly unpleasant. To imagine he would also have fallen on top of me in that position is beyond reasonable. Even when making a perfect forward judo flat fall, a partner falling on top would easily lead to a bilateral humeroscapular dislocation towards posterior, potentially complicated by a scapular fracture and radio/ulnar-humeral dislocation/fracture towards posterior. On top of that there are major risks for the head. During a normal backwards fall, the chin ideally is moved towards the sternum hence avoiding impact. However, if falling towards the front, it would mean having to stretch your head backwards. This position is far less safe as there is a potential for still hitting the tatami with your chin. Particularly if you have a partner that then also falls on top of your body, you might fracture your neck and the axial or lower cervical vertebrae. Such fractures cannot be prevented by the presence of a tatami. Depending on the exact level of the fracture the outcome may be lethal, not just because of potential paralysis but because the body's neurological breathing center functioning requires intact neural structures at that level. To put it somewhat differently, when a person is hung, well-hung, unlike what people think, he does not die because of choking but because the dens (a processus sticking out from the second cervical vertebrae is forced into the neural center irreversably damaging and taking out breathing function. I would strongly suggest not having to add this diverse pathology to the plethora of outcomes from a standard judo competition.

    Amen to that...I've been knocked out/stunned several times in shai upon turning out of a throw and getting driven onto my front. In fact, that's pretty much SOP when someone turns out to their front...drive them into the tatami and follow to ne waza.

    One can only imagine the fallout of PURPOSELY throwing an opponent onto their front!


    Gus

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Gus on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:05 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Gus wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?

    you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?

    Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.

    Yotsunbai 四つん這い (in American English often popularly referred to as 'turtling') is not a mere defensive position in jûdô. Instead, its categorization in Kôdôkan jûdô is:

    (1) Tori defending from yotsunbai.
    (2) Tori attacking from yotsunbai.

    One of the reasons that throwing onto the front is not scoreable is the risk for injury. Classical breakfalls work best on the back. They include the principle of rounding the body to minimize impact and avoiding to stick out your arms. When you fall on your front, you can't round the back and your arms have to be stuck out towards the front to break fall. This is a particularly dangerous if the throwing partner falls with and lands on top of you, something that is not always avoidable. When working out with Van de Walle he continuously threw me on his face because his throws were that powerful that I was forced to make and extra-half turn to the air. It was highly unpleasant. To imagine he would also have fallen on top of me in that position is beyond reasonable. Even when making a perfect forward judo flat fall, a partner falling on top would easily lead to a bilateral humeroscapular dislocation towards posterior, potentially complicated by a scapular fracture and radio/ulnar-humeral dislocation/fracture towards posterior. On top of that there are major risks for the head. During a normal backwards fall, the chin ideally is moved towards the sternum hence avoiding impact. However, if falling towards the front, it would mean having to stretch your head backwards. This position is far less safe as there is a potential for still hitting the tatami with your chin. Particularly if you have a partner that then also falls on top of your body, you might fracture your neck and the axial or lower cervical vertebrae. Such fractures cannot be prevented by the presence of a tatami. Depending on the exact level of the fracture the outcome may be lethal, not just because of potential paralysis but because the body's neurological breathing center functioning requires intact neural structures at that level. To put it somewhat differently, when a person is hung, well-hung, unlike what people think, he does not die because of choking but because the dens (a processus sticking out from the second cervical vertebrae is forced into the neural center irreversably damaging and taking out breathing function. I would strongly suggest not having to add this diverse pathology to the plethora of outcomes from a standard judo competition.

    All the more reason to penalise deliberately turning out onto your front then.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: Is the IJF missing a key rule?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:57 am

    Gus wrote:

    All the more reason to penalise deliberately turning out onto your front then.

    I have trouble following your argument. My understanding is that you had indicated you wanted landing on your front to be awarded a score ("Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something)" [...]), now you want it to be penalized, or at least if that result goes out from the uke ?

    In any case, when you attempt to throw me and I turn out of it to the front, my intent is not to throw myself on my face. My intent in most cases instead is to apply kaeshi-waza either in tachi-waza or in newaza. Since judo is a dynamic activity, I cannot be 100% sure that I will succeed. If I don't succeed then at least I hope I will land on my feet, but again, I cannot be sure since my opponent will or may adapt his direction during the throw or attempt to transform his initial throw into makikomi. When as a referee considering what to do with an action the intent is often critical. If I accidentally hit my opponent with the elbow in his face, it is no penalty. If I intentioally hit him in the face it will be penalty. Under the old rules, if I intentionally stepped out of the red border it was a penalty, if it occurred as a natural reaction of action/reaction it was nothing. Whilst attempting to turn out of a throw is intentional, the front landing usually is not and I would strongly disagree that in that context one should penalize the mere consequence of something that is not the intent.

    Another thing that you have to take in mind that because of two reasons (1. the current rules, 2. the insufficient insight/experience of the referees) it is unwise to apply kaeshi-waza (particularly in sen-no-sen or sen-sens-no-sen) where I counter your throw with either a sutemi-waza or a newaza technique that has me land on my back, because virtually all referees will mistakenly believe that the reason I am on back is because you threw my on your back, if even if I delay the action somewhat. In other words beautiful action/reaction judo may cause you to lose the fight. Landing on the side or front is therefore a lot safer in terms of avoiding the score going to the wrong judoka. I got burnt with this once, I think it was when I was doing tsukinami-shiai towards nidan. I applied a kaeshi-waza technique that I had learnt just a couple of weeks earlier from the venerable Marcel Clause, namely sumi-gaeshi as a response to tai-otoshi. I actually delayed the step over my opponent's stretched-out leg before I threw myself on my back and cleanly threw my opponent flat on his back. Guess what the outcome was ? Waza-ari for my opponent, and yes, the referee was an EJU-referee (the classification IJF-A and IJF-B did not yet exist in those days; IJF is what now is IJF-A, and EJU or UEJ was what now is IJF-B). I felt horrendous because I had dominated the fight and it was beautiful action, and I felt horrendous seeing my opponent's supporters jump up cheering. If I had been in my opponent's place I would have walked up to the referee and told him who had thrown whom. However, my opponent thought knowing very well what happened was all to glad with this wrong score. I tried to protest, but the ref. got immediately angry, and since in those days it was rare to have three refs on the tatami, so there was only one of them, it was useless. Funny detail ... the referee was known by the old guard (such as my own sensei) to have maffia ties (he always wore dark glasses, sometimes also a hat), so in hindsight it is perhaps OK that in the end I swallowed it. I was not happy though since it was my first fight of the line, which meant I did not get to do any other fights and had to return home. I did not owe a car, it was Sunday and it was also a very long walk towards the bus stop (like more than an hour walk). Remarkably though ... when I was walking that ref. passed me by car (the contest in the mean time was over; I probably even waited until it did) and spontaneously offered me a lift. Maybe .. just maybe he knew what he had done and felt guilty. The man has now long passed away so the whole deal is now just part of the many judo stories which someone assembles over the years ... Anyhow, it illustrates my point on the context of how and why someone lands/can land/should land on whatever side of the body.

    Instead I would again like to make a case for the point of view that a referee should interfere as little as possible in a judo fight that is going on. It is only normal that when you try to throw someone that the person tries to do what judo offers him: action/reaction. It is exactly that what Mifune did so often and so diligently. Unfortunately, we're not all Mifune, and in reality our opponents will likely resist a bit more than in the famous Shingi Mifune movie, hence why attempting such action will oftentimes not be as nice and smooth but instead end in failure such as landing on your belly or face. But still when I initiate that counter action I am to some extent in control of that action but perhaps insufficiently to make the throw work. The fact that I am partially in control does, however, also imply that my opponent is not 100% in control which is proper reason why his action deserves a much lower score or no score at all. It therefore seems to me that what we are talking about here is a normal integral part of competitive judo or randori, not something demanding a penalty. But then again, it may very well be that the current IJF Refereeing Committee on the other hand precisely would get excited about even more penalties hence even more breaking up the normal course, style and rhythm of a judo contest, who knows.


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