E-Judo

Judo network and forum


    New Rules and Old Rules

    Share

    Tani Otoshi

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2013-03-05
    Age : 73
    Location : Maidstone

    New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by Tani Otoshi on Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:29 pm

    At the Dusseldorf Grand Prix press conference the following was recorded in InsideTheGames.biz news release:

    "Juan Carlos Barcos, the IJF's head refereeing director, claimed that the newly adapted refereeing rules were already having a positive effect on the sport.
    "Since the beginning of 2013, we already have records for 1,300 contests," he said. "The scoring level almost reaches 80 per cent, and the number of ippon has increased compared to last year.""


    I am a little worried by this statement as it is not easy to determine exactly what is considered an ippon. In a recent post on a judo blog I added the following reply:

    The first answer, by the blogger, is to an earlier answer by another to his initial post
    March 1, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Do you know it is more positive judo? German research suggests the judo is more negative. The IJF stats of 77% ippons has now been clouded by the revelation they were counting direct Hansoku Make as ippon.

    But it is not about the rules it is about the British implementation of them. Nine days is not long!
    Reply

    THIS IS MY ANSWER
    "David Finch
    March 2, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    We need to see the precise statistics for all recent international competitions to determine exactly what constitutes an ippon. In Germany Peter Seisenbacher, the new coach to the Azebaijan team, said that 7 of his players received hansoku-makes in their first match at the Budapest Open 2 weeks ago. Did he mean first international match or first contest? I am not sure.

    I have glanced at the PDF results and if you look at the Ippon.org site for that event you will see that disqualifications are recorded in two ways. As H for hansoku-make and s4 for 4 shidos and in each case the opponent is awarded an ippon. The statistics reveal that only 7 hansoku-makes were awarded while 779 shidos were awarded in in a total of 315 contests. Now, the shidos are not broken down as per player but per contest which means it is difficult to analyse quickly the full number of disqualifications from shidos as the results show 100 contests incurred between 4 and 7 shidos each. On the other hand the Statistics show that there were 195 ippons in the 315 contests equaling 62%.

    Now go back to the Athens Olympics which I think was the catalyst for the need to increase ippons and you will find a very different story. Obviously the two events are far from strictly comparable. Budapest was men only and the repercharge started at the quarter-finals whereas Athens was men and women and a full repercharge. Briefly, from my records Athens totaled 523 contests with an average of 57.87% ippons across the 14 weight categories with the highest at 67.74% (+78kgs) and lowest at 42.42% (u52kgs). Now this is the important bit; there were no hansoku-makes and only 8 disqualifications from 4 shidos.

    In the case of Budapest a quick count reveals there are 7 hansoku-makes AND 25 disqualifications from 4 shidos! If the disqualifications were counted as ippons then the true ippons would equal just 51.74% of the results. I am not a statistician but even if the Athens ippon winning contest total is adjusted to remove the 8 times 4 shido disqualifications we are actually going backwards. In my opinion the IJF refereeing commission needs to reconsider the direction it is traveling. Certainly 4 shidos and hansoku-make should not be counted as ippons the same as an uchi-mata throw or any other for that matter. Get that right and we might know how to truly improve ippon scoring techniques."

    I must add that certain items in the rule changes are definitely positive but keeping 4 shidos as a positive ippon for the opponent does not seem right to me when 3 shidos are not recorded as a wazari for the opponent. Winning with positive scoring is a step forward but hansoku-make should be recorded as something else and not an ippon comparable to an uchi-mata or juji-gatame ippon. Your thoughts?



    radzfman

    Posts : 35
    Join date : 2013-01-19

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by radzfman on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:15 am

    Barcos is dillusional. I can't wait to see the IOC decide to kick out Judo. Then we can go back to using the Goykyo in competition.
    avatar
    rjohnston411

    Posts : 109
    Join date : 2013-02-12
    Age : 30
    Location : Ontario

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by rjohnston411 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:45 am

    Although the newer rules had seemed to create more action in Paris and Dusseldorf, there were far too many dq's. It irritates me because all a smart tactician need do is apply pressure and you can win without ever making a single throw.

    Hanon

    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by Hanon on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:20 am

    I have written several times in the past that judo is the only sport I know of where one can win a world and Olympic title without actually winning one. In years gone by if one partner stepped out of the shiajp a chui was given, this was interpreted at the end of the fight as ones partner having a yuko? A negative being made a positive? In most sports one has disqualifications. If we are now at the point where a shido is accumulative and four of them equal a hansoku make how does that make an ippon for ones partner?

    There has to be penalties BUT the system is so open to abuse that to hold a gold medal because ones partner recived a shido is absurd. I would think in all full combat activities one should have to win with a positive score as in a throw or....

    The rules keep changing, less and less people are attracted to judo and yet we are being forced more than ever to conform to a system where judo has to appeal and be understood by the general public so judo is kept in the Olympics.

    As long as money is the key motivator involved with judo at the top then those of us at the working end of the line are always going to be jiggered.

    A shiai at that level should go on until a score is achieved. That could, at the very worst, also include yusei gachi.

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.

    Tani Otoshi

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2013-03-05
    Age : 73
    Location : Maidstone

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by Tani Otoshi on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:45 am

    Mike you are right.

    However there is another sport on the verge of getting into the Olympics and that is karate.

    When I first looked for a sport to drain me of energy in the early sixties I went to Crystal Palace and watched a Karate competition. I remember that in one of the matches the unconscious guy lying on the mat was declared the winner! That didn't seem right and I don't think the unconscious fighter was able to carry on.

    There again, if Ronda Rousey was still involved in judo and ignored the submission tap to her juji-gatame then she would be correctly disqualified and the one with the broken arm obviously could not carry on.

    David

    Kasrkin

    Posts : 6
    Join date : 2013-01-25

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by Kasrkin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:30 am

    Bit off topic, but I'd be extremely surprised if Karate made it into the Olympics, it's visually almost identical to TKD to your average TV viewer.

    As for on topic. I believe that Judo is simply just not a spectacle suited to the TV and the mass ignorance of the general public audience. It's like chess, a great watch to those that appreciate its subtleties, but pretty dry to outsiders.

    I agree that getting kicked out of the Olympics would have been great for Judo, maybe we can contact the 'Save Olympic Wrestling' campaign and organise a swap? Very Happy
    avatar
    FightingSpirit

    Posts : 62
    Join date : 2013-02-21
    Location : Va

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by FightingSpirit on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:22 pm

    Tani Otoshi,
    Although you claim not to be a statistician, your analysis is both sound and defendable... Your demand for open and transparent data (statistics) is spot on! You might not be a certified statistician, but you are certainly a very capable and astute Analyst!


    _________________
    Semper Fidelis
    "Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." Ronald Reagan
    avatar
    JudoMum

    Posts : 31
    Join date : 2012-12-29
    Location : England

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by JudoMum on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:46 pm

    Tani Otoshi wrote:...
    But it is not about the rules it is about the British implementation of them. Nine days is not long!

    Tell me about it!

    My kid is competing this Saturday - it was announced last Friday that a modified version of the new rules will be in use for this event.

    I know the refs need to experience the new rules in action to get used to it, but is this really the right platform? Our coaches feel there will be lots of "heated discussion" on points of rule, which may mar what is usually a very positive event for the kids involved, and that the 11th hour rule change is adding additional stress to kids who might well not have experienced an event/venue of this size before.

    I feel that perhaps the decision is not about the kids who are competing on the day. Why did they not combine ref training with say regional squad sessions - they could have run a mock comp with experienced players, and all out of the public eye and not affecting results or rankings....
    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by judoratt on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:32 am

    Haven't the coaches and players known these rules were comming for months? We have been working on the rules since they first came out in writing. It is up to the coaches to have the players ready. If your players are not ready don't look too far off the tatami. Smile
    avatar
    JudoMum

    Posts : 31
    Join date : 2012-12-29
    Location : England

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by JudoMum on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:00 am

    It is not the awareness that the rule change was coming that's the problem, it's the short notice implementation, lack of ref training/experience, and choice of event that could be seen to be troubling...
    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by judoratt on Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:11 am

    When the IJF rules came out it was announced that the Paris Grand slam two weeks ago would be the first event that the rules would be implemented in, and that they would used up to the would championships in Rio. It is up to the NGB's to implement the rules in a timely manner. With Rio comming in 6 months there is little time for the IJF wait for us to be ready for the change. As soon as the rules were out one needed to hit the ground running. Whether we are ready or even like the changes it doesn't matter to the IJF. This is a monumental task for the IJF to pull off in six months, and they won't wait for us.
    avatar
    JudoSensei

    Posts : 170
    Join date : 2013-01-04
    Location : California

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by JudoSensei on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:12 pm

    judoratt wrote: Haven't the coaches and players known these rules were comming for months? We have been working on the rules since they first came out in writing. It is up to the coaches to have the players ready. If your players are not ready don't look too far off the tatami. Smile

    That may be fine for world class athletes who frequently have to adapt to the whims of the referee commission, but it is not fair for juniors at the local tournament who have to deal with referees that have no idea how to enforce the new rules, coaches that don't study the inner workings of the IJF, and students who just want to do judo. The IJF rule changes don't translate well to local club level randori in most places, nor do they result in any consistency at local tournaments around the world.
    avatar
    JudoMum

    Posts : 31
    Join date : 2012-12-29
    Location : England

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by JudoMum on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:34 pm

    For the international members - the BJA are implementing the rules for the first time at the British Schools championships. This is an event for 10-18 year olds from which national squad members and national championship medallists are ineligible to enter - my understanding is that the event attracts a range of entrants, from those aiming for squad places, to those who are relatively low grade and inexperienced competitors. The decision to use the 'new' rules at this event was announced one week prior to it.
    avatar
    judoratt

    Posts : 309
    Join date : 2012-12-30
    Age : 60
    Location : Seattle

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by judoratt on Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:19 am

    [quote="JudoMum"]For the international members - the BJA are implementing the rules for the first time at the British Schools championships. This is an event for 10-18 year olds from which national squad members and national championship medallists are ineligible to enter - my understanding is that the event attracts a range of entrants, from those aiming for squad places, to those who are relatively low grade and inexperienced competitors. The decision to use the 'new' rules at this event was announced one week prior to it.[/quote

    Let us know how it goes.

    Sponsored content

    Re: New Rules and Old Rules

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:19 pm