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    What happened to the +/-?

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    heikojr

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    What happened to the +/-?

    Post by heikojr on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:19 am

    Did i miss something?

    heikojr
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    finarashi

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by finarashi on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:20 am

    only the revolution ...


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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Guest on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:21 am

    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr
    I noticed the same thing yesterday. I'm not in favor of the removal but I can understand why it was done especially if people just use it as a means to voice displeasure with a poster instead of the content. A lot of times if I agreed with a post I would just give a + instead of writing an actual reply expressing agreement.
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    ThePieman

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:16 am

    I'm not sure what has happened, there was a discussion about removing them but as far as I am aware there was a decision to leave them for now.


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    Stacey

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Stacey on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:26 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr
    I noticed the same thing yesterday. I'm not in favor of the removal but I can understand why it was done especially if people just use it as a means to voice displeasure with a poster instead of the content. A lot of times if I agreed with a post I would just give a + instead of writing an actual reply expressing agreement.

    ++
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    ThePieman

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:36 am

    Stacey wrote:
    Dave R. wrote:
    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr
    I noticed the same thing yesterday. I'm not in favor of the removal but I can understand why it was done especially if people just use it as a means to voice displeasure with a poster instead of the content. A lot of times if I agreed with a post I would just give a + instead of writing an actual reply expressing agreement.

    ++


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    Hanon

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:58 am

    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr

    They where being abused and becoming used as a personal hidden 'attack' rather than a genuine reflection of what the content of the post was.

    Such things are not needed by adults on such a forum. If one likes a post one can write a thank you. if one doesn't like the content of a post one should write a reply challenging said content.

    I think it un educational and negative to just pass a green or red mark for a post. Imagine ones reaction if teachers did this when marking a pupils work? Shocked

    I said from the start such a system would be abused and it was.

    Can't we act like the adults we are supposed to be and communicate with each other? Is such a concept so hard to understand?

    Mike


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    Stacey

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Stacey on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:11 am

    Hanon wrote:
    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr

    They where being abused and becoming used as a personal hidden 'attack' rather than a genuine reflection of what the content of the post was.

    Such things are not needed by adults on such a forum. If one likes a post one can write a thank you. if one doesn't like the content of a post one should write a reply challenging said content.

    I think it un educational and negative to just pass a green or red mark for a post. Imagine ones reaction if teachers did this when marking a pupils work? Shocked

    I said from the start such a system would be abused and it was.

    Can't we act like the adults we are supposed to be and communicate with each other? Is such a concept so hard to understand?

    Mike

    Um, that would be a P/NP in college. Plenty of classes are P/NP only, at least back when I took them. No commentary necessary, just a pass/ no pass. Also, I could opt to take specific classes for a P/NP grade instead of an A,B,C,D,F. Not that A,B,C,D,F really told me much of anything...... It's not like teachers from junior high on were actually required to comment on our work. They just graded it. Further, because I was a child of the '70's, and kids weren't supposed to get graded, my elementary teachers gave us S,I,Ns (satisfactory, improving, needs improvement). No commentary needed there, either. Come to think of it, I'm rather used to something of a +/- approach. Sometimes it was personal, but people were pretty blatant about it when it was personal.

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:20 am

    Stacey wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr

    They where being abused and becoming used as a personal hidden 'attack' rather than a genuine reflection of what the content of the post was.

    Such things are not needed by adults on such a forum. If one likes a post one can write a thank you. if one doesn't like the content of a post one should write a reply challenging said content.

    I think it un educational and negative to just pass a green or red mark for a post. Imagine ones reaction if teachers did this when marking a pupils work? Shocked

    I said from the start such a system would be abused and it was.

    Can't we act like the adults we are supposed to be and communicate with each other? Is such a concept so hard to understand?

    Mike

    Um, that would be a P/NP in college. Plenty of classes are P/NP only, at least back when I took them. No commentary necessary, just a pass/ no pass. Also, I could opt to take specific classes for a P/NP grade instead of an A,B,C,D,F. Not that A,B,C,D,F really told me much of anything...... It's not like teachers from junior high on were actually required to comment on our work. They just graded it. Further, because I was a child of the '70's, and kids weren't supposed to get graded, my elementary teachers gave us S,I,Ns (satisfactory, improving, needs improvement). No commentary needed there, either. Come to think of it, I'm rather used to something of a +/- approach. Sometimes it was personal, but people were pretty blatant about it when it was personal.

    Then how did you know what part of the content of your work was correct or incorrect and why?

    Education is based around learning with debate. Communication being a key stone to education.

    I recall a friend of mine at uni' being handed back an essay with " You appear to have ended this work in the same ignorance you began it". Not only did my friend give up his course but it caused hell in the group with the lecturer being removed from office some weeks later.

    We come here to share and learn not be graded into green and red marks. lets do what we are doing now and debate. Why would I give your reply some silly anonymous red mark when we can debate person to person? I thought a forum was all about debate?

    Mike


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    Stacey

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Stacey on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:25 am

    Hanon wrote:

    Then how did you know what part of the content of your work was correct or incorrect and why?

    Education is based around learning with debate. Communication being a key stone to education.

    I recall a friend of mine at uni' being handed back an essay with " You appear to have ended this work in the same ignorance you began it". Not only did my friend give up his course but it caused hell in the group with the lecturer being removed from office some weeks later.

    We come here to share and learn not be graded into green and red marks. lets do what we are doing now and debate. Why would I give your reply some silly anonymous red mark when we can debate person to person? I thought a forum was all about debate?

    Mike

    Never did. Rarely an essay would come back with anything more than a grade attached to it. Worse, some classes were graded solely on multiple choice tests. Figure it out for yourself seemed to be the motto (though I did have to admire the college professor who actually wrote on one of my papers, "you missed 38 days of class".

    Not saying there's not a place for the Socratic method, and this seems like a good place for it, but there also is a time and a place for basic agreement/disagreement. Sure, it sucks when it's just a personal attack, and not a commentary on the comment, but..... Perhaps that's why I used pretty much the "+" exclusively - agreement is just agreement. Disagreement requires commentary.
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    DCS

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by DCS on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:47 am

    Hanon wrote:I recall a friend of mine at uni' being handed back an essay with "You appear to have ended this work in the same ignorance you began it". Not only did my friend give up his course but it caused hell in the group with the lecturer being removed from office some weeks later.

    I hope the lecturer has no copyrigths.

    On topic: I concur with Dave R. (I'm not in favor of the removal but I can understand why it was done especially if people just use it as a means to voice displeasure with a poster instead of the content) but I'd like to point there seems to be much concern with e-image. OTOH, regardeless of the number of +/- a post has received, when the content is good is good and when is bs... is bs. The green/red % only indicates conformity not quality, knowledge, accuracy or even truth. This is a debate forum not an academic institution.



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    ThePieman

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by ThePieman on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:21 pm

    The +/- system was voted into use by the membership, and since its induction has been used positively in hundreds of threads, the fact that it might be seen by some to have been abused in one thread is little reason to remove the function completely in my opinion.

    This thread is not about whether or not to use the +/- function but rather what has happened to it, therefore, you are all off topic and can have a huge - from me! Very Happy


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    JudoSensei

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by JudoSensei on Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:33 pm

    Hanon wrote:
    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr

    They where being abused and becoming used as a personal hidden 'attack' rather than a genuine reflection of what the content of the post was.

    Such things are not needed by adults on such a forum. If one likes a post one can write a thank you. if one doesn't like the content of a post one should write a reply challenging said content.

    I think it un educational and negative to just pass a green or red mark for a post. Imagine ones reaction if teachers did this when marking a pupils work? Shocked

    I said from the start such a system would be abused and it was.

    Can't we act like the adults we are supposed to be and communicate with each other? Is such a concept so hard to understand?

    Mike

    What makes you think that someone's minus sign is an attack rather than a simple expression of disagreement with your post? Many members will hesitate to publicly challenge the opinions of high profile members with comments. I know you support anonymity in all other aspects of the forum, and this tool provides that anonymity to the average member who doesn't want to get involved in an argument. I have to think about it many times before even suggesting disagreement with you in a topic like this one. Many of us don't like that kind of open conflict, but don't mind expressing an opinion with a vote.
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    Jonesy

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:26 pm

    Lets get back to the real world. We all know the system is open to abuse, and is abused. It also in my view leads to inane debate about why this and why that. I am glad it has gone. This place is not a democracy and ultimately it is up to the chief Admin to decide having considered all sides of the argument. .

    Hanon

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:50 pm

    JudoSensei wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

    heikojr

    They where being abused and becoming used as a personal hidden 'attack' rather than a genuine reflection of what the content of the post was.

    Such things are not needed by adults on such a forum. If one likes a post one can write a thank you. if one doesn't like the content of a post one should write a reply challenging said content.

    I think it un educational and negative to just pass a green or red mark for a post. Imagine ones reaction if teachers did this when marking a pupils work? Shocked

    I said from the start such a system would be abused and it was.

    Can't we act like the adults we are supposed to be and communicate with each other? Is such a concept so hard to understand?

    Mike

    What makes you think that someone's minus sign is an attack rather than a simple expression of disagreement with your post? Many members will hesitate to publicly challenge the opinions of high profile members with comments. I know you support anonymity in all other aspects of the forum, and this tool provides that anonymity to the average member who doesn't want to get involved in an argument. I have to think about it many times before even suggesting disagreement with you in a topic like this one. Many of us don't like that kind of open conflict, but don't mind expressing an opinion with a vote.

    You are assuming most posters share your character traits?

    Mike


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    Quicksilver

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Quicksilver on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:17 pm

    Just as a suggestion; perhaps there should be a '+' option but not a '-' one? It is after all perfectly reasonable to agree with a post but not have any additional comments to make, in which case a '+' option is useful way to state this without cluttering the thread with unnecessary posts. However those that disagree with a given post enough to say so in some way presumably do, however, have some reason for this, in which case having to actually state it for discussion and debate rather than an anonymous '-' is both fair and potentially far more productive. This would negate the need for posts simply saying 'I agree' or '+ 1' (unless one wishes to make a specifically personal commendation) and would dramatically reduce the potential for abuse of the system.

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:25 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:Just as a suggestion; perhaps there should be a '+' option but not a '-' one? It is after all perfectly reasonable to agree with a post but not have any additional comments to make, in which case a '+' option is useful way to state this without cluttering the thread with unnecessary posts. However those that disagree with a given post enough to say so in some way presumably do, however, have some reason for this, in which case having to actually state it for discussion and debate rather than an anonymous '-' is both fair and potentially far more productive. This would negate the need for posts saying 'I agree' or '+ 1' unless one wishes to make a specifically personal commendation and dramatically reduce potential for abuse of the system.

    And those who are reluctant to voice a public opinion, as suggested by Judosensei, can make full use of the private, non public, PM system. Sounds like a winner to me.

    Mike


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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Guest on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:20 am

    Hanon wrote:
    JudoSensei wrote:

    What makes you think that someone's minus sign is an attack rather than a simple expression of disagreement with your post? Many members will hesitate to publicly challenge the opinions of high profile members with comments. I know you support anonymity in all other aspects of the forum, and this tool provides that anonymity to the average member who doesn't want to get involved in an argument. I have to think about it many times before even suggesting disagreement with you in a topic like this one. Many of us don't like that kind of open conflict, but don't mind expressing an opinion with a vote.

    You are assuming most posters share your character traits?

    Mike
    It sounds like you are assuming most posters don't share JudoSensei's character traits. I agree with what JudoSensei said and previously I would have simply given him a +. I would venture to guess the amount of people using it as an attack is minuscule. In my mind even if that wasn't the case I don't think it should matter. There will always be internet trolls who walk right up to that proverbial line when it comes to forum rules and not cross it. I would not be surprised if there are a number of sock-puppet accounts on this forum. The best way to deal with these people is to laugh at them. There will always be people who would give me a thumbs down for simply saying, "I had a great night at practice."
    On these forums you have always struck me to be a gentleman and a gentle man. Please don't let the haters bring you down.
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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:01 am

    Dave R. wrote: I would not be surprised if there are a number of sock-puppet accounts on this forum.



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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:02 am

    Dave R. wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    JudoSensei wrote:

    What makes you think that someone's minus sign is an attack rather than a simple expression of disagreement with your post? Many members will hesitate to publicly challenge the opinions of high profile members with comments. I know you support anonymity in all other aspects of the forum, and this tool provides that anonymity to the average member who doesn't want to get involved in an argument. I have to think about it many times before even suggesting disagreement with you in a topic like this one. Many of us don't like that kind of open conflict, but don't mind expressing an opinion with a vote.

    You are assuming most posters share your character traits?

    Mike
    It sounds like you are assuming most posters don't share JudoSensei's character traits. I agree with what JudoSensei said and previously I would have simply given him a +. I would venture to guess the amount of people using it as an attack is minuscule. In my mind even if that wasn't the case I don't think it should matter. There will always be internet trolls who walk right up to that proverbial line when it comes to forum rules and not cross it. I would not be surprised if there are a number of sock-puppet accounts on this forum. The best way to deal with these people is to laugh at them. There will always be people who would give me a thumbs down for simply saying, "I had a great night at practice."
    On these forums you have always struck me to be a gentleman and a gentle man. Please don't let the haters bring you down.


    Hi Dave

    A quote from Judosensei to me...

    "I have to think about it many times before even suggesting disagreement with you in a topic like this one. Many of us don't like that kind of open conflict, but don't mind expressing an opinion with a vote".[/quote]

    Even IF that is the case why not use the PM system? Further "don't like that kind of open conflict". The only way to resolve a conflict is through communication. Conflict management is a primary attribute learned from judo practice. No sane person likes conflict.

    Trolls did immense damage to the old JF. Never underestimate a troll. If we don't have the systems they can abuse then that greatly limits the damage a troll can do. Now rather than just randomly pass -'s the troll would have to reply and become seen for that they are.

    I don't understand, genuinely, why we need to have such systems? I have yet to read an argument for the -'s that is fair. If I have a problem with a post I will reply challenging the content with a counter argument? How can that be seen as anything but the correct course of action? Failing that Judosensei has the use of the PM system to avoid any possible public conflict. win win situation?

    Thank you for the kind complement. Had you used the + and not posted I would never have received your kind remarks. Cool

    Mike





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    heikojr

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by heikojr on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:45 am

    How is it that anyone here knows that the " - " is a personal attack rather than a disagreement in what the poster has written?

    If that is true, couldn't some people be giving out " + " to inflate people, too?

    I have used both " + " and " - " but not to show my dislike of a person. It is much easier for me to not engage with someone that i don't like. Maximum efficiency, minimum effort!

    I don't understand.

    Why is it acceptable to be hidden on screen, but not acceptable to be hidden on " + " and " - ".

    heikojr


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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:58 am

    heikojr wrote:How is it that anyone here knows that the " - " is a personal attack rather than a disagreement in what the poster has written?




    How can a clip of Geesink fighing kaminaga with NO other commentary deserve a negative? THAT is just one classic manner we know some posters abuse the system and make it personal.

    Look, if you guys and gals want and need your toys have them.

    How is the kata coming along? Any news from you?

    Regards,

    Mike


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    heikojr

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by heikojr on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:25 am

    Hanon wrote:
    How can a clip of Geesink fighing kaminaga with NO other commentary deserve a negative? THAT is just one classic manner we know some posters abuse the system and make it personal.

    Look, if you guys and gals want and need your toys have them.

    How is the kata coming along? Any news from you?

    Regards,

    Mike

    I have no idea why someone would give a clip like that a " - ". Maybe they don't like Cichorei Kano sensei, maybe they didn't like that the clip is in color, maybe they felt the match was unfair and Kaminaga couldn't win. Perhaps they just don't understand computers or the " + " " - " system. Who knows? But why would a simple " + " and " - " bother anyone so deeply?


    Actually the way i read "Look, if you guys and gals want and need your toys have them." bothers me more than if there were any number of " - " next to my name because it makes me feel as if Hanon sensei, someone who has high regard here, has given up on my ability to understand this issue and given up on listening to other side of the coin.

    Kata practice goes well. The whole club has been working on Ju-no-kata for about the last 3 weeks. Everyone has been enjoying it!

    I hope all is well!
    heikojr

    P.S. there is no way anyone will get me to understand why is it acceptable to be hidden on screen, but not acceptable to be hidden on " + " and " - ".


    Hanon

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Hanon on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:50 am

    heikojr wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    How can a clip of Geesink fighing kaminaga with NO other commentary deserve a negative? THAT is just one classic manner we know some posters abuse the system and make it personal.

    Look, if you guys and gals want and need your toys have them.

    How is the kata coming along? Any news from you?

    Regards,

    Mike

    I have no idea why someone would give a clip like that a " - ". Maybe they don't like Cichorei Kano sensei, maybe they didn't like that the clip is in color, maybe they felt the match was unfair and Kaminaga couldn't win. Perhaps they just don't understand computers or the " + " " - " system. Who knows? But why would a simple " + " and " - " bother anyone so deeply?


    Actually the way i read "Look, if you guys and gals want and need your toys have them." bothers me more than if there were any number of " - " next to my name because it makes me feel as if Hanon sensei, someone who has high regard here, has given up on my ability to understand this issue and given up on listening to other side of the coin.

    Kata practice goes well. The whole club has been working on Ju-no-kata for about the last 3 weeks. Everyone has been enjoying it!

    I hope all is well!
    heikojr

    P.S. there is no way anyone will get me to understand why is it acceptable to be hidden on screen, but not acceptable to be hidden on " + " and " - ".


    How I love ju np kata. Like a drug. One that builds not harms the mind and body.

    The answer to you PS can be found in the practice of ju no kata......Think about it...

    You are a darn good example of a judoka. Please remain so.

    I never give up on my friends...... I also help my enemies when they are in need. What can I do, I am a hopeless case.

    Please keep well and when you work out how the ju no kata can answer your question lets again debate in in another thread. A tip. Don't look for deep answers they are generally staring us in the face. This riddle is no exception.

    Did I hear correctly that you have been promoted in judo rank? Hmmmmmm Well done.

    Fond regards,

    Mike


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    Cichorei Kano

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    Re: What happened to the +/-?

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:18 pm

    This is what Kanô himself wrote:

    "To take still another instance, in Randori, we teach the learner, when he faces an opponent who is madly excited, to score a victory over him, not by directly resisting him with might and main, but by playing him till the very fury and power of the latter expends itself.

    The usefulness of this attitude in everyday transactions with others is patent. As is well known, no amount of reasoning could avail us when a person who is agitated as to seem to have lost his temper confronts us. All that we have to do in such a case is to wait until his passions wears itself out. All these teachings we learn from the practice of Randori. Their application to the conduct of daily affairs is a very interesting subject of study and is valuable as an intellectual training for young minds.

    I will finish my talk about the intellectual phase of Judo by referring shortly to the rational means of increasing knowledge and intellectual power. If we closely observe society, we notice everywhere the way in which we foolishly expend our energy in the acquisition of knowledge. All our surroundings are always giving us opportunities? Are we always making the best choice of books, magazines and newspapers we read? Do we not often find out that the energy which might have been spent for acquiring useful knowledge is often used for amassing knowledge which is prejudicial not only to self but also to society?

    Besides the acquisition of useful knowledge, we must endeavor to improve intellectual powers, such as memory, attention, observation, judgment, reasoning, imagination, etc. But this we should not do in a haphazard manner, but in accordance with psychological laws, so that the relation of those powers one with the other shall be well harmonized. It is only by faithfully following the principle of maximum efficiency, that is Judo, that we can achieve the object of rationally increasing our knowledge and intellectual power."
    (...)

    Ref.: Kanô J.: The contribution of judo to education. Journal of Health and Physical Education 3: 40, 1932.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:55 am; edited 1 time in total


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